Irish Government unfair to Spouse of Irish National

[Obie]

Walrusgumble, i think you cannot simply disregard acme4242's point as overreaction, or simply say it does not happen in practice, even though you know perfectly well, that these compassionate powers that you allege the minister exercisie in favour of Irish national non-EEA spouses are not explicitly enacted in any acts of parliament.

It is common knowledge, that the Irish state does not provide any legal certainty for Spouses of Irish national. To compare the EU directive and its legal safeguards for spouses in the Event of death or divorce of the Union Citizen to that of the irish system , is quite frankly laughable, if the impact on the victims of the Irish system were not so devastating.

A friend of mine was telling me about his experience, when he went to obtains a Stamp 4 as spouse of Irish national, that he was told that this leave is only valid if he continues to stay in a consisting relationship with his wife, and if and when the marriage cease to be subsisting, he will be expected to leave the state.

In circumstance like his, if his genuine marriage comes to an end, he will be expected to leave, even if he has put down formidable roots, even if the marrigae ended for no fault of his. In such circumstance , the spouses will be exposed to abuse, and this is not acceptable in an advance western state ( at least what Ireland purport to be ).

Another down side to these rules not being enacted, is that if an when immigration becomes a hot issue, these people will be in a very vulnerable position, in an attempt by the Irish government to show toughness.

This is a very serious problem, that needs to be acknowledge and dealt with fearly with the utmost urgency.

Even the EU courts are aware of this. In a recent opinion the advocate general acknowledge acknowledge that this level of reverse discrimination seem in memberstate cannot continue.
It seriously undermine the authority of the European Community.

[fatty patty]

2. mcdonalds and immigrants: well, its it simple, you would if you enter the said restuarant, see a person of the said nationality in a mcdonalds uniform, with a name tag, behind the counter, asking you what you would like to order, one would tend to understand that they are an employee. the same goes for resturants, pubs, cleaning staff, tesco etc. other than that, i never denied that immigrants do not or can not run their own business. but you really think the majority earn enough to be taxed for income tax? other than that eyes very much wide open

Before you were a civil servant now you are an accountant? leave it to me....that is my day job. Migrants have roughly contributed 3b to the economy through taxes and PRSI.

3. ifsc, yes i do as a matter of fact. between 1997-2005ish, 2 older brothers (one accountant, one auditor), 3 cousins (2 lawyers, one sales rep) and a good friend (civil engineer for a building contractor) i can assure you, with the exceptions of those from asia (indian,qutar, chinese, 2-3 korean, japanese) and us and european (few russians) there were not too many immigrants based there. certaintly not the amount you believe. personally, i had worked in various civil servant jobs in education and justice (not immigration) and had some dealings with people over there. (hell, get out of cs asap)

When did i say there was whole indian/chinese/japanese diaspora working there? a few among many is many! you watch nowadays after 2006 how many are there and you'll see quite a significant number working.

4. Intel/Google/Dell, i would not have bothered referring to this, had i noticed that this was discussed. but, do i know people working there? 2 housemates of the german nationality. fair enough this is hearsay, but they don't pay that well as you would imagine with skills and experience. whats the point having these groups who avail of the corporation tax if they are not employing irish. are you sure dell in limerick brought in mostly foreigners?

I worked for IBM and I know how much do foreigners/irish earn and let me assure you that there is no travesty of justice occuring there or any other multinational. Even if they are just here for corporation tax thats still paid in millions of euros to the exchequer so its a benefit not a curse.

ever deal with dell customer service? talking to an asian national far east, who has sh&t english and knows little (or pretends) about the product and goes through 5 minute charde before you get through to the people back in ireland. but, this could be turned the other way.

If its to cut the cost and maxmise profits...hell yeah, any business would. even home grown irish/brit IT companies outsourcing it to south/east asia. atleast the outsourced it guys arent that bad..but the thing annoys me that they have all IRISH/BRIT names! thank u for calling tech support my name is lorcan, how can i help (in indian accent)

5. you definitely are a blow in. famine? you know any irish people who were trained and skilled who went to the us in the 1970-1990's? yes work could be got, legally too, if you were pals of the gaa. but not neccessarily in the trade you wanted. just like many pole etc who are teachers, phd and master students etc doing lovely jobs here. not everyone aspires to working with a shovel and bricks and mortar. you take what you are given, and retrain. oh ye, then there is that little issue of (a) work visas (b) damn all jobs (c) difficulty getting visas since bush.

Yes i do know, graduated from trinity and london met uni working since 80s in NY with renewable energy crowd quite a big well paid irish diaspora. difficulty with poles/eastern eu here is that there education is in their native language which is no use in UK/Eire. They had to improve their english by taking on odd role and then move on. Then you could argue why do south asians and africans who have good english dont get good posts then? thats coz their passports dont allow, they had to get permits and many employers run away from this due to lengthy processes and hefty fees involved.

6. your next comment takes the biscuit. how does citing out the ills brought by the boom concern the policies of immgration that do not effect many irish people/ you intentionally are misquoting me. that comment refers to how the irish people have lost the run of themselves and became complacent. those were separate comments in separate paragraphs dealing with separate issues. but, to answer you now in the context that you put it: it is not to be up ones arse for setting out strict immigration controls so that a country can provide for its inhabitants in the future. ireland is simply trying to learn from the disasters that the english have down to their country years ago, to avoid facial outburst and clear segregation, and non integration,. this is a small country and does not have a past record of continued economic growth. it needs to tred carefully now when to close its doors (legally and compliance with eu law) when it cant take any more. as an english person, you would not be unfamilar with the words arrogance and up one's mule when people have discribed your country's people.
(for the record, that is not intended to be a dig at you or most english people, who are sound)

Ireland is signed upto EU, so it gotta follow EU rules and regulations and implement them fully and not a wee bit from here and wee bit from there. Every country as a soverign nation has the right to manage its own internal flows, no one is questioning that....what the problem is there is no transparency in the current system. Too much is relied upon the minister and under that cloak whatever can be done which is not the right way to go about it as a developed nation.

7. what am i going to do about it? i am concerned with who irish people and those who oridinarily reside in ireland are going to deal with this country. i am not for spending more tax payers money for a brutal department simply so x and b can now get their citizenship. they have waited 5 years, 2-3 years won't kill them if they really intend to live here. they aint going to be deported and pretty much have the same rights now than what they would have in the future (if they were threatened with deportation, thats a different matter, then i propose stamp 4 renewals in order for them to find work within 1 year and depending on their actual past social welfare contributions, some access to welfare which would not hurt their applications) they knew that it will take this long, so with regret they can't complain. but i would propose a more streamline method of conducting these applications as it would actually save money. i do not have a problem with the restrictions on crime and reliance on social welfare.

Rightly so, more important matters are like bailing out the banks and looking after quangos, that has to be dealt with? sure sure. You dont have to spend a single penny to speed up the processes in INIS. Problem is there is no accountability! Who gives a darn if a foreigner is whinging about his citizenship app or his immigration status? If immigrants have waited 5 years (work permit cases) and 3 years (irish spouses cases) 2-3 year won't kill them...absoulutely! Refused on being arrested, dealing and being a sponger...absolutely! BUT...there is a fair and proper way of going about it, people are refused nationality due to one overtook a granny doing 50km in a 100km zone on continous white line and got two points on the license . (hypothetically speaking). Problem is no one knows how long it takes...system is flawed to say the least. it needs accountability!

1. where did this country promise, gurantee one would definitely be allowed to stay after their visas expired?

2. where did this country promise, guarantee one would definitely get citizenship?

3. did ye not know about these problems before making a decision, if not, why not?

4. how does your country, past and present, treat immigrants when it comes to access to employment, social welfare, health services, tolerance of race, religion, different attitudes, immigration laws both domestically and eu? uk and france, if i recall are regular visitors to the echr and ecj on these issues (that is a response to another person's ridiculous notion in a previous thread that after ireland's .. i think second ever time before ecj on freemovement issues, (the first case grundig, ireland succeeded!) that it is regularly before eu court)

5. who told people who are not effected by eu law that they could bring parents, siblings uncles here on the basis of marriage to irish national, even eu law has its limits, if you can't proof that they were from the same "house hold" in country of origin (exclude one's rights under refugee act)

1. This country does promise/guarantee over work visas provided that they follow the system, which is correct, no problem with that.

2. This country doesn't guarantee citizenship.

3. Yes pretty much most people know about it before they make a decision as its stipulated its at minister's discretion. But to answer your point correctly no one is whinging on that fact...people are whinging coz there is no transparency... if the minister say look live 10 years on a permit on taxes, learn the irish language and sit a test up in galway/inisbofin, also sit an IELTS ... no one would have an issue with it ONCE its given in the time its supposed to be given in and that is .... 6-8 months max app processing.

