naturalisation and work in India

basis · Post by **basis** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:24 pm

Thanks lemonness - very useful info here - should actually be part of the sticky on Overseas Citizenship above. I'll do that.

basis · Post by **basis** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 7:02 pm

Aali,

How is it going for you ? Were there any special procedures needed for you due to PIO either in employement or banking or immovable property etc.

Let's know about your experience and any tips on how to live and work as a PIO in India.

aali · Post by **aali** » Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:13 pm

hi all,

been away from the board for a while.

to answer basis' question, no, have not had any issue so far at all...though u mite find it difficult to get a loan for at leat 6 months, if you wish to take one for a car or something...most banks got a criterion that u should hv been living in india for the past 6 months... If you are in india as PIO (living/working, not as a visitor) you are considered a resident for all banking/tax purposes. that means u need to close your Non resident accounts and open resident a/cs. on the other hand u can use the investment avenues like PPF, NSC etc that has been denied to you as an NRI earlier...will keep u guys posted as and when i find new developments........cheers

basis · Post by **basis** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:58 am

Thanks Aali. Good information here.

So from your post it seems PIOs are truely treated as resident though not as citizen (no political rights). PIO is really equal to ILR in the UK which is not bad. So till OIC becomes operational PIO provides good alternate to work / live in India.

By the way is there a website where you got this info or you had to take advise from consultants.

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:08 am

In fact in many ways I suspect a PIO card is better than OIC in its current form.

With a PIO card you don't need a visa in your passport and just carry a separate card that looks like a passport. With an OIC you will need a U visa on your passport ( and hence have to keep submitting your passport every time it is renewed). You get unlimited residence and working rights in India but also get British consular protection should that be necessary. With OIC you don't have access to that. The only difference is that you have to register if you stay for longer than 6 months at a time with a PIO card - that's not a huge issue to me. Also with a PIO you don't have a route to regaining full Indian citizenship if you want in the future - you'd have to convert to OCI to do that. All in all, I suspect for most people the OCI proposition isn't really that strong - PIO cards are good enough.

You are right , it is somewhat like an ILR with a crucial difference - you don't have to ever be resident in India and there are no rules about how much time you need to spend there to keep the status etc. It's basically a right of abode equivalent.

basis · Post by **basis** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 9:26 am

Agree lemess.

I had posted this earlier but just wanted to check whether anyone has any view on following -

Does anyone know what it the status of a person in respect of Indian employment between the time one acquired UK citizenship (the time when an existing Indian citizen will loose the Indian citizenship) and the time when one gets PIO card. To give an example -

X takes oath on 10th Nov
X gat UK passport on 11th Nov
X applies for PIO on 17th Nov
X receives PIO on 30th Nov

If X is in employment of an Indian company (deputed to the UK) then from 10th Nov to 30th Nov what's the status of X in terms of employment with the Indian compay.

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:13 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by 'status' of the person. Do you mean employment status, immigration status or something else ?

As long as his employment does not contravene any immigration rules wherever he is working why should the issue even be material ?
Why should someone acquiring british citizenship and working for a UK office create any issues for status ? It may be an issue if the person were employed in India for the intermediate period. In most jurisdicions employment of a person is related to their physical presence in the country so I can't imagine working and being outside India and being employed by an Indian company in any way contravenes Indian immigration law. I would assume an Indian company is able to hire local staff in foreign countries as it sees fit and you would simply be one more such local hire. There are certainly no bars against this as far as I know. Of course, the key issue if whether any immigrtaion laws are being violated.

basis · Post by **basis** » Wed Nov 30, 2005 8:47 am

thanks for your views. I understand where you are coming from and agree with that. I am certain that no immigration law is violated here as the person is physically out of India during the time.

However, the question is in case the person still is on Indian Payroll as well as being on UK payroll (i.e. his core / base employment is in India but has been merely deputed abroad). Even in that case physical presence takes precedence or not ?

Not sure whether I am able to express the point clearly.

aali · Post by **aali** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 3:46 am

basis,

i spoke to consultants as well as bankers themselves. The questions were a bit tough for them , because there is a bit of grey in there. Anyway the gist of it is, if you are working /living in india, you are considered to be a resident for all these purposes...

Agree with lameness. Looks like PIO is aood option for many compared to OCI, depending on the circumstances...

cheers..

basis · Post by **basis** » Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:06 pm

Thanks Aali. I hope there is more clarity on these aspects in the days to come. May be hope in vain. Have you met any other PIO working / living in India.

basis · Post by **basis** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 5:51 am

If you are a PIO card holder do you need to take an employment visa from the FRRO to be able to take up employment in India ? Or are there any other formalities - I thought just having a PIO card is sufficient.

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Fri Jan 06, 2006 7:26 am

basis wrote:If you are a PIO card holder do you need to take an employment visa from the FRRO to be able to take up employment in India ? Or are there any other formalities - I thought just having a PIO card is sufficient.

You don't need any other visa - that's the whole point of the PIO card. You can just go there and work.

basis · Post by **basis** » Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:57 pm

Thanks lemess. Can the pio card holder start own business or work as a freelance professional. Or he /she needs only to be empoyed ?

basis · Post by **basis** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:57 pm

Ali - Are you planning to convert PIO to OCI within India?

Could you please share your experience so far - bank accounts, stock market investments, real estate - residential - what's the treatment for PIO card holders ?

