Immigration reforms and future of Tier 1 (PSW)

fahmad · Post by **fahmad** » Sun Dec 19, 2010 10:35 pm

PaperPusher wrote:
Tier 4 wrote:
PaperPusher wrote:This is on the current application declaration:

I am aware that the rules and regulations governing Points Based System applications may change in the future and do not assume that the requirements covering anyÂ future applications will be the same.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... nform1.pdf

If people signed this sort of declaration, then it seems they declared they were aware the rules may change.
Who said they canâ€™t change, they can change for prospective students / future applicants.

They clearly mention future application not current students. Other wise it could be like this:

I am aware that the rules and regulations governing Points Based System applications may change at any time during the current leave and do not assume that the terms of your current point base category will remain the same.

Got it?
I give up. I take it you are not studying a subject like law or philosophy. Perhaps there is a language barrier here.

"Any future application" seems pretty all encompassing to me.

Yet again, I will have to quote the HSMP precedent.

Please read this http://russian.gherson.com/pdf/Successf ... hanges.pdf

The judicial review was not based on entirely on laws because UK immigration laws are complex, and to some point 'contradict' themselves with other laws in the country. The judge outweighed reasons to favour the migrant instead of the UKBA/SSHD due to this fact. [Btw, HSMP holders were required to sign similar declaration on their application form, just so you know]

And like I have said EARLIER, any legal case in the courts i.e. even in property one can always challenge it in the courts. A tenancy agreement can be challenged in courts if it is unfair, despite it is signed. So you can sign but again its up to the solicitors to prove a strong case of unfairness and for the judiciary to decide.

It's true the government can do anything they want. It's true people were made to sign this declaration - but to be really honest, did they have a choice not to? Would their initial application be processed if not? So technically it's more of a 'threat' and disposal of liability from the UKBA part of the game.

But I think this will be my last time commenting on the negative aspect of this thread. It is because we are all trying to save the PSW not giving up. We do not need negativity but more of positive motivation. We will try our best and not dampened by quarters trying to lower our morale.

I will be more interested to follow up with people who are suggesting ways to get our message across to win this cause. I will be more intrested for people coming out and getting involved to champion this issue. I'd rather not comment or reply to those trying to demotivate us. What's the point, even? Wasting my energy and brain cells when I can put to better use in generating creative solutions to the problem at hand.

Post by **PaperPusher** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 12:55 am

Being helpful doesn't necessarily mean agreeing with everything someone says.

The HSMP Forum Ltd case was allowed because certain people on the HSMP scheme, but not all (it depended on the initial date of application) were told that any future changes would not apply to them.

There have been other similar challenges to changes in the Immigration Rules that have been lost because the individuals couldn't show that they had a legitimate expectation that the changes would not affect them.

All I am suggesting is that people direct their energies down a more productive path.

The HSMP Forum Ltd case doesn't mean what some people think it does.

This is the actual HSMP Forum Ltd case

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/2008/664.html

Post by **PaperPusher** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:08 am

And like I have said EARLIER, any legal case in the courts i.e. even in property one can always challenge it in the courts. A tenancy agreement can be challenged in courts if it is unfair, despite it is signed. So you can sign but again its up to the solicitors to prove a strong case of unfairness and for the judiciary to decide.

It's true the government can do anything they want. It's true people were made to sign this declaration - but to be really honest, did they have a choice not to? Would their initial application be processed if not? So technically it's more of a 'threat' and disposal of liability from the UKBA part of the game.

Making a false statement or declaration in connection with an application is a criminal offence. It doesn't ask if the applicant agrees that this is fair, but that they understand that there may be changes.

The government can change the Immigration Rules when it likes, that is the point of the legislation. The HSMP Forum Ltd case doesn't change that ability at all.