4. Ireland is pretty much in par with other EU countries when it comes to accessing s/w & religious freedom. But not on access to employment and different attitudes towards immigrants... http://www.esri.ie/publications/search_ ... ml?id=3104. http://www.mrci.ie/news_events/document ... N_VIEW.pdf. This attitude fuels this mantra amongst immigrants that Irish are very two faced and or arrogant! And i tell you man i ask any african/south/east asian and even EU accession ones they say exactly the same. Ireland's immigration system is reactive not proactive like most public services, this has to change for the sake of the Irish and their guests who will either become their neighbour or oh look thats just a friend from timbaktu on facebook.

5. Parents/siblings yes definitely be and should be allowed. But cousins and uncles is a bit far fetched. But every case is different, what if one has a mentally handicapped cousin who has no one left but one to lookafter? This why i am saying do not treat everyone with same brush, there are exceptions.

guaranteed. no way in hell. you must proove that there is a subsisting marriage and actually live in ireland with spouse first, and refrain from crime. then you won't have problems. the legislation should also consider ensuring that marriage is subsisting at least 1-2 years after been granted citizenship. eu free movement has no effect on irish people unless one moves. look at article 29 of the constitution. reserve discrimination, yes i agree but within limits, paretns ok provided they are fully covered financially, and do not need to recourse to employment or welfare (for a certain period) . siblings/nephews etc that did not live with non eu spouse, no! that would be consistent with eu law

guaranteed Irish citizenship for all spouses of Irish citizens (of good character) provided they are married 3 years . fine make it 4 years if it pleases some one

by the way, dermot ahern is not even related to bertie ahern!!!!!!!!!! well done !

He is...did you not know that. dermot has 6 letters bertie has 6 letters....they are both aherns....and they have alot in common...INCOMPETENCE which is!

[fatty patty]

Did you forget thousands and thousands of international students who were allowed 20 hrs a week work but working full time, they are also getting classed as immigrants here in your statement i think.

No I never mentioned anything about students.

I did...

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2004/en/ ... print.html

3) Paragraph (h) of subsection (1) shall not apply to
an applicant for a certificate of naturalisation to
whom subsection (4) applies.

(b) that applicant’s spouse was in the public service

This tiny line exempts public service employees from the draconian discrimination that is put on Ordinary Irish Citizens families by the Irish Dept of Justice.

Literally this little line means a different law and privilege if one of your family is (or was) in the public service. This type of cronyism and self-service is a scandal. And such discrimination by a public service towards its national citizens is unheard of anywhere else in the world.

I think it might not be the case for everyone. I work in the public service and there has been no special exceptions for me.

Maybe there is in Citizenship, but one would assume if there are special exceptions for civil servants spouses citizenship applications that there would also be special exceptions for residency applications.

I am in fact taking the Minister for Justice to court over the refusal of my non-eu partners residency application.

I thought you applied as being an EU fam and not irish spouse? Should have declared them that you are irish could've helped...i dont know maybe?

By the way good luck with that...i sincerly hope you will win this case, god willing.

[walrusgumble]

Walrusgumble, i think you cannot simply disregard acme4242's point as overreaction, or simply say it does not happen in practice, even though you know perfectly well, that these compassionate powers that you allege the minister exercisie in favour of Irish national non-EEA spouses are not explicitly enacted in any acts of parliament.

It is common knowledge, that the Irish state does not provide any legal certainty for Spouses of Irish national. To compare the EU directive and its legal safeguards for spouses in the Event of death or divorce of the Union Citizen to that of the irish system , is quite frankly laughable, if the impact on the victims of the Irish system were not so devastating.

A friend of mine was telling me about his experience, when he went to obtains a Stamp 4 as spouse of Irish national, that he was told that this leave is only valid if he continues to stay in a consisting relationship with his wife, and if and when the marriage cease to be subsisting, he will be expected to leave the state.

In circumstance like his, if his genuine marriage comes to an end, he will be expected to leave, even if he has put down formidable roots, even if the marrigae ended for no fault of his. In such circumstance , the spouses will be exposed to abuse, and this is not acceptable in an advance western state ( at least what Ireland purport to be ).

Another down side to these rules not being enacted, is that if an when immigration becomes a hot issue, these people will be in a very vulnerable position, in an attempt by the Irish government to show toughness.

This is a very serious problem, that needs to be acknowledge and dealt with fearly with the utmost urgency.

Even the EU courts are aware of this. In a recent opinion the advocate general acknowledge acknowledge that this level of reverse discrimination seem in memberstate cannot continue.
It seriously undermine the authority of the European Community.

Firstly, raising fears, one's made by acme, where there is no legislation in place in one thing. It is another thing altogether making statements that are not in fact accurate. Some statements were made without any back up or care. But I agree with you on principle. The reality is this: If you have lived legally in this State for roughly over 2 years, on basis of marriage, then, provided by have work, and the minister was satisified every thing was legit, it will be difficult to be removed. The Minister will tend to apply similar provisions as to the Directive. You are well aware of advises/comments given to other posters who were in similar position.

Its common knowledge that if one is a failed asylum seeker and then gets married etc it is almost certain that they won't get rights and you know it. So there is some certainty.

Have there been reported cases that the assertions raised by acme have occurred? THis site, would probably be the first to know. The department make it clear on their website that if one has a deportation order, they may forget hoping to get status if it occurred before marriage. If you look around at www.bailii.org and courts.ie you will see that Irish case law has dealt with these matters frequently (ie residency for non eu married to Irish) You will also be well aware of the ECtHR cases that Ireland so loveningly apply to justify their reasons. So basically, its not neccessarly the case that people are left in the learch (but yes, I accept, not every one is going to be able to afford lawyers) The legislation may not neccessary apply to all situations anyway , I bet you Irish legislation would be left open to a number of interpretations in order to allow the Minister to decide whether or not he will allow asylum seekers / illegals to marry. Even with legislation, I do not see any Minister, particularily now, allowing Metock type situation. I do not see the Minister allowing for reunification of extended family members who never lived with the Non EU spouse. They will likely follow similar English cases on that particular point, they the House of Lords (or the Immigration board, not sure) specifically looked at Metock and distinguished it on the basis that Metock was decided on the basis of a marriage only. Moylan was also different from Metock. I would not be one bit surprised that if a court in Europe or here in Ireland demanded that Moylan was reversed, there would be calls to make conditions for naturalisation ever harder. But that is speculative.


Where is the uncertainty regarding been told that he must be in subsisting marriage. Although one is not making an application for citizenship on that basis, one can draw reference to Section 15 A which requires subsisting marriage. Again, if someone is to be threatened with deportation, they can do a section 3 application (Please see the requirements as per the 1999 Immigration Act) If someone is only married for least than 2-3 years, what do you expect? One has very few links to the country and if one does not have a kid, or had a mortgage and other financial responsibilites etc here, then they could hardly expect to be allowed to stay. Same goes under the EU Directive. The reason why you say that there is inconsistency is because every case is decided on its own merits and facts. And very few cases will actually be the same.

I always get worried when i hear its no fault of their own, the other spouse might say something else. But again, I assure you, unless he / she is a complete lunatic, can't back up his case with proper documentation and evidence of joint finanical responsibilities, committed crime, relied on social, he or she will be safe enough if the marriage lasted at least 3 years (and / or solid evidence a pre martial relationship). Get your friend to some legal adviser or ngo. How formiddable was his /her roots? You mean family life right?

What do you mean, a spouse will be exposed to abuse? Domestic / mental? well then they should seek assistance from courts/gardaí/doctors etc and use this in any application for renewal of status on the basis of change of martial circumstances. Hindsight is a grand thing, you people shouldn't have rushed into marriages. Lets be honest, although there is nothing wrong per se, many genuine relationship would not have entered marriage as quickly if there was no immigration issues involved. The State is not responsible for people falling out with each other and you know this.

It might not be the government one needs to worry about, its the people themselves, again you know this. People should think more carefully about whether marriage is the right choice, because its not something, as you all well know, that can be entered and exited as simply as executing a divorce paper or separation deed. But yes, it is a very serious issue, particularily when you are dealing with Irish Citizens.

THe advocate can make all the noises he wants. Its the ECJ judges themselves that make the decisions. They can't interfere with matters that have nothing to do with them ie immigration laws that do not involve free movement. THe ECHR cases explicitly acknowledges that the member states can impose immigration rules on non eu nationals and nationals of the said country. Provided that they are proportionate and in the interest of the state, not much can be done by the court. The Minister is never going to give out reasons until he is before a court as he does not want some clever spark to find a way to get round whatever policy he has.

