EEA2/refused boarding the plane without schengen 2 holland

[republique]

But who decides which travel documentation is adequate?

If the law says (as in the case of the UK, but others too) that a family member will not be denied entry if the relationship can be proved it seems to me adequate travel documentation has been provided.

As I said before, there is no case against the airlines because they had reasonable grounds. Reasonable grounds will cover even if the documentation was adequate because reasonable grounds allows for human error. In the case mentionned in the thread, the airline called immigration who told them no, then they had reasonable grounds. Full Stop. All you can do is to educate the airlines so it doesn't happen again or if you know who to call exactly when the situation arises, then you should do so but you better check in early so you have time to do it. Prawo contacted solvit so that is a good number to have programmed in your mobile phone. I also suggested that you offer to give the airline a waiver meaning you confirm in writing that if immigration sends you back then you will be responsible for the ticket. This helps you at least face the immigration officer and get a name if it still goes wrong and this solves the airline's problem in being liable for return passage if immigration says no, then the airline is more likely to let you to board with that risk minimize.
As for Richard's point, while I am not sure it applies, the UK has opted out certain aspects of EU community understandings such as reciprocity of recognizing PR permits from other EU countries. It might be the reason for the issue he is frustrated about, however I couldn't be sure what was the exact problem was based on his comments.

[86ti]

I also suggested that you offer to give the airline a waiver meaning you confirm in writing that if immigration sends you back then you will be responsible for the ticket.

Any experience with that? How would you go about it? I suppose the ground personnel may not be that easy to convince?

[republique]

I also suggested that you offer to give the airline a waiver meaning you confirm in writing that if immigration sends you back then you will be responsible for the ticket.

Any experience with that? How would you go about it? I suppose the ground personnel may not be that easy to convince?

Like many people in life, it is up to you to make it work.
I am pretty tired of people who keep poo pooing suggestions when they haven't come up with one idea and seem to only have problems to complain about.

[Richard66]

My point is that the UK will not recognise a family member residence card issued by another state. The UK did not opt out of Directive 2004/38: it icorporated it badly, for which it is now answering before the European Court of Justice. it did , however, opt out of the Schengen Agreement.

Bear in mind that if Immigration or (in my case) an Embassy gives the airline wrong information you cannot go to court directly against Immigration or the Foreign Office. You would need to sue the airline and the airline would need to sue those who gave wrong information.

Now, take this case: on the Internet site of both Delta and Emirates (which use a third-party visa database, supposedly used by all airlines, I do not know) there is no longer any mention to the EEA FP, only to visas. If someone shows up at the airport, EU family member in tow and waiving an EEA FP and is denied bording, because the visa database says "visa required" and not "visa or EEA Family Permit required" what happens? Who is responsible?

I tried the waiver tactics with the airline, but it cut no ice, even if we already had return tickets.

I am not so sure about Solvit. In my case I can tell you they were no help at all. I would contact the local Solvit beforehand to see whose side they take.

[Richard66]

What legal value does a waiver like that have, anyway? Will it mean the airline will not be fined? I doubt it. I have lost count of the times I have signed documents with waivers (where I renounce this or that) that had no legal value whatsoever and cannot be enforced.

[republique]

What legal value does a waiver like that have, anyway? Will it mean the airline will not be fined? I doubt it. I have lost count of the times I have signed documents with waivers (where I renounce this or that) that had no legal value whatsoever and cannot be enforced.

And these were not waivers for payment of return flights for failing immigration muster?

I am not going to speak to the imaginary waivers that you are trying to make a point with in this thread as they are too vague to gain any value from and you are probably making it up to be provocative so I don't find it credible.

And your response has just highlighted my point, you have nothing constructive to offer as a way to deal with situation discussed in the thread, you just shoot down anything. You have a better idea, let's hear it.

[Richard66]

I was thinking of a clause in my home rental contract where I waive my right to be permanently resident there. Such a clause cannot be enforced as it is illegal. As this has nothing to do with the thread, I did not mention it.

And these were not waivers for payment of return flights for failing immigration muster?

How funny! You seem happy my wife and I cannot make it to the UK. Let us see who laughs last.