Does anyone know whether PIOs can do their own business or work as contractor in India?

aali · Post by **aali** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:54 pm

Basis,

so far so good.

as imentioned in my earlier post, as long as you earn in india you are considered a resident for banking purpose, you can open normal bank accounts.

on the PIS investment scheme, the guys have confirmed nothing need to be done, i can continue as it is.

real estate- yes you can buy and own and sell property like any one else, except for agriculture land.

In fact the only issue I have experienced so far is you might find it difficult to get a bank loan/credit card as you are 1) a foreigner 2) have stayed in india for less than 6 months. Once your stay is more than 6 months these should be ok i guess, that is what the bankers say. So, if any of you guys are planning to move in as a pio, remember to have enough to buy your car on down payment! And the house can wait for a few months..!

cheers...

basis · Post by **basis** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:54 am

Thanks a ton Ali. By the way what's PIS?

And are you considering converting PIO to OCI ?

basis · Post by **basis** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:09 am

Hi Ali,

Can you please let us know followings based on your experience so far -

1. Do you have to pay taxes in the UK as well for incomes / gains in India ? Do you have to file return ?

2. Are you able to contribute to PF, pension schemes in India through your employment ?

3. Did you have to do any other process / special documentation other than PIO card to take up job in India.

4. Can you repay loans including housing loand out of your Indian salary?

Thanks in advance.

basis

aali · Post by **aali** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 4:30 am

basis,
here are the answers.

1. taxes - you pay taxes in either country , courtsey the double taxation treaties between both countries. Where you pay it depends on where you spend most of your time in that purticular year.

2. PF & Pension in india- yes , you do contribute. remember, you are a RESIDENT in india for all practical purposes. So all these things as well as other similar ones work exactly the way they did while you were a part of the indian system

3. No, just PIO card is enough, you need no additional documents to take up a job in india. however as a pio card holder you need to register with FRRO if your stay is more than 6 months.

4. Loans- Afraid I really do not know about this.

5. OCI - i am evaluating the pros and cons, intend to go slow at the moment. Can you share your views on pros and cons of PIO vs OCI please?

cheers..

basis · Post by **basis** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:31 am

Thanks a lot Aali. Which part of India are you working in currently ?

OCI - pros and cons I can think of. Other members please add to it

Pros

1. dont need to register with FRRO after 6 months. Although this is only once in a lifetime activity - you still need to keeo them update if your permanent address etc change
2. dont need to remember when PIO card expires (although it is long way away). OCI is lifelong visa
3. (Strangely enough...) ability to regain Indian citizenship after 5 years
4. No need to carry separate PIO card while doing immigrations
5. Psychologically and socially you may be better of telling people you are 'dual or overseas citizen'.
6. At the moment since you are in India - you may be able to get PIO to OCI conversion quicker because not many people would be in India who are on PIO. Costs for conversion to OCI are low even by Indian standards.

Cons
1. OCI may not yet clearly be defined in practical terms. So we would be the first to experiment. Personally don't think it would cause much of a difference
2. OCI may take away UK consular protection while in India due to misleading defininition of OCI by Indian authorities to the world that it is dual citizenship
3. Once the UK passport expires you will have to get the U visa (OCI sticker) transferred to new passport. Even for PIO you need to get the
PIO card amended if your passport specified in the PIO card expires.

basis · Post by **basis** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 7:54 am

aali wrote:Basis,

so far so good.

as imentioned in my earlier post, as long as you earn in india you are considered a resident for banking purpose, you can open normal bank accounts.

on the PIS investment scheme, the guys have confirmed nothing need to be done, i can continue as it is.
cheers...

Aali - I understand for PIS scheme one needs to have NRE / NRO account. If for banking purpose you are treated as resident then how can one continue to under PIS scheme.

That means PIO is considered as resident for banking purpose and non-resident for stock investment purpose...[/quote]

aali · Post by **aali** » Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:14 pm

Aali - I understand for PIS scheme one needs to have NRE / NRO account. If for banking purpose you are treated as resident then how can one continue to under PIS scheme.

That means PIO is considered as resident for banking purpose and non-resident for stock investment purpose...

[/quote]

A bit of grey area there actually, logically PIS should not be allowed as you are treated as a resident for all financial purposes, i m trying to get a hold on this one..

basis · Post by **basis** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:23 am

Aali - I enquired with a invesntment specialist and he told me there are only two categories Resident Indians and no-resident Indians.

Resident Indians cant use PIS and NRIs need to use PIS to make investments in the secondary market in India.

PIOs in India are treated as resident Indians for invesment purpose and hence cannot use PIS. They can directly open normal account. They should notify the change of status to the relevant banks, brokers.

rogerroger · Post by **rogerroger** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 8:42 pm

do you guys think one would be treated at par when applying for a job in india with an OCI instead of full indian citizenship?

lemess · Post by **lemess** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:00 am

Of course one would be. No one cares what version of the stamp you carry as long as you are legally allowed to work in India and are able to perform your job. PIO/OCI/XYZ - same diff.

basis · Post by **basis** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:03 pm

Lemess - Are you sure ? Do you know anyone working in India with PIO other than Aali ?

Two other queries -

Can a PIO / OIC be self-eployed in India ? Can they start a business of their own ?

Are the restrictions on PIOs - e.g. board level appointments etc are applicable for OCIs as well ?

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naturalisation and work in India