Would be interesting though, once and for all, that this is determined by a court, because I don't see legislation changing just yet. However, I do believe, Fine Gael's Alan Shatter (from an immigrant family and renowned family law specialist) and Brendan Durkin would certaintly push to make this position far more clearer. Considering it involves Irish Citizens, I think it would be more accepted than the line of metock cases.

[Monifé]

I thought you applied as being an EU fam and not irish spouse? Should have declared them that you are irish could've helped...i dont know maybe?

We did apply as EU fam because my partner has negative immigration history so we would have definitely been refused if we took the Irish national route.

And no, being Irish has not helped me, it is in fact why they refused our application.

Thanks for the good wishes.

[walrusgumble]

quote="fatty patty"]

2. mcdonalds and immigrants: well, its it simple, you would if you enter the said restuarant, see a person of the said nationality in a mcdonalds uniform, with a name tag, behind the counter, asking you what you would like to order, one would tend to understand that they are an employee. the same goes for resturants, pubs, cleaning staff, tesco etc. other than that, i never denied that immigrants do not or can not run their own business. but you really think the majority earn enough to be taxed for income tax? other than that eyes very much wide open

Before you were a civil servant now you are an accountant? leave it to me....that is my day job. Migrants have roughly contributed 3b to the economy through taxes and PRSI.

3. ifsc, yes i do as a matter of fact. between 1997-2005ish, 2 older brothers (one accountant, one auditor), 3 cousins (2 lawyers, one sales rep) and a good friend (civil engineer for a building contractor) i can assure you, with the exceptions of those from asia (indian,qutar, chinese, 2-3 korean, japanese) and us and european (few russians) there were not too many immigrants based there. certaintly not the amount you believe. personally, i had worked in various civil servant jobs in education and justice (not immigration) and had some dealings with people over there. (hell, get out of cs asap)

When did i say there was whole indian/chinese/japanese diaspora working there? a few among many is many! you watch nowadays after 2006 how many are there and you'll see quite a significant number working.

4. Intel/Google/Dell, i would not have bothered referring to this, had i noticed that this was discussed. but, do i know people working there? 2 housemates of the german nationality. fair enough this is hearsay, but they don't pay that well as you would imagine with skills and experience. whats the point having these groups who avail of the corporation tax if they are not employing irish. are you sure dell in limerick brought in mostly foreigners?

I worked for IBM and I know how much do foreigners/irish earn and let me assure you that there is no travesty of justice occuring there or any other multinational. Even if they are just here for corporation tax thats still paid in millions of euros to the exchequer so its a benefit not a curse.

ever deal with dell customer service? talking to an asian national far east, who has sh&t english and knows little (or pretends) about the product and goes through 5 minute charde before you get through to the people back in ireland. but, this could be turned the other way.

If its to cut the cost and maxmise profits...hell yeah, any business would. even home grown irish/brit IT companies outsourcing it to south/east asia. atleast the outsourced it guys arent that bad..but the thing annoys me that they have all IRISH/BRIT names! thank u for calling tech support my name is lorcan, how can i help (in indian accent)

5. you definitely are a blow in. famine? you know any irish people who were trained and skilled who went to the us in the 1970-1990's? yes work could be got, legally too, if you were pals of the gaa. but not neccessarily in the trade you wanted. just like many pole etc who are teachers, phd and master students etc doing lovely jobs here. not everyone aspires to working with a shovel and bricks and mortar. you take what you are given, and retrain. oh ye, then there is that little issue of (a) work visas (b) damn all jobs (c) difficulty getting visas since bush.

Yes i do know, graduated from trinity and london met uni working since 80s in NY with renewable energy crowd quite a big well paid irish diaspora. difficulty with poles/eastern eu here is that there education is in their native language which is no use in UK/Eire. They had to improve their english by taking on odd role and then move on. Then you could argue why do south asians and africans who have good english dont get good posts then? thats coz their passports dont allow, they had to get permits and many employers run away from this due to lengthy processes and hefty fees involved.

6. your next comment takes the biscuit. how does citing out the ills brought by the boom concern the policies of immgration that do not effect many irish people/ you intentionally are misquoting me. that comment refers to how the irish people have lost the run of themselves and became complacent. those were separate comments in separate paragraphs dealing with separate issues. but, to answer you now in the context that you put it: it is not to be up ones arse for setting out strict immigration controls so that a country can provide for its inhabitants in the future. ireland is simply trying to learn from the disasters that the english have down to their country years ago, to avoid facial outburst and clear segregation, and non integration,. this is a small country and does not have a past record of continued economic growth. it needs to tred carefully now when to close its doors (legally and compliance with eu law) when it cant take any more. as an english person, you would not be unfamilar with the words arrogance and up one's mule when people have discribed your country's people.
(for the record, that is not intended to be a dig at you or most english people, who are sound)

Ireland is signed upto EU, so it gotta follow EU rules and regulations and implement them fully and not a wee bit from here and wee bit from there. Every country as a soverign nation has the right to manage its own internal flows, no one is questioning that....what the problem is there is no transparency in the current system. Too much is relied upon the minister and under that cloak whatever can be done which is not the right way to go about it as a developed nation.

7. what am i going to do about it? i am concerned with who irish people and those who oridinarily reside in ireland are going to deal with this country. i am not for spending more tax payers money for a brutal department simply so x and b can now get their citizenship. they have waited 5 years, 2-3 years won't kill them if they really intend to live here. they aint going to be deported and pretty much have the same rights now than what they would have in the future (if they were threatened with deportation, thats a different matter, then i propose stamp 4 renewals in order for them to find work within 1 year and depending on their actual past social welfare contributions, some access to welfare which would not hurt their applications) they knew that it will take this long, so with regret they can't complain. but i would propose a more streamline method of conducting these applications as it would actually save money. i do not have a problem with the restrictions on crime and reliance on social welfare.

Rightly so, more important matters are like bailing out the banks and looking after quangos, that has to be dealt with? sure sure. You dont have to spend a single penny to speed up the processes in INIS. Problem is there is no accountability! Who gives a darn if a foreigner is whinging about his citizenship app or his immigration status? If immigrants have waited 5 years (work permit cases) and 3 years (irish spouses cases) 2-3 year won't kill them...absoulutely! Refused on being arrested, dealing and being a sponger...absolutely! BUT...there is a fair and proper way of going about it, people are refused nationality due to one overtook a granny doing 50km in a 100km zone on continous white line and got two points on the license . (hypothetically speaking). Problem is no one knows how long it takes...system is flawed to say the least. it needs accountability!

1. where did this country promise, gurantee one would definitely be allowed to stay after their visas expired?

2. where did this country promise, guarantee one would definitely get citizenship?

3. did ye not know about these problems before making a decision, if not, why not?

4. how does your country, past and present, treat immigrants when it comes to access to employment, social welfare, health services, tolerance of race, religion, different attitudes, immigration laws both domestically and eu? uk and france, if i recall are regular visitors to the echr and ecj on these issues (that is a response to another person's ridiculous notion in a previous thread that after ireland's .. i think second ever time before ecj on freemovement issues, (the first case grundig, ireland succeeded!) that it is regularly before eu court)

5. who told people who are not effected by eu law that they could bring parents, siblings uncles here on the basis of marriage to irish national, even eu law has its limits, if you can't proof that they were from the same "house hold" in country of origin (exclude one's rights under refugee act)

1. This country does promise/guarantee over work visas provided that they follow the system, which is correct, no problem with that.

2. This country doesn't guarantee citizenship.

3. Yes pretty much most people know about it before they make a decision as its stipulated its at minister's discretion. But to answer your point correctly no one is whinging on that fact...people are whinging coz there is no transparency... if the minister say look live 10 years on a permit on taxes, learn the irish language and sit a test up in galway/inisbofin, also sit an IELTS ... no one would have an issue with it ONCE its given in the time its supposed to be given in and that is .... 6-8 months max app processing.

4. Ireland is pretty much in par with other EU countries when it comes to accessing s/w & religious freedom. But not on access to employment and different attitudes towards immigrants... http://www.esri.ie/publications/search_ ... ml?id=3104. http://www.mrci.ie/news_events/document ... N_VIEW.pdf. This attitude fuels this mantra amongst immigrants that Irish are very two faced and or arrogant! And i tell you man i ask any african/south/east asian and even EU accession ones they say exactly the same. Ireland's immigration system is reactive not proactive like most public services, this has to change for the sake of the Irish and their guests who will either become their neighbour or oh look thats just a friend from timbaktu on facebook.