As I said before, you have your answer and you like it, so keep to it. Maybe you are a lawyer, I do not know, but I know I am and I can guarantee you this is exacly the procedure to follow in such cases. Why do you think I did not go after the UK Embassy in Rome?

In your attack, you forgot to answer my question:

Now, take this case: on the Internet site of both Delta and Emirates (which use a third-party visa database, supposedly used by all airlines, I do not know) there is no longer any mention to the EEA FP, only to visas. If someone shows up at the airport, EU family member in tow and waiving an EEA FP and is denied bording, because the visa database says "visa required" and not "visa or EEA Family Permit required" what happens? Who is responsible?

[republique]

I was thinking of a clause in my home rental contract where I waive my right to be permanently resident there. Such a clause cannot be enforced as it is illegal. As this has nothing to do with the thread, I did not mention it.

And these were not waivers for payment of return flights for failing immigration muster?

How funny! You seem happy my wife and I cannot make it to the UK. Let us see who laughs last.

As I said before, you have your answer and you like it, so keep to it. Maybe you are a lawyer, I do not know, but I know I am and I can guarantee you this is exacly the procedure to follow in such cases. Why do you think I did not go after the UK Embassy in Rome?

In your attack, you forgot to answer my question:

Now, take this case: on the Internet site of both Delta and Emirates (which use a third-party visa database, supposedly used by all airlines, I do not know) there is no longer any mention to the EEA FP, only to visas. If someone shows up at the airport, EU family member in tow and waiving an EEA FP and is denied bording, because the visa database says "visa required" and not "visa or EEA Family Permit required" what happens? Who is responsible?

Like I said you have no ideas.
Your rental clause example is really ridiculous to use and doesn't apply.
I dont know how you can presume to know how I feel and find it equally silly that you would throw that in there. It makes no sense.
And the question you want answered, if you are a lawyer, then you should know the answer.

[Richard66]

You are the one who has no ideas, nor any courtesy either, come to that.

Instead of giving me a clear answer you insult me.

Have fun and hope the thin ice doesn't break under you! This is the last I'm writing you. Adieu, Marianne!

[charles4u]

You guys dont need to argue or get upset on each other just for this stupid problems and complications from the this embassies or countries that believe to have the power to break the law.

Well it will be better if we all come together and bring up an idea to rsolve this and yes its true ..UK will not anwser or say anything even if u bring up a case against them and also yes airlines follow the instructions of the embassies and also whats written on there visa-service sites e.g delta or iata.


I still havent gotten a respond richard but I just feel its either they are adding more to the requirments or trying to cancel the EEA thing cus many people have complained about this, I dont just know what else to do. I really need an advise and help as am willing to relocate to any country within the EU or scandinavian region but dont know the full infos yet and how the job paying rate its like there...can someone advise me..

[fysicus]

I know from personal experience that Dutch immigration accepts a EU Residence Card as substitute for a visa. In the last twelve months my wife visited Holland (entering at Schiphol airport) three times in this way (one time even travelling alone without me, a Dutch national).
You can expect some delay at passport control; some of the staff there is inexperienced and you may be referred to a more senior officer. You will not be denied entry - the worst that can happen is that a Schengen visa for 15 days is issued on the spot.
My wife's case is more complicated than average because the Residence Card is a wet-ink stamp in her passport, not a sticker as is now used.
Make sure you have a copy of your marriage certificate and a printed copy of article 5 of directive 2004/38.
If airlines (I never had problems with KLM) or ferry operators deny boarding or severely harass you, make formal complaints and demand significant compensation. Of course, they always claim they follow rules imposed on them by immigration authorities, but this is simply not true!!

[republique]

You guys dont need to argue or get upset on each other just for this stupid problems and complications from the this embassies or countries that believe to have the power to break the law.

Well it will be better if we all come together and bring up an idea to rsolve this and yes its true ..UK will not anwser or say anything even if u bring up a case against them and also yes airlines follow the instructions of the embassies and also whats written on there visa-service sites e.g delta or iata.


I still havent gotten a respond richard but I just feel its either they are adding more to the requirments or trying to cancel the EEA thing cus many people have complained about this, I dont just know what else to do. I really need an advise and help as am willing to relocate to any country within the EU or scandinavian region but dont know the full infos yet and how the job paying rate its like there...can someone advise me..

