exempt from financial requirement but spouse visa declined

[Amber]

If you send what I wrote above most recently to your solicitor she should be able to expand on the guidance notes and case law enough to show that your family unit can adequately maintain themselves. What I wrote above lays it out quite clearly, especially so for an immigration solicitor, you'll need to send the links to the guidance notes also, if you click on the blue writing it will open a web page with the guidance, you need to giver her that web page address. Other expenditure should not be asked for, what I wrote is how it should be assessed by the Judge, not in his own way as he feels it should be.

[Shondra Sharma]

@D4109215 could you check your inbox please

[Shondra Sharma]

@D4109215 could you check your inbox please

@D4109215 could you please check inbox again.

[jojochaachaa]

If you send what I wrote above most recently to your solicitor she should be able to expand on the guidance notes and case law enough to show that your family unit can adequately maintain themselves. What I wrote above lays it out quite clearly, especially so for an immigration solicitor, you'll need to send the links to the guidance notes also, if you click on the blue writing it will open a web page with the guidance, you need to giver her that web page address. Other expenditure should not be asked for, what I wrote is how it should be assessed by the Judge, not in his own way as he feels it should be.

Thanks very much amber the company have now assigned me with an immigration Barrister to attend with me on the day although I can not meet with him beforehand which I find strange I asked yesterday for a copy of the skeleton argument too look over they said I could not have it again seemed strange practice I will just have to hope for the best now many thanks for your help

[Amber]

I'm sure it will go much better this time. You should perhaps take a print out of what I wrote above and print the necessary guidance namely http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary which supports your case, highlighting chapters 5.1(a) and 5.2. Also take a copy of the Public Funds guidance http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary and highlight Page 22 re; Moroccan nationals and carer's allowance. Let us know how you get on.

[jojochaachaa]

I'm sure it will go much better this time. You should perhaps take a print out of what I wrote above and print the necessary guidance namely http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary which supports your case, highlighting chapters 5.1(a) and 5.2. Also take a copy of the Public Funds guidance http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary and highlight Page 22 re; Moroccan nationals and carer's allowance. Let us know how you get on.

you will be the first to know Amber just one concern when i looked at the skeleton argument yesterday she had prepared my incomings from 2012 and my outgoings from 2013 I highlighted this to her boss but he said it has been submitted and should be ok what do you think would this matter ? they are a strange firm indeed

[Amber]

In-comings and outgoing, what do you mean? This is not supposed to be a common financial statement, it is supposed to be laid out as per the above guidance at chapter 5.2, the same way as I laid it out. The ruling in Ahmed [benefits; proof of receipt; evidence] Bangladesh [2013] UKUT 84 [IAC] displayed how it should be laid out.

Therefore, staff considering an application for entry clearance, leave to
remain, further leave to remain or indefinite leave to remain must
demonstrate calculations detailing the actual financial position of the
applicant/sponsor in all cases that fall for refusal using the following formula:
A – B ≥ C
A minus B is greater than or equal to C.
Where:
A is the projected income (after deduction of income tax and national
insurance contributions);
B is what needs to be spent on accommodation; and
C is the amount of Income Support an equivalent British family of that size
can receive.

[jojochaachaa]

In-comings and outgoing, what do you mean? This is not supposed to be a common financial statement, it is supposed to be laid out as per the above guidance at chapter 5.2, the same way as I laid it out. The ruling in Ahmed [benefits; proof of receipt; evidence] Bangladesh [2013] UKUT 84 [IAC] displayed how it should be laid out.