5. Parents/siblings yes definitely be and should be allowed. But cousins and uncles is a bit far fetched. But every case is different, what if one has a mentally handicapped cousin who has no one left but one to lookafter? This why i am saying do not treat everyone with same brush, there are exceptions.

guaranteed. no way in hell. you must proove that there is a subsisting marriage and actually live in ireland with spouse first, and refrain from crime. then you won't have problems. the legislation should also consider ensuring that marriage is subsisting at least 1-2 years after been granted citizenship. eu free movement has no effect on irish people unless one moves. look at article 29 of the constitution. reserve discrimination, yes i agree but within limits, paretns ok provided they are fully covered financially, and do not need to recourse to employment or welfare (for a certain period) . siblings/nephews etc that did not live with non eu spouse, no! that would be consistent with eu law

guaranteed Irish citizenship for all spouses of Irish citizens (of good character) provided they are married 3 years . fine make it 4 years if it pleases some one

by the way, dermot ahern is not even related to bertie ahern!!!!!!!!!! well done !

He is...did you not know that. dermot has 6 letters bertie has 6 letters....they are both aherns....and they have alot in common...INCOMPETENCE which is! [/quote]

Fair play patty

Where did I say I was an accountant, I was referring to my brothers. But you do realise that accountants, businesslawyers, it tech etc are and can be civil servants. Do you realise that there is no actual college / uni course for civil servant and staff will come from all academic / vocational backgrounds. And do you realise that many civil servants, particularily young ones, knowing that they won't go far up the ladder because auld ones still run the roast, will likely get out in double quick time. I was in the civil service after college for roughly 5 years. It was grand, great experience but had to move on and do my own thing

Funny enough Patty, you seem to have nothing to say in relation to that specific quote, regarding employees in chippers. 3 billion, right, PRSI? does that include those on minium wage? Is that including EU citizens like you? (Hardly refer EU citizens as immigrants now would you) I doubt it. Chinese are well known for working for themselves. I would not mind if you could actually produce some stats etc like before (at this point I ain't arguing or disputing) I would not mind comparing it to business permits allocation

You never mentioned anything about a dispora and i never suggested you were. I mentioned them, simply to state from my own knowledge, that that was, at least between that period the regular nationalities at the IFSC. I won't dispute that things changed after 2006. If you actually were capable enough of remembering what we are talking about as oppose to conveniently trying to shift the goal posts, i said, one, my people where gone by 2005, so anything thereafter I can't say. But far more importantly. You and to a more extent people around this site arrogantly, without foundation or actual knowledge of this country believed that the boom was as if it was all the immigrants work. I made it crystal clear the period of the real growth. The nationality issue at the IFSC was clearly referring to the period of 1997-2005. Anything thereafter is hardly substantial. It was you who suggested to Monife, a person in a postion who would know better, that her view was arrogant. It was simply an honest and reasonably accurate view

The issue of outsourcing, I want to make sure, if someone reads this, and does what many people on internet blogs tend to do ie quote or comment in a manner completely out of context - that issue is not an immigrants fault by the way. As as patty noted, it the business.

Nice to see you using the word "Éire" in the wrong way. Do you you call Germany Deutchesland when speaking the English language? Funny enough, why did the British have a tendancy to do that, particuarily when both countries were not too pally. I have to admit, I personally have not been to the States, so no point taking point in hearsay or stories from friends and relations.

Yes you are right Ireland must comply with all eu laws. But where were does it say that it must comply with the norms if issues like Citizenship of one's country don't have and will unlikely confer powers to the EU or ECHR? The ECHR provides a minium as you well know still gives a country some leeway when dealing with non eu nationals. Article 29 of our consitution is clear on this. the treaties are clear as to what the eu can and can do. Do remember, Ireland has a tendancy to be allowed to opt out of some protocols etc involving non eu citizens and schegen etc. You make it out that Ireland was the worse, try Denmark

Whats the story with the English and ministerial discretion? (look i accept that is a weak argument, so don't take that as a counter arguement) It is highly likely that any legislation even if expressed, will still have the same results

You asked for my opinion on what needs to be done. I gave you my honest opinion. Don't go down the bailing bankers out lark, nearly every other country has in some form or other done this. You been an accountant will be far too aware of the need for banking reform and its retarded to suggest you can just let the banks die off. But even so, issues like the delay in citizenship is not priority, it does not effect this country's citizens or even to an adverse detriment the immigrant who is still has strong residency rights. You honestly believe that the Minister would risk public humilation and definite courts cases by threatening to remove immigrants of 5 plus more years who worked their mule off? Good luck to any foreign investment if that happens. Even most decent Irish people would stand in soldiarity for those people then, including me.

When I refer to priority, I refer to housing lists, schools etc. We only have so many resources

Accountability is one thing and no sane person could disagree with you . by the way, thats serious speeding and you know full well how courts take to this in like of our problems on the roads. It is blatant that the Minister is trying to discourage immigrants to not apply for citizenship and hope they leave the country and thus withdraw the application. By the way if you want accountability, simply make a freedom of information application for the release of a copy of the your file. It will show you all the memo's notes etc and more importantly the dates. So you have no excuse.

You know full well that all the INIS resources are focused on EU Treaty Rights. (and the staff be incompetent lazy c*nts)

Thank you btw for responding specifically to my questions

With regard to point 3. THe legislation asks that you be of good character. Getting into trouble with the law and revenue is not good character. You basically need to be squeeky clean. You would be expected not to rely on social welfare for too long. You would be expected to reside in the State on a continous basis. Where is the difficulty there. You knowingly fail to do this, then you may have problems. These are the 3 main reasons for refusual. It don't matter a damn how much hurling or guiness you do etc, if you are fail to meet the three specific issues, you have problems. Where is the lack of transparency? If you are patient, its not all together difficult in getting Irish citizenship at all. The least you would be expected to do is to act lawfully at all time, pay tax and work. Unless you have something to be worried about, then the only issue is the delay. Go and do an FOI

Sorry in question 4, i referred to your country, (and those you wish to answer it) not Ireland, we here enough about the ills of this country by ye lot; swearing that yer countries are utopias. Different attitudes to immigrants, oh sweet jesus, there maybe problems, but it aint as bad as some parts in the UK. Access to work, prior to the bubble crash, weren't most immigrants working? But look on a whole, nothing there could really be argued against, you note what I mean by Irish being up their own asses

Unless. ... Unless... you are Irish yourself

I will repeat, neither Dermot and Bertie are related. Maybe in God's eyes or in the mighty Aherne clan. But no, there is no blood connection. I would not say incompetence is something Dermot is to be fair. He aint out to serve the immigrant but the irish people. I would not want him as a taoiseach. despite his hardening attitude etc, there are many out there who supports his role in fighting crime etc and other issues under the department remit. He was an excellent foreign minister

[fatty patty]

Fair play patty

Where did I say I was an accountant, I was referring to my brothers. But you do realise that accountants, businesslawyers, it tech etc are and can be civil servants. Do you realise that there is no actual college / uni course for civil servant and staff will come from all academic / vocational backgrounds. And do you realise that many civil servants, particularily young ones, knowing that they won't go far up the ladder because auld ones still run the roast, will likely get out in double quick time. I was in the civil service after college for roughly 5 years. It was grand, great experience but had to move on and do my own thing

I do realise that, you don't need to spoon feed me on this one. Were you in Justice department/garda if you don't mind me asking as your views comes across quiet astute.

Funny enough Patty, you seem to have nothing to say in relation to that specific quote, regarding employees in chippers. 3 billion, right, PRSI? does that include those on minium wage? Is that including EU citizens like you? (Hardly refer EU citizens as immigrants now would you) I doubt it. Chinese are well known for working for themselves. I would not mind if you could actually produce some stats etc like before (at this point I ain't arguing or disputing) I would not mind comparing it to business permits allocation

no maybe it doesn't include them, but this particular chipper crowd are mostly students who came over and were working full time and studying part time (while there visa stipulates the other way around). quiet alot of them holding two and in some cases 3 jobs. But still if you look at the face value PRSI/PAYE paid even if its on minimum wage (unless if they are working cash in hand and i bet quiet alot would've been).