Thanks Charles. It really wasn't a fight, it just seems like what's his name has become agressive and gets frustrated when faced with a challenge to come up with ideas and can't handle hearing anything contrary to his view.

[Richard66]

I wish I could give you a hand, Chalres, but I really only know about the situation in Italy and I am not sure this is the best place at the moment. I refer much more to the economic situation than to anything else.

I wrote to the Embassy on Rome two weeks ago, asking them if their position regarding family members has changed. As they have a bad habit of ignoring correspondence (they actually ignored a letter the Ombudsman sent them: i have this in writing), I sent copies of it to the European Parliament and to the European Commission (making sure the Embassy knows about it). As you will remember, I have raised this issue with those two bodies.

If airlines (I never had problems with KLM) or ferry operators deny boarding or severely harass you, make formal complaints and demand significant compensation. Of course, they always claim they follow rules imposed on them by immigration authorities, but this is simply not true!!

Much appreciated this, as you confirm what some of us are saying is possible. Do you know of anyone who has actually asked for compensation?

[Prawo]

[quote="Richard66"]Prawo! Where have you been all this time?]

Busy working most of the time.

In November more than 6 months late the required report form the European Commission on Directive 2004/38/EC is due.

[Richard66]

Busy life that of an immigration lawyer!

Will this report change anything?

My news is rahter old: I sent a petition to the European Parliament, which was accepted and referred to the European Commission. The complaint was also accepted, but it is now more than 8 months I have heard from either. I am writing to the European Ombudsman to ask him to find out what the problem is.

What might interest you is that I received an e-mail from the Rome Entry Clearance Officer in Rome, who confirms to me that no EEA FP is needed to enter the UK: it is needed by the carrier!

I shall be happy to forward this to you, if you are interested, together with the correpondence I have received from the EP and the EC.

[Richard66]

Another thing, Prawo: you probably read earlier about the controversy concerning denied boarding. According to you, the family member in possession of a residence card that accompanies or joins her family member that is denied boarding because she does not have a visa (or EEA FP), is this family member considered to be in possession of adequate travel documentation and boarding was denied wrongly or not?

Another point I have raised (and which also concerns Charles4u, who lives in Romania and needs to travel to the UK) is that in the airlines database there is no longer even mention to the UK's EEA FP, so, in theory, even someone in possession of such a document could be denied boarding.

[charles4u]

Another thing, Prawo: you probably read earlier about the controversy concerning denied boarding. According to you, the family member in possession of a residence card that accompanies or joins her family member that is denied boarding because she does not have a visa (or EEA FP), is this family member considered to be in possession of adequate travel documentation and boarding was denied wrongly or not?

Another point I have raised (and which also concerns Charles4u, who lives in Romania and needs to travel to the UK) is that in the airlines database there is no longer even mention to the UK's EEA FP, so, in theory, even someone in possession of such a document could be denied boarding.

Yes someone in my case will be denied boarding cus the airline will first check my passport to know my nationality and then check if I normally need a visa for UK or not and in my case I need one but also normally having a FAMILY MEMBER RESIDENCE CARD I shouldnt need a visa but the airline wont be sure or know that and they will follow the intruction on the site. VISA REQUIRED.

Some might even call the embassy to comfirm and surely the embassy will tell them I needed one and we all noticed something that from any UK embassy site there is nothing stating about EEA family permit and if having a FAMILY MEMBER CARD, so in other words they dont accept the card as a visa-free.

UK happens to have this complicated idea in the ways of writting or doing there things, They dont mention clearly things abt this visa or not in there embassy sites or some certain permit as they only base on nationality or the passport one holds. Well Thanks Richard for you words and I cant even go to Italy ..I prefare SCANDINAVIAN countries.

[Prawo]

Another thing, Prawo: you probably read earlier about the controversy concerning denied boarding. According to you, the family member in possession of a residence card that accompanies or joins her family member that is denied boarding because she does not have a visa (or EEA FP), is this family member considered to be in possession of adequate travel documentation and boarding was denied wrongly or not?

In my opinion you are absolutely right.
I managed to convince even Ryan Air (with very strict ID regulations) about this for my parents in law (as depending family members). However I must admit probably the most convincing argument for the man on teh other site of the telephone line was that I would be traveling together with them (and me being an immigration lawyer).