Therefore, staff considering an application for entry clearance, leave to
remain, further leave to remain or indefinite leave to remain must
demonstrate calculations detailing the actual financial position of the
applicant/sponsor in all cases that fall for refusal using the following formula:
A – B ≥ C
A minus B is greater than or equal to C.
Where:
A is the projected income (after deduction of income tax and national
insurance contributions);
B is what needs to be spent on accommodation; and
C is the amount of Income Support an equivalent British family of that size
can receive.

yes she has printed the Ahmed case out and one called yarce too but judge has asked for the case laws regarding each benifit would these examples cover that ? what I meant is when she submitted my ingoings and outgoings in general she used 2 different years so they did not marry up if you get me ? she defo had the Ahmed case printed up I seen that so maybe I should just have a little faith in them as I wuite clearly do not know what I am talking about lol , x

[Amber]

Yes they are the cases, hopefully it will be well laid out. The Judge should look at chapter 5.1(a) of the guidance as that clearly states that benefit income can be used as income and it does not exclude any benefit at all.

[jojochaachaa]

Yes they are the cases, hopefully it will be well laid out. The Judge should look at chapter 5.1(a) of the guidance as that clearly states that benefit income can be used as income and it does not exclude any benefit at all.

thats reassuring to hear I hope the Barrister knows his stuff is it normal for me not to meet him prior to the appeal?

[Amber]

Yes, try not to worry.

[jojochaachaa]

Yes, try not to worry.

I have managed to have a conference call with the barrister on tuesday amber I have heard that some of the laws have been altered this week im not sure that this will affect me at all ? (MM and others N british children and zh tanzanier had been mentioned) Im so confusedis there anything you think I should make crystal clear to the barrister as this is the last time I will have chance to get any advice prior to the appeal for example should my sons statement of sen be submitted do you think ? or is it just the ahmed abc formula also do you think that it will matter that the judge has asked for my outgoings incomings and she has submitted these from 2 different years obviously I am nervous as I was so badly let down last time and this is our last chance, I want to make sure I go there fully prepared

many thanks once again

Joanna

[Amber]

Hi Joanna,

So long as the case is set out as we discussed earlier your appeal should succeed. If the judge starts to look at other non relevant outgoings like housekeeping, and takes this into account, you'll have grounds to appeal any unfavourable decision as s(he) will have erred.

I am wholly optimistic that if you show the judge the guidance and the cases the case will succeed.

Best of luck.

[jojochaachaa]

Hi Joanna,

So long as the case is set out as we discussed earlier your appeal should succeed. If the judge starts to look at other non relevant outgoings like housekeeping, and takes this into account, you'll have grounds to appeal any unfavourable decision as s(he) will have erred.

I am wholly optimistic that if you show the judge the guidance and the cases the case will succeed.

Best of luck.

Hello Amber ,
just in from my meeting with the barrister which was over the phone, he seems very sketchy on which benifits can be used and where we have found this information I told him to look under 5.1 a but he seemed to be of the understanding that dla can be used which I told him is not the case. I showed him via e mail your printout but he wanted to know where excactly did you get the information re which benifits can be used, do you have a link for this please he also which has confused me asked me to find out that when my husband is here and earning how much my housing and council tax benifit will go down by , I did go and ask but they are not 100% sure but fir sure it will go down this again has me in a spin as its not what the judge asked for ? do you have a link to the pages where it says what benifits can be used ?and is this with the new law post jul 2012?

would you be able to send this I have one week before appeal

Much thanks in advance as I know you have helped me so much

[Amber]

The guidance (click) at 5.1 states that Benefit income can be included, it does not state any exclusions therefore, all your benefit income can be included. The DLA is for your children's care needs hence why I suggested this should not be used. Although, it is paid to you, that is because you are the parent. When your spouse arrives your Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit should not decrease as you'll still be entitled to income support which allows full Housing and Council Tax Benefit.

That guidance is still valid post July 2012 for those who are exempt from the new financial requirement. Furthermore, as your spouse is a Moroccan national he is entitled to claim Carer's Allowance as per the aforementioned public funds guidance which I linked.