You never mentioned anything about a dispora and i never suggested you were. I mentioned them, simply to state from my own knowledge, that that was, at least between that period the regular nationalities at the IFSC. I won't dispute that things changed after 2006. If you actually were capable enough of remembering what we are talking about as oppose to conveniently trying to shift the goal posts, i said, one, my people where gone by 2005, so anything thereafter I can't say. But far more importantly. You and to a more extent people around this site arrogantly, without foundation or actual knowledge of this country believed that the boom was as if it was all the immigrants work. I made it crystal clear the period of the real growth. The nationality issue at the IFSC was clearly referring to the period of 1997-2005. Anything thereafter is hardly substantial. It was you who suggested to Monife, a person in a postion who would know better, that her view was arrogant. It was simply an honest and reasonably accurate view

i am not shifting any goal posts, i was counter arguing what you just said. you had the info pre 05 i am giving you post 06. When i say this country is built on immigrant's back maybe my views were a bit far fetched and i did corrected myself there stating fine not in its entirety. Irish are a proud bunch and respected for that and they do not take critics kindly as its a hardworking nation who endured a lot of pains and suffering through the early years. It was the wording use there which sounded quiet arrogant to me i dont know about others. But if i had offended you or monife, i apologies.

Nice to see you using the word "Éire" in the wrong way. Do you you call Germany Deutchesland when speaking the English language? Funny enough, why did the British have a tendancy to do that, particuarily when both countries were not too pally. I have to admit, I personally have not been to the States, so no point taking point in hearsay or stories from friends and relations.

Yes you are right Ireland must comply with all eu laws. But where were does it say that it must comply with the norms if issues like Citizenship of one's country don't have and will unlikely confer powers to the EU or ECHR? The ECHR provides a minium as you well know still gives a country some leeway when dealing with non eu nationals. Article 29 of our consitution is clear on this. the treaties are clear as to what the eu can and can do. Do remember, Ireland has a tendancy to be allowed to opt out of some protocols etc involving non eu citizens and schegen etc. You make it out that Ireland was the worse, try Denmark

The treaties are clear but yet they are flaunted by justice dept. Try Denmark on what exactly...

Whats the story with the English and ministerial discretion? (look i accept that is a weak argument, so don't take that as a counter arguement) It is highly likely that any legislation even if expressed, will still have the same results

You asked for my opinion on what needs to be done. I gave you my honest opinion. Don't go down the bailing bankers out lark, nearly every other country has in some form or other done this. You been an accountant will be far too aware of the need for banking reform and its retarded to suggest you can just let the banks die off. But even so, issues like the delay in citizenship is not priority, it does not effect this country's citizens or even to an adverse detriment the immigrant who is still has strong residency rights. You honestly believe that the Minister would risk public humilation and definite courts cases by threatening to remove immigrants of 5 plus more years who worked their mule off? Good luck to any foreign investment if that happens. Even most decent Irish people would stand in soldiarity for those people then, including me.

your argument here counter your earlier ones. you are saying minister is not gonna kick out a long term immigrant and you for one stand in solidarity...yet the policies of the minister, delay tactics, freeze and making permits difficult, reverse discro, residency and other rights are smack in the face.

When I refer to priority, I refer to housing lists, schools etc. We only have so many resources

housing lists still an issue yet there is ghost states up and down the country, kids still freezes in the prefabs, ireland has bags of potential/resources, they are not properly used.

Accountability is one thing and no sane person could disagree with you . by the way, thats serious speeding and you know full well how courts take to this in like of our problems on the roads. By the way if you want accountability, simply make a freedom of information application for the release of a copy of the your file. It will show you all the memo's notes etc and more importantly the dates. So you have no excuse.

I said hypothetically speaking. i didnt do that! http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 36072.html people are getting refused for silly little things.

It is blatant that the Minister is trying to discourage immigrants to not apply for citizenship and hope they leave the country and thus withdraw the application.

You honestly believe that the Minister would risk public humilation and definite courts cases by threatening to remove immigrants of 5 plus more years who worked their mule off? Good luck to any foreign investment if that happens. Even most decent Irish people would stand in soldiarity for those people then, including me.

you said the above just there youself...so there is a protest outside dail soon....are you in?

Thank you btw for responding specifically to my questions

With regard to point 3. THe legislation asks that you be of good character. Getting into trouble with the law and revenue is not good character. You basically need to be squeeky clean. You would be expected not to rely on social welfare for too long. You would be expected to reside in the State on a continous basis. Where is the difficulty there. You knowingly fail to do this, then you may have problems. These are the 3 main reasons for refusual. It don't matter a damn how much hurling or guiness you do etc, if you are fail to meet the three specific issues, you have problems.

100% agree i even highlighted my absolutelies there for you in my post...that meaning that all applicant for citizenship should have of being a good law abiding/tax paying/guiness drinking/stew cooking/gaa playing individual.

Where is the lack of transparency? If you are patient, its not all together difficult in getting Irish citizenship at all. The least you would be expected to do is to act lawfully at all time, pay tax and work. Unless you have something to be worried about, then the only issue is the delay. Go and do an FOI

irish citizenship its a lengthy process, please understand this...irish passport is amongst the most difficult to get in EU. immigrants should not apply in tipperary they should be sending their apps to Moscow/Tel-Aviv to get a quicker response.

Sorry in question 4, i referred to your country, (and those you wish to answer it) not Ireland, we here enough about the ills of this country by ye lot; swearing that yer countries are utopias. Different attitudes to immigrants, oh sweet jesus, there maybe problems, but it aint as bad as some parts in the UK. Access to work, prior to the bubble crash, weren't most immigrants working? But look on a whole, nothing there could really be argued against, you note what I mean by Irish being up their own asses

you have a habit of comparing Eire to the UK? its not a competition. please start comparing on the positives for a start...like 6 months on citizenship apps, streamlined UK border force....accountability...no nonsense approach towards flaunters...watch sky1 and you see.

I will repeat, neither Dermot and Bertie are related. Maybe in God's eyes or in the mighty Aherne clan. But no, there is no blood connection. I would not say incompetence is something Dermot is to be fair. He aint out to serve the immigrant but the irish people. I would not want him as a taoiseach. despite his hardening attitude etc, there are many out there who supports his role in fighting crime etc and other issues under the department remit. He was an excellent foreign minister

they are not related...fine i get it you didnt catch my hypothetically speaking tone its not my fault....you dont need to give me a weggie on this. dermot cant control his own prison up in mountjoy let alone immigrant issue. please dont get me started on that. he was a foreign minister yet one should think he could have picked up one or two things from the international community regarding how to run efficient departments in less resources? but no.

[walrusgumble]

Fair play patty

Where did I say I was an accountant, I was referring to my brothers. But you do realise that accountants, businesslawyers, it tech etc are and can be civil servants. Do you realise that there is no actual college / uni course for civil servant and staff will come from all academic / vocational backgrounds. And do you realise that many civil servants, particularily young ones, knowing that they won't go far up the ladder because auld ones still run the roast, will likely get out in double quick time. I was in the civil service after college for roughly 5 years. It was grand, great experience but had to move on and do my own thing

I do realise that, you don't need to spoon feed me on this one. Were you in Justice department/garda if you don't mind me asking as your views comes across quiet astute.

Funny enough Patty, you seem to have nothing to say in relation to that specific quote, regarding employees in chippers. 3 billion, right, PRSI? does that include those on minium wage? Is that including EU citizens like you? (Hardly refer EU citizens as immigrants now would you) I doubt it. Chinese are well known for working for themselves. I would not mind if you could actually produce some stats etc like before (at this point I ain't arguing or disputing) I would not mind comparing it to business permits allocation

no maybe it doesn't include them, but this particular chipper crowd are mostly students who came over and were working full time and studying part time (while there visa stipulates the other way around). quiet alot of them holding two and in some cases 3 jobs. But still if you look at the face value PRSI/PAYE paid even if its on minimum wage (unless if they are working cash in hand and i bet quiet alot would've been).

You never mentioned anything about a dispora and i never suggested you were. I mentioned them, simply to state from my own knowledge, that that was, at least between that period the regular nationalities at the IFSC. I won't dispute that things changed after 2006. If you actually were capable enough of remembering what we are talking about as oppose to conveniently trying to shift the goal posts, i said, one, my people where gone by 2005, so anything thereafter I can't say. But far more importantly. You and to a more extent people around this site arrogantly, without foundation or actual knowledge of this country believed that the boom was as if it was all the immigrants work. I made it crystal clear the period of the real growth. The nationality issue at the IFSC was clearly referring to the period of 1997-2005. Anything thereafter is hardly substantial. It was you who suggested to Monife, a person in a postion who would know better, that her view was arrogant. It was simply an honest and reasonably accurate view

i am not shifting any goal posts, i was counter arguing what you just said. you had the info pre 05 i am giving you post 06. When i say this country is built on immigrant's back maybe my views were a bit far fetched and i did corrected myself there stating fine not in its entirety. Irish are a proud bunch and respected for that and they do not take critics kindly as its a hardworking nation who endured a lot of pains and suffering through the early years. It was the wording use there which sounded quiet arrogant to me i dont know about others. But if i had offended you or monife, i apologies.