However its absurd anyone should be traveling with his or hers lawyer (though depending on the destination I would be willing to assist ).

Another point I have raised (and which also concerns Charles4u, who lives in Romania and needs to travel to the UK) is that in the airlines database there is no longer even mention to the UK's EEA FP, so, in theory, even someone in possession of such a document could be denied boarding.

I think airlines use different databases.
What about him traveling with KLM through Schiphol?

[Richard66]

Another thing, Prawo: you probably read earlier about the controversy concerning denied boarding. According to you, the family member in possession of a residence card that accompanies or joins her family member that is denied boarding because she does not have a visa (or EEA FP), is this family member considered to be in possession of adequate travel documentation and boarding was denied wrongly or not?


In my opinion you are absolutely right.

In other words, compensation could be asked from the airlines for denied boarding. Thank you for this confirmation. I should have sued Meridiana last year!

Are you saying that KLM in this case would allow a holder of a non-UK residence card to board? If this is so, this suggestion could be examined. I do not know about Charles4u's plans, but in our case, we should be travelling in May next year, if all goes well.

I am assuming I could count on your support as a lawyer in this case.

[republique]

Another thing, Prawo: you probably read earlier about the controversy concerning denied boarding. According to you, the family member in possession of a residence card that accompanies or joins her family member that is denied boarding because she does not have a visa (or EEA FP), is this family member considered to be in possession of adequate travel documentation and boarding was denied wrongly or not?


In my opinion you are absolutely right.

In other words, compensation could be asked from the airlines for denied boarding. Thank you for this confirmation. I should have sued Meridiana last year!

Are you saying that KLM in this case would allow a holder of a non-UK residence card to board? If this is so, this suggestion could be examined. I do not know about Charles4u's plans, but in our case, we should be travelling in May next year, if all goes well.

I am assuming I could count on your support as a lawyer in this case.

He did not say they could get compensation for denied boarding

[Richard66]

Some people will never admit defeat. Sigh

[republique]

Some people will never admit defeat. Sigh

And some remain delusional and see what they want to see.

[Richard66]

For Prawo:

Quote:
Another thing, Prawo: you probably read earlier about the controversy concerning denied boarding. According to you, the family member in possession of a residence card that accompanies or joins her family member that is denied boarding because she does not have a visa (or EEA FP), is this family member considered to be in possession of adequate travel documentation and boarding was denied wrongly or not?

In my opinion you are absolutely right.

In other words, compensation could be asked from the airlines for denied boarding. Thank you for this confirmation. I should have sued Meridiana last year!

Are you saying that KLM in this case would allow a holder of a non-UK residence card to board? If this is so, this suggestion could be examined. I do not know about Charles4u's plans, but in our case, we should be travelling in May next year, if all goes well.

I am assuming I could count on your support as a lawyer in this case.

[Prawo]

@richard66

I think you have a good chance.
Compensation would be more difficult than a refund of the tickets bought.
However as in all cases, usually it costs more if you have to go to court.
But starting with a goord letter to the airline would be worth.
And I have no idea what the reaction of the Italian court would be.

An insurrance for legal aid would be helpfull. Maybe take it now before your next flight?

I can give support with actions against KLM.

The worse case scenario would be your being denied boarding at Schiphol to the UK, because the part I-NL is within Schengen.
Preferably travel within office hours, and call me from the gate before you are send away

Once you arrive at Heathrow you get in. With or without my support.

[Richard66]

Thank you, Prawo, for your confirmation! As these events were in September 2007, I am not sure I still have the right to sue. What I shall do next time is to take out insurance against such an event.

If I remember, there are flights from Florence to Bristol, via Schiphol: I remember taking one. I even took the chance to call a friend of mine who lives near Utrecht!

I remember that with Meridiana, which denied my wife boarding, I actually started with a letter to them. I only bought the tickets after I received written confirmation that all documents were in order.

I shall certainly contact you some time before we leave Italy, so we can get ourselves organised.

I had asked you if you would be interested in reading the letters I received from the UK embassy in Rome, from the European Commission and from the European Parliament.

Today I shall send a letter to the Ombudsman, as I have not heard of our case for over 8 months.

Charles4u, why don't you contact Prawo? He might give you a hand.