[jojochaachaa]

The guidance (click) at 5.1 states that Benefit income can be included, it does not state any exclusions therefore, all your benefit income can be included. The DLA is for your children's care needs hence why I suggested this should not be used. Although, it is paid to you, that is because you are the parent. When your spouse arrives your Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit should not decrease as you'll still be entitled to income support which allows full Housing and Council Tax Benefit.

That guidance is still valid post July 2012 for those who are exempt from the new financial requirement. Furthermore, as your spouse is a Moroccan national he is entitled to claim Carer's Allowance as per the aforementioned public funds guidance which I linked.

I have just been the one stop shop and they have told me that if my husband works 39 hours a week which is his projected income I wont be entitled to any housing or council tax benifits at all???

[Amber]

If he is working full time you wouldn't get Income Support and perhaps no council tax or housing benefit. But that's if he gets a job. At the moment the assumption should be based on your benefits and him claiming care's allowance as I am sure you will need help caring as opposed to him working full time. Though, the choice is obviously his.

[jojochaachaa]

If he is working full time you wouldn't get Income Support and perhaps no council tax or housing benefit. But that's if he gets a job. At the moment the assumption should be based on your benefits and him claiming care's allowance as I am sure you will need help caring as opposed to him working full time. Though, the choice is obviously his.

one of the judges directions was that the job offer at 39 hours was a massive reason that he would say yes to the visa so although it would be lovely having a second carer im afraid we have to go with that thread Amber at this time as we do not have a choice however we will have his projected income then to bring into the A b c Ahmed formula I opened up section 5.1 and it says that sources that are not to be permitted are Income
-
related benefits: Income Support, income
-
related Employment and Support
Allowance, Pension Credit, Housing Benefit,
Council Tax Benefit and income
-
based
Jobseeker‟s Allowance.

I can not see anywhere where it says that all benifits may be used unless im missing it

so sorry to be a pain its so close to appeal and i want to make sure we have a good shot

joannax

[Amber]

No benefits are excluded please see the guidance (click) at 5.1(a).

I think it's a misdirection to start to look at projected income and you can't possible know how it's going to affect the benefits unless you have hourly rates of pay and all the other details regarding benefits and disability elements etc..

The judge is erroneous to start to consider what s(he) thinks is relevant as the higher courts have already decided what is, you satisfy the test which is to adequately maintain and accommodate yourselves, the test is not to be full time employed as your are exempt.

It's seems you were stricken with a judge with poor knowledge and an adviser that did not do her homework.

Based on what I set out for you, the case should have no issues. If there was a refusal there would be clear grounds to appeal as the Judge would have erred. To look at the 'new cases' you mentioned I would need the case law citation [year] publication.

[jojochaachaa]

No benefits are excluded please see the guidance (click) at 5.1(a).

I think it's a misdirection to start to look at projected income and you can't possible know how it's going to affect the benefits unless you have hourly rates of pay and all the other details regarding benefits and disability elements etc..

The judge is erroneous to start to consider what s(he) thinks is relevant as the higher courts have already decided what is, you satisfy the test which is to adequately maintain and accommodate yourselves, the test is not to be full time employed as your are exempt.

It's seems you were stricken with a judge with poor knowledge and an adviser that did not do her homework.

Based on what I set out for you, the case should have no issues. If there was a refusal there would be clear grounds to appeal as the Judge would have erred. To look at the 'new cases' you mentioned I would need the case law citation [year] publication.

I know Amber and I wholeheartedly agree with you however one of the dtipulations in the argument where that we had a job offer which we do at 6.31 for 39 hours a week its wrong I agree we do not have an adviser now just a barrister and obviously he does not know the law arund which benifits can be used I have to say with my limited knowledge I have looked at 5 .1 and i cannot see where it says all benifits can be used either I guess I will have to go to the cab tommorow and check if I will loose all benifits with him working as that is what the barrister has asked me to find out so im in a pickle, however even if we lost hb and st ben we still would have his income of 246.09 a week to count on

im so sorry I must drive you crazy with my uncompetence but I really am trying to have the best case for next thursday that I can

much thanks

Jo

[Amber]

Don't worry about it. You would most certainly see a reduction in the benefits if your spouse worked full time. You would likely not be much better of with him working. The judge should not have stipulated that he must have a job offer and your adviser should have argued this point.