Nice to see you using the word "Éire" in the wrong way. Do you you call Germany Deutchesland when speaking the English language? Funny enough, why did the British have a tendancy to do that, particuarily when both countries were not too pally. I have to admit, I personally have not been to the States, so no point taking point in hearsay or stories from friends and relations.

Yes you are right Ireland must comply with all eu laws. But where were does it say that it must comply with the norms if issues like Citizenship of one's country don't have and will unlikely confer powers to the EU or ECHR? The ECHR provides a minium as you well know still gives a country some leeway when dealing with non eu nationals. Article 29 of our consitution is clear on this. the treaties are clear as to what the eu can and can do. Do remember, Ireland has a tendancy to be allowed to opt out of some protocols etc involving non eu citizens and schegen etc. You make it out that Ireland was the worse, try Denmark

The treaties are clear but yet they are flaunted by justice dept. Try Denmark on what exactly...

Whats the story with the English and ministerial discretion? (look i accept that is a weak argument, so don't take that as a counter arguement) It is highly likely that any legislation even if expressed, will still have the same results

You asked for my opinion on what needs to be done. I gave you my honest opinion. Don't go down the bailing bankers out lark, nearly every other country has in some form or other done this. You been an accountant will be far too aware of the need for banking reform and its retarded to suggest you can just let the banks die off. But even so, issues like the delay in citizenship is not priority, it does not effect this country's citizens or even to an adverse detriment the immigrant who is still has strong residency rights. You honestly believe that the Minister would risk public humilation and definite courts cases by threatening to remove immigrants of 5 plus more years who worked their mule off? Good luck to any foreign investment if that happens. Even most decent Irish people would stand in soldiarity for those people then, including me.

your argument here counter your earlier ones. you are saying minister is not gonna kick out a long term immigrant and you for one stand in solidarity...yet the policies of the minister, delay tactics, freeze and making permits difficult, reverse discro, residency and other rights are smack in the face.

When I refer to priority, I refer to housing lists, schools etc. We only have so many resources

housing lists still an issue yet there is ghost states up and down the country, kids still freezes in the prefabs, ireland has bags of potential/resources, they are not properly used.

Accountability is one thing and no sane person could disagree with you . by the way, thats serious speeding and you know full well how courts take to this in like of our problems on the roads. By the way if you want accountability, simply make a freedom of information application for the release of a copy of the your file. It will show you all the memo's notes etc and more importantly the dates. So you have no excuse.

I said hypothetically speaking. i didnt do that! http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 36072.html people are getting refused for silly little things.

It is blatant that the Minister is trying to discourage immigrants to not apply for citizenship and hope they leave the country and thus withdraw the application.

You honestly believe that the Minister would risk public humilation and definite courts cases by threatening to remove immigrants of 5 plus more years who worked their mule off? Good luck to any foreign investment if that happens. Even most decent Irish people would stand in soldiarity for those people then, including me.

you said the above just there youself...so there is a protest outside dail soon....are you in?

Thank you btw for responding specifically to my questions

With regard to point 3. THe legislation asks that you be of good character. Getting into trouble with the law and revenue is not good character. You basically need to be squeeky clean. You would be expected not to rely on social welfare for too long. You would be expected to reside in the State on a continous basis. Where is the difficulty there. You knowingly fail to do this, then you may have problems. These are the 3 main reasons for refusual. It don't matter a damn how much hurling or guiness you do etc, if you are fail to meet the three specific issues, you have problems.

100% agree i even highlighted my absolutelies there for you in my post...that meaning that all applicant for citizenship should have of being a good law abiding/tax paying/guiness drinking/stew cooking/gaa playing individual.

Where is the lack of transparency? If you are patient, its not all together difficult in getting Irish citizenship at all. The least you would be expected to do is to act lawfully at all time, pay tax and work. Unless you have something to be worried about, then the only issue is the delay. Go and do an FOI

irish citizenship its a lengthy process, please understand this...irish passport is amongst the most difficult to get in EU. immigrants should not apply in tipperary they should be sending their apps to Moscow/Tel-Aviv to get a quicker response.

Sorry in question 4, i referred to your country, (and those you wish to answer it) not Ireland, we here enough about the ills of this country by ye lot; swearing that yer countries are utopias. Different attitudes to immigrants, oh sweet jesus, there maybe problems, but it aint as bad as some parts in the UK. Access to work, prior to the bubble crash, weren't most immigrants working? But look on a whole, nothing there could really be argued against, you note what I mean by Irish being up their own asses

you have a habit of comparing Eire to the UK? its not a competition. please start comparing on the positives for a start...like 6 months on citizenship apps, streamlined UK border force....accountability...no nonsense approach towards flaunters...watch sky1 and you see.

I will repeat, neither Dermot and Bertie are related. Maybe in God's eyes or in the mighty Aherne clan. But no, there is no blood connection. I would not say incompetence is something Dermot is to be fair. He aint out to serve the immigrant but the irish people. I would not want him as a taoiseach. despite his hardening attitude etc, there are many out there who supports his role in fighting crime etc and other issues under the department remit. He was an excellent foreign minister

they are not related...fine i get it you didnt catch my hypothetically speaking tone its not my fault....you dont need to give me a weggie on this. dermot cant control his own prison up in mountjoy let alone immigrant issue. please dont get me started on that. he was a foreign minister yet one should think he could have picked up one or two things from the international community regarding how to run efficient departments in less resources? but no.

deprtment of justice, administration, first started in general (answer phones, tea boy, copying files) moved to various departments, even sent to education for 2 months (don't ask ) then a few months in prison service area and a bit dealing with business permits (just before INIS was established)

the chipper bit, is insulting so i refrain from using that word. now tere is the problem: international students working full time. unless they are training accountants etc on stamps 1A or 2A, or working during their holidays, they are in breach of the conditions set out in their passports and letters. i would love to get the stats as to how many are actually in recognised third level courses in uni/it as to oppose to some dodgy private college. the department is well aware of the sheenagians of some students ("college directors" signing off letters even though the student fails to attend, working full time so much that the minister was intended to bring in a new regime but backed out the last minute due to economic reasons). they re suppose to be here to learn and not a convenient way to get work or marry! they new full well their limitation to employment before coming here, so i won't hear any guff about the expenses of living, which they would/should have known before coming. many of these must not have been too badly off if they could come and pay these fees in the first place. Surely with all the europeans going off to asia "to find themselves" taking up english classes, people would not have too many problems getting classes at cheaper rates. they were also clearly told that they must leave the country after studies. well, they no longer need to take on the 3 jobs any more, there are many irish and eu people who will gladly take them and you know it. still don't see how an interntional students income tax comes anywhere near a frction of the one billion or so you suggest. moreover, who the hell would work 3 jobs tax wise? Like I said, i don't include other EU's as foreigners in this context (them alone, might be undisputed, but hey, they are entitled to our generious social welfare benefits, and you are well aware of the dodgy chancers from the small minority in relation to child benefit etc whilst they slip away back home)

the employer pays the prsi (unless earning more than the limit employee will not be deducted), does he not? you genuinely believe that the current €13 deduction comes anywhere near even a substantial figure?

irsh and critics, actually mny irish people can. but what irish people don't tolerate is exagertion, groundless claims, and comments from countries that act more holier than thou. this is the first time that regular assertions like the ones you raised (and other countless of times eg taking jobs the irish did not want when it was patently obvious that they were all ready working in real jobs) are challenged

how is ireland flaunting the treaty with regard to grant of citizenship and this so called reverse discrimination in relation to family reunification of other members of families of naturalised or irish born spouses who have yet to exercise their eu rights? i can't see how the minister will allow it due to the obvious flow that would come from claims by those in receipt of IBC 05 status


you are aware that a substantial portion of the EU population does like wise eg UK and Germany? no point going on about metock etc (a case involving an eu citizen try to getting residence for their eu spouse) it does not apply. Denmark as in, Ireland were not the only ones who flouted eu law on freemovement, and they were far more vocal. this thread is not related to free movement.