SSEF · Post by **SSEF** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:22 am

"It's true the government can do anything they want. It's true people were made to sign this declaration - but to be really honest, did they have a choice not to? Would their initial application be processed if not? So technically it's more of a 'threat' and disposal of liability from the UKBA part of the game"

First of all, people sign documents like this of their own free will, not because they are being "threatened" or becuase they were "made" to, they had a choice, no?. All contracts have Clauses which we may not agree with but we sign because the benefits outweigh the downsides to the contract, also contracts are subject to change, no? -

Immigration laws in Britain are not there to suit the immigrant, but to suit the country, same as in India where they have strict immigration rules so have Hungary, so have Australia, the US and Canada are in the process of changing theirs too, its a sign of the times, nobody actually forces people to leave their countries, its a choice, this is what many people do not understand.

luckylondon · Post by **luckylondon** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:59 am

well i wuld like to share an example....one of my frnd was here on PSW and after finishing time wanted to switch to Depandent to his wife....her wife's student visa was refused and got in appeal after 1 yr.....so atlast she manage to come on student visa and now he tried to switch but from new rules if u r Tier 4..then u need to go back to switch category......but he called home office to clear confusion & home office replied tht it depends on initial application when she applied and same rules will be applied at tht time....so it was possible for him to switch form here without leaving...

so moral of story is.....same way, any kind of new rules shuld be applied to new students only....in our time there was no such policy to abolish PSW, so we shuld be get Transitional time...

Post by **PaperPusher** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:36 pm

You had an opinion from a barrister in this thread who also said that the government can change the Immigration Rules.

mohan1616 · Post by **mohan1616** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 1:58 pm

I know these conservatives. This is age old policy. I want to reiterate concentrate on what to do for saving PSW.

They know we will go to court. They know we will win. They will divide our intrests again. they will reduce to PSW to 1 year. Some people will accept and some wont.Some people will go back not accepting 1 year PSW(as it will be waste of time).Generate the same revenue. Close PSW for students comming from next year. they will also close tier 1. Generate income from British students. All this will happen from March. (The same divide and rule policy).

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/ ... 123A567R&1

only 23 people have signed it. If this continues ........then .........

Post by **PaperPusher** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:02 pm

Why not fill in the consultation instead:

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... /students/

mohan1616 · Post by **mohan1616** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:06 pm

eveyone has done it. but if some has taken an initiative through below link it should be respected
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/ ... 123A567R&1

fibreman · Post by **fibreman** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 2:12 pm

Guys, this govt is getting beaten up by courts already... temporary cap has been decided to be unlawful.

Now, do they want another case? Another case to lose? If it is so, we have to go to court. I'm tired of this mockery.

It is not all about simple law here, like said, human rights are at stake. Many of us chose UK because of PSW, dedication of 3 years and a lot of money, it isn't easy.

As long as they don't divide us, I think we have a fair chance. It seems this decision was reached quite fast. There comes a time when u have to fight even if u sink, and give it the best shot.

Tier 4 · Post by **Tier 4** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:31 pm

PaperPusher wrote:I give up. I take it you are not studying a subject like law or philosophy.

PaperPusher wrote:You had an opinion from a barrister in this thread who also said that the government can change the Immigration Rules.

I thought you were giving up â€¦. Why not you stick to your statements?

Post by **PaperPusher** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 3:48 pm

"I give up" is also a statement of exasperation in British English. Imagine hands thrown in the air and snapped down, head raised, eyes looking upwards, that sort of expression. It is a colloquialism.

Post by **PaperPusher** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:14 pm

What does that have to do with whether the government can legally change the PSW Immigration Rules?

I could be a joker, clown and the right hand of Mr Green and still be correct.

The barrister posts as avjones, read back to the earlier posts for her contribution.

She refers to this case too:

Odelola (FC) v SSHD [2009] UKHL 25

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2008/308.html

fibreman · Post by **fibreman** » Mon Dec 20, 2010 11:29 pm

So, what use is it spending time here convincing us that we "have already lost"?

I understand very well that there are no guarantees whatsoever that we will get this.

I would say our case is more like MBA permit, where there was lobbying to get trans period. Reason is, there were implications for unis also, and many people affected.

We need someone here who will stand on our side and support us with arguments, not those who go against. Govt will do that anyway if it comes to that.

If one person is affected, or a small group, it's not the same compared to tens of thousands.

my name is khan · Post by **my name is khan** » Tue Dec 21, 2010 12:08 am

Hello guys, why you people are going out of subject. the main reason we are on this particuar threat is that what ever the government wants to do that will have to apply on new commers not on the existance students. we want transional arrangment and thats it we will fight our case on it no matterer what ever will be the result. i don't think that the judical system of this country will do any unjustice. whatever will be the result we will have to face tje reality.
so plz keep your hopes high for the comming year and work hard for your studies as well.

luckylondon · Post by **luckylondon** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:12 pm

we dnt have concern abut their limit...and procedures....we are just worried the promised made to us by universities and reason for choosing uk bcz of PSW.....so we shuldnt be affected by new policy....there shuld definitely some Transitional arangement for us...