The most important thing is the guidance (click here please) which at page 2 states at 5.1(a):

In calculating whether the applicant can be adequately maintained, the decision
maker should follow the following steps:
(a) Establish the sponsor’s and/or applicant’s (if they are in the UK with
permission to work) current net income. The net income should be established
and if the income varies, an average should be calculated. Income from
benefits can be included as income.

I have highlighted the important text, no benefits are said to be excluded.

I think that starting to project income and the effect on benefits is fruitless as you satisfy adequate maintenance based on the benefits which can be included as income as per 5.1(a) and that your spouse can claim the Carer's Allowance when he arrives.

[jojochaachaa]

Don't worry about it. You would most certainly see a reduction in the benefits if your spouse worked full time. You would likely not be much better of with him working. The judge should not have stipulated that he must have a job offer and your adviser should have argued this point.

The most important thing is the guidance (click here please) which at page 2 states at 5.1(a):

In calculating whether the applicant can be adequately maintained, the decision
maker should follow the following steps:
(a) Establish the sponsor’s and/or applicant’s (if they are in the UK with

Thank you Very much Amber It does seem strange that the judge has asked for the job offer but im afraid this is what he has asked for and so I guess if we want my Hubby here what we have to go with unfortunatly


well this is what the barrister wants anyway my word here was me thinking if you had a solicitor barister my worry would be gone its actually not the case for me


thank you so much


jo
permission to work) current net income. The net income should be established
and if the income varies, an average should be calculated. Income from
benefits can be included as income.

I have highlighted the important text, no benefits are said to be excluded.

I think that starting to project income and the effect on benefits is fruitless as you satisfy adequate maintenance based on the benefits which can be included as income as per 5.1(a) and that your spouse can claim the Carer's Allowance when he arrives.

[Amber]

After reading the guidance (click) at page 2, paragraph 4 it is clear that:

Only employment income of the applicant if they are in the UK with permission to work can count towards the requirement to be adequately maintained. Job offers or the applicant’s prospects of employment will not be taken into account.

That is very clear and should be pointed out to your barrister.

Hence why I suggested forgetting about the job offer.

[jojochaachaa]

After reading the guidance (click) at page 2, paragraph 4 it is clear that:

Only employment income of the applicant if they are in the UK with permission to work can count towards the requirement to be adequately maintained. Job offers or the applicant’s prospects of employment will not be taken into account.

That is very clear and should be pointed out to your barrister.

Hence why I suggested forgetting about the job offer.

thanks for getting back I have already pointed this out to the barrister but unfortunatly the jusge has made it clear in his directions that he wants a the case laws on the benifits b that he wants more information hours pay etc on the job offer and he even asked could the prosprective employer be called !!!!

he also asked for my expenditur in monthly terms

Unfortunatly I will not have any contact with the barrister now until the morning of the appeal I am going to the citezens advice tommorow for a benifits calculation with his job offer in mind you see they have already made it clear there will be no hb or ctbenifit paid although my working families tax credit would go up by 200 a week

Its all making me quite ill im not sleeping eating and I just have high anxiety

Thank you so much for writing back your such a nice human being just a shame I never had someone like you representing me

much love

Jo xx

[Amber]

Well I think it's unacceptable that the judge is directing to what s(he) believes is relevant and ignoring the guidance and upper court decisions. If you're refused there are clear grounds for appeal as s(he) will have erred in law. Job prospects are not to be counted and only housing costs are relevant as the Income Support amounts are judge to meet housing costs (even if they don't). It is up to your legal rep to explain to the judge how the law should be applied. Hopefully your case will be successful without further hindrance.