I asked you what your country is doing as well! how are the policies a smack in the face?have they themselves being personally threatened with deportation? work permit holders are entitled to family reunification as are eu citizens. those who are in genuine marriages with irish citizens and had done so whilst they had permission to stay will be allowed to stay and work any children from previous relationship under 16 years will be permitted entry.they don't need their hands held by other family members. you any idea about the difficulities and weigh imposed on public service (schools housing hospitals etc) with the increase in our population over the last decade (and i am referring to the native irish) the country can not actually take in everyone, and you know it.its no different to any other country. do you want these people to be living on the streets?

as for current problems, this is more reason to sort it out and cater for all those living here now. again? whats your country doing?

protest in dail, best of luck with that. how are people who are being delayed citizenship threatened with deportation? actually, those high court cases that stopped lawyers going to court to make a minister accountable for delays of more than 1 -2 years specifically stated that in those cases, provided that the minister is informed, could be able to succeed in forcing the minister to refrain from delaying. there is no contradiction

sending to moscow and other embassy??? why? they are within the remit of the department of foreign affairs and not justice. why would you send it there any way? you are suppose to be living HERE! right were the department can keep an eye on ye, to make sure continous residency is up to date. name me 5 eu states that have a similar policy. in light of the latest passport fiasco, that would be poltical suicide. trust me, these embassies have enough on their plates as it is.

even with the 2-3 year delay (8 years or so), you will still have it before being eligible to even think about applying for citizenship of some of the other eu states, and that would be less if married to irish (exclude comparision to those who still allow for automatic)

point 4 , avoiding the question i see

before i get to this, you might want to drop using the word eire, when speaking the english language. the country is called ireland. eire is used when speaking irish. its not clever and could lead to more than a slap in the mouth if around the wrong type of people (not a threat nor am i referring to me, just friendly advice), particularily used by people of a certain country, grow up, even that government started to respect the country by referring to its proper title.

Why i keep comparing to Britain? Very similar policies that is why and don't go off on one about soverignity etc. ireland has more in common with the uk than anywhere else, and there is northern ireland to consider. moreover, with uk's vast experience in this area, it would be stupid not to follow, adopt or alter there policies. being island nations on the west there is a lot of co-operation between both as many immigrants will come here via uk. think bout it before lookign stupid. of course its not a competion, we are simply trying to avoid the mother of all mistakes uk got themselves into over the last couple of decades (doing okish c+) seen ye all are using eg italy as an example for the reverse discrimination, and i did not go oooooooohhhhhhh competition, i am perfectly entitled to use other eu countries as a comparison, as ye lot are falsely making out that ireland is the sole bad boy. when i do it, there never seems to be much of a response thereafter, only shifting goal posts or moving to another issue to stick on the country

but yes, uk have and done a very good job on streamlining absolutely. but you know full well what the negatives are, thus, ireland, and i accept, in an arse way typical irish fashion, are trying to avoid. so if you intend to continue to assume irish governement policy and do so wrongly or come out with groundless claims in light of what goes on in other eu countries, i will return to that simple issue of what other eu states are at. look in the mirror before pointing fingers. interesting to see how cameroon and clegg deal with the issues, seen it appears they have conflicting attitudes.

sky 1 ? i hve not watched that tripe channel or any sky chnnel in years. it use to be good but makes the english look really bad, which is unfair. boarder controls is it? sweet jesus. trust me, those guys do a great job, and they have too, with all the coming and goings and security threats, but everyone looks good on tv. then again, back to the arseways ireland way, i shudder to think what a programme would be like with the gnib..... for interested in fighting over their circa 20-30E daily lunch allowance at the airport

[Obie]

walrusgumble with all due respect , i feel you are just being blindly patriotic, without trying to form an unblemished view of the abhorrent administrative system (Immigration) in Ireland.

It is perfectly acceptable to be patriotic, but when patriotism leads to blindness and distortion of facts and realities, then there is an obvious problem, which is what i believe is the case with you.

You read and hear stories of Irish non-EU spouses, being sentence to a life of destitution, no legal status, no right to work, no right to live a normal family life, in the country they choose to live, simply because they fall in love, and want to be together.

The system is inadvertently flawed and contaminated. They view all marriage as fraud, all non-EEA nationals who married to Irish nationals as immigration cheats, and their marriage, as marriages of convenience.


I find it deeply troubling and disheartening to read your lengthly post, which have to all intence and purpose, sort to justify and endorse this system.

For someone like myself who suffered immensly from this malfunctioned system, i feel i am better placed to covey the impact of it on normal family, that for example and Irish national like yourself, you have to date not felt the effect of it on a personal level.

Perhaps one day, you might fall in love with a non EU national, and seek to bring him or her to Ireland, or she might be in Ireland, then you will understand the unfairness of the system. However, i will not wish such hardship on anyone.

You seem like a nice person, but i am not convinced your views are really balanced.

[walrusgumble]

walrusgumble with all due respect , i feel you are just being blindly patriotic, without trying to form an unblemished view of the abhorrent administrative system (Immigration) in Ireland.

It is perfectly acceptable to be patriotic, but when patriotism leads to blindness and distortion of facts and realities, then there is an obvious problem, which is what i believe is the case with you.

You read and hear stories of Irish non-EU spouses, being sentence to a life of destitution, no legal status, no right to work, no right to live a normal family life, in the country they choose to live, simply because they fall in love, and want to be together.

The system is inadvertently flawed and contaminated. They view all marriage as fraud, all non-EEA nationals who married to Irish nationals as immigration cheats, and their marriage, as marriages of convenience.


I find it deeply troubling and disheartening to read your lengthly post, which have to all intence and purpose, sort to justify and endorse this system.

For someone like myself who suffered immensly from this malfunctioned system, i feel i am better placed to covey the impact of it on normal family, that for example and Irish national like yourself, you have to date not felt the effect of it on a personal level.

Perhaps one day, you might fall in love with a non EU national, and seek to bring him or her to Ireland, or she might be in Ireland, then you will understand the unfairness of the system. However, i will not wish such hardship on anyone.

You seem like a nice person, but i am not convinced your views are really balanced.

Thankfully policies and laws are free from emotions. THe State owes you nothing. Europe is not an open store to non eu's you know this.

With respect or not, it has got nothing to do with being patriotic. If you are not capable of coming up with a more solid counter argument. Then Don't make one. If you are incapable of read one's comments, despite bad typing, don't bother responding. Read the articles, I clearly raise the issues with the State whether immigration problems or domestic

There is not one thing that has been said by you that actually stands up. The legislation on citizenship is clear, the legislation as to deportation orders are clear. The number Irish domestic and ECHR caselaw is clear. THat is, Artilce 8 does not require Member States to respect a couple's decision to reside in another State. IF there are no insourmountable obstacles for the couple to live elsewhere regardless of where, then they can go. THe courts are entitled to look at length of relationship etc. Even ECHR cases have justified deportation in these situations. (THIS REFERS TO NON EU LAW MATTERS)

I don't intend to make any comment about the love affair of some people with an urge to marry without evening knowing each other, but suffice to say, many countries in Europe are sceptical.

The spouse knows what the law is before the marriage. Why should they be allowed for the law to bend over because they ignored the well known and well publicised risks that residency may not be given? WHy go through the hassle?

At least Fatty Patty and Acme have put across good and arguable points. It has nothing to do with "patrotics" My view on the Irish has been made reasonably clear in this posters. I don't tolerate Citizens of the Crown referring to this country as Eire, whilst in the English Language. They do this, knowingly (or they are just being extremely retarded) that its a bone a contention , intended to cause problems.

Going back to immigration matters, i won't repeat what I believe are the legal and political problems to your cases and whether Europe could do anything. I don't actually get any kicks out of it btw. For some, I hope things work.

Anyone here its lynched for disagreeing with "offical Ireland" and the immigrants. Your boards have been going on about the Irish etc and lazy ness and how ye saved the economy for far too long. You are simply being challenged on it and a few home truths to booth (no denying the importance of most immigrants, let me make that clear) I would hope though, that I would come across in a different view than say Irish Tom. Assertions get made and when challenged can't be backed up. For yours Patty I take my hat off to you for most part.

THe really annoying thing is, people like myself, you actually have been in the bell of state structures have simply come on here to give ye an insight to the problems, only to to arrogantly shot down by some people who are neither capable or competent to form an opinion on the said areas of government structure. No point telling you ah everything is going to be grand when its not. Get the facts, whether its good or not, identify the problems, maybe figure a way around the problems

I do not think that it is a case of being patrotic for the minister being concerned about the type of people seeking Irish citizenship or residency. its not different elesewhere. I am challenge you to disclose what your country does to see where the hell ye get off on some of the nonsensical and made up notion of entitlements raised. If people stuck to the facts, there would not be so much disappointment and stupid rash decisions might not have being made.

[Obie]

I really don't want to go of topic and get into personal attacks and insults. I wanted to engage in the debate and make a positive contribution,and not to be demonised and falsely accused of wrongdoing.

You are right that Ireland don't owe me anything,and even if they did, i probably would have written it of, as they are bankrupt anyway.