Unikid · Post by **Unikid** » Thu Dec 23, 2010 9:16 pm

As I said, most placement job has been offered to students who will graduate 2011 and job contract is awaiting for their confirmation of acceptance before the end of Jan 2011. We till dont know any details of change of PSW ,therefore, new rule ,at least, should not cover from 2011.

Should anyone has good advice ?

lavezziisgod · Post by **lavezziisgod** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:44 am

Will/do the Home Office actually care about the students' job offers..? Plus, the PSW is open for students with or without job offers, so it would be unfair if students without job offers are debarred from applying for the PSW,,,

tall_funky · Post by **tall_funky** » Fri Dec 24, 2010 5:13 pm

Guy's lets not deviate from our only aim i.e asking for fairness.

Let's put this festive season and holidays to our good cause and try to prepare a logical/legal argument for our cause(assuming, if we need one!!).

I'm very much hopeful that UKBA will come out of its darkness and see the daylight and give us the Transitional Arrangement.

Just for records; UKBA has always given Transitional Arrangements where it is due.

Merry X'Mas and Happy New Year to everyone

tall_funky · Post by **tall_funky** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:35 pm

Everyone knows this is a dirty politics of conservatives just to appease ignorant voters.
Reducing few thousands skilled/highly skilled people will do long term damage to UK rather than doing anything good whatsoever.

Coming to the point: All we asking is for Transitional Arrangement and come what may we must get it.

fibreman · Post by **fibreman** » Mon Dec 27, 2010 7:58 pm

tall_funky wrote:Everyone knows this is a dirty politics of conservatives just to appease ignorant voters.
Reducing few thousands skilled/highly skilled people will do long term damage to UK rather than doing anything good whatsoever.

Coming to the point: All we asking is for Transitional Arrangement and come what may we must get it.

ofc... it is just a game for some voters. Even if you didn't know much, in a country of 60m, we are drop in a water... that threat to labor market is a laugh story.

Anyway, do you know if there are any preparations for possible legal actions?
We must be prepared for worst, assuming they don't give us trans period.

tall_funky · Post by **tall_funky** » Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:40 pm

Friends don't wait for Govt. to decide your destiny.

Remember "God helps those who help themselves"

All is not lost, I do have faith in fairness and legal system of this country.

Let's prepare for a long legal journey, if it comes to that!!

lavezziisgod · Post by **lavezziisgod** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:01 pm

I actually believe that a transitional arrangement will be made... I think that the PSW will be abolished only for students in academic year 2011-12 because they would have to maintain their reputation of being fair and just; Having said that, I am tearing my hair out over this at the moment...

cruxifixo · Post by **cruxifixo** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:18 am

22 December 2010

The UK Border Agency has stopped accepting Tier 1 (General) applications made overseas, from 00:01 on 23 December 2010. This is to ensure that we do not exceed the limit set by the UK government for approved Tier 1 (General) applications between 19 July 2010 and April 2011.

If you submitted an applications on or before 22 December 2010, this will be processed as normal. However, we have already announced that we will not decide any more Tier 1 (General) applications made overseas until January 2011.

Tier 1 (General) will not reopen for new applications overseas. If you have already obtained a Tier 1 (General) visa, your dependants can still apply.

Tier 1 (General) will remain open to applicants who are already in the UK until 5 April 2011. There will be transitional arrangements for some in-country applicants beyond 6 April 2011, and we will announce details of these in due course.

In November 2010, we published more information about the changes being introduced from April 2011.

I saw this while checking out the tier 1 route. Of particular interest in the statement highlighted in red which is a transitional arrangement for those applying for tier 1 in the UK. Finger cross maybe this will also be applicable to PSW.

tall_funky · Post by **tall_funky** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 7:06 pm

Guys Iâ€™m also hopeful of the transitional period just because of the English common law which works on precedent and we have a very strong precedent in MBA Provision TA.

Mr. Green must be knowing this all too well and thats why he will be giving us the TA.

P.S: My understanding of English law confines to common sense.

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Immigration reforms and future of Tier 1 (PSW)