I went there because i had the right to do so,and i saw to it, that my rights were asserted. Although i felt very strongly that things should not be that way. I went there as a free man, and left on my own accord as a free man.

I will not engage with you on IrishTom. All i can say is, that he was an unrepentant rasist lovey, who sort to harrass and intimidate people on this forum. The authorities figured his presence was not conducive to the good of the forum, and he was expelled, just like that. To write in support of his actions, does note bode well with you, as someone i viewed as tolerant and intelligent. Then again, we are still getting to know people, day by day.

I believe the issues in this topic is very plain, black and white. The system is discriminating and unjust and it has got to change.

The Advocate General in his opinion Ruiz Zambrano, even though you have discredited this, wrote about the scale of reverse discrimination, and the impact it has on the lives and future of citizens of the Union.

I know article 8 does not give right to foreign nationals to stay in a particular place, but to expel a foreign national from a place where close member of their family resides,will infringe their right, except if it is justified by Article8 (2),which is not the case in Ireland.

If for example you are with a lady you love in Ireland, and the person is undocumented, you have a good job, all your family members live in Ireland, and the country from which your partner came from, don't speak english. Would it bejustified for the authorities to tell you to go and settle there, absolutely not.

Look at the debate on marriages, and the myth of rampant marriages of convenience that the justice minister keeps talking about. These are all indictation that the authorities there have no intention of supporting genuine family, just to suppress and hinder their existence.

So with all due respect Sir, please don't simply disregard my comments.

[fatty patty]

the chipper bit, is insulting so i refrain from using that word. now tere is the problem: international students working full time. unless they are training accountants etc on stamps 1A or 2A, or working during their holidays, they are in breach of the conditions set out in their passports and letters. i would love to get the stats as to how many are actually in recognised third level courses in uni/it as to oppose to some dodgy private college. the department is well aware of the sheenagians of some students ("college directors" signing off letters even though the student fails to attend, working full time so much that the minister was intended to bring in a new regime but backed out the last minute due to economic reasons). they re suppose to be here to learn and not a convenient way to get work or marry! they new full well their limitation to employment before coming here, so i won't hear any guff about the expenses of living, which they would/should have known before coming. many of these must not have been too badly off if they could come and pay these fees in the first place. Surely with all the europeans going off to asia "to find themselves" taking up english classes, people would not have too many problems getting classes at cheaper rates. they were also clearly told that they must leave the country after studies. well, they no longer need to take on the 3 jobs any more, there are many irish and eu people who will gladly take them and you know it. still don't see how an interntional students income tax comes anywhere near a frction of the one billion or so you suggest. moreover, who the hell would work 3 jobs tax wise? Like I said, i don't include other EU's as foreigners in this context (them alone, might be undisputed, but hey, they are entitled to our generious social welfare benefits, and you are well aware of the dodgy chancers from the small minority in relation to child benefit etc whilst they slip away back home)

Most apply in good universities for the first year as there is more chances of securing a visa in big unies then in small ones. But chancers and not genuine students do get their way around it and come next year extension gets admitted in a small cheap and cheerful college that will do the job. that's not anybody's fault but the department's itself as they were giving visas on those dodgy colleges (now system is changed, more strict and stringent). corruption is/was rife in INIS and those students were offering mega bucks for visa extensions which led to one bend INIS muppet being arrested and thrown in jail.

see this http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsneycwkfsn/

But countless got away and some disciplined. But students do contribute quite a shit load to the irish economy, firstly by paying starting up 5-10K a year in fees A YEAR in which nearly 20% go to Mr. Revenue Commissioner! and also by consuming goods here, also if they are working thats win win for the exchequer. Again don't mix it up with the ones on asylum or LTR they are entitled to benefits, not every one willy nilly as you are suggesting.

the employer pays the prsi (unless earning more than the limit employee will not be deducted), does he not? you genuinely believe that the current €13 deduction comes anywhere near even a substantial figure?

you had more than 10k student alone a few years back dont know the exact number now...multiply that 10k with 13...you get the figure...thats again a roughly speaking not to mention their chunk of fees going to exchequer + their consumption here...they are contributing quiet a lot and are not strain on the system, same goes to all immigrants its not just PRSI/PAYE all the time, dont forget indirect taxes.

irsh and critics, actually mny irish people can. but what irish people don't tolerate is exagertion, groundless claims, and comments from countries that act more holier than thou. this is the first time that regular assertions like the ones you raised (and other countless of times eg taking jobs the irish did not want when it was patently obvious that they were all ready working in real jobs) are challenged

you for one most certainly can't. Irish already working in "REAL" jobs? Wow, if that is not arrogance then what is, i dont know!

work permit holders are entitled to family reunification as are eu citizens. those who are in genuine marriages with irish citizens and had done so whilst they had permission to stay will be allowed to stay and work any children from previous relationship under 16 years will be permitted entry.they don't need their hands held by other family members. you any idea about the difficulities and weigh imposed on public service (schools housing hospitals etc) with the increase in our population over the last decade (and i am referring to the native irish) the country can not actually take in everyone, and you know it.its no different to any other country. do you want these people to be living on the streets?

yeah permit holder's spouse can just live and wash dirty pots and dishes in the Spam or clean his/her house! he/she cant go out and work as his/her permit holder spouse is....as far as living on street is concerned, i know there is strain on the services at present as money is scarce....but you are scare mongering thinking that shit pretty soon ireland will be overflowing and people will be falling in the atlantic on the west coast and irish sea in the east coast.

protest in dail, best of luck with that. how are people who are being delayed citizenship threatened with deportation? actually, those high court cases that stopped lawyers going to court to make a minister accountable for delays of more than 1 -2 years specifically stated that in those cases, provided that the minister is informed, could be able to succeed in forcing the minister to refrain from delaying. there is no contradiction

that was a joke...a pun intended towards your statement that you would stand in solidarity...yeah right !

sending to moscow and other embassy??? why? they are within the remit of the department of foreign affairs and not justice. why would you send it there any way? you are suppose to be living HERE! right were the department can keep an eye on ye, to make sure continous residency is up to date. name me 5 eu states that have a similar policy. in light of the latest passport fiasco, that would be poltical suicide. trust me, these embassies have enough on their plates as it is.

Not sending to Irish missions in Moscow or Tel Aviv you dope but to KGB in Moscow and Mosaad in Tel Aviv....they are good and quick at making Irish passports so no point sending it up to Tipperary anymore and paying 950 while you get it quick and cheap there!

even with the 2-3 year delay (8 years or so), you will still have it before being eligible to even think about applying for citizenship of some of the other eu states, and that would be less if married to irish (exclude comparision to those who still allow for automatic)

guaranteed irish citizenship for irish spouses of good character after 3 years as bonafide marriage, if they got kids well then only 2 years. processing time no more than 8-9 months. background checks dont take that long from gardai or SW office. period!

Why i keep comparing to Britain? Very similar policies that is why and don't go off on one about soverignity etc. ireland has more in common with the uk than anywhere else, and there is northern ireland to consider. moreover, with uk's vast experience in this area, it would be stupid not to follow, adopt or alter there policies. being island nations on the west there is a lot of co-operation between both as many immigrants will come here via uk. think bout it before lookign stupid. of course its not a competion, we are simply trying to avoid the mother of all mistakes uk got themselves into over the last couple of decades (doing okish c+) seen ye all are using eg italy as an example for the reverse discrimination, and i did not go oooooooohhhhhhh competition, i am perfectly entitled to use other eu countries as a comparison, as ye lot are falsely making out that ireland is the sole bad boy. when i do it, there never seems to be much of a response thereafter, only shifting goal posts or moving to another issue to stick on the country

we are not discussing UK Home Office here or UKBA here in this forum...its Department of Justice and INIS. Lets leave st. george alone and concentrate on st. patrick shall we

but yes, uk have and done a very good job on streamlining absolutely. but you know full well what the negatives are, thus, ireland, and i accept, in an arse way typical irish fashion, are trying to avoid. so if you intend to continue to assume irish governement policy and do so wrongly or come out with groundless claims in light of what goes on in other eu countries, i will return to that simple issue of what other eu states are at. look in the mirror before pointing fingers. interesting to see how cameroon and clegg deal with the issues, seen it appears they have conflicting attitudes.

so learn from it and implement it as quiet alot of other things are implemented by INIS. I know what the negatives are...they are that INIS policies are gonna get caught out hence not stream lining the visa/citizenship processes and leave it under minister discretion, but this in return is bad for the department as they are brought to court, have to extend manpower towards answering calls and writing up thousands and thousands of copy paste letters in the word prcessors, thats not better use of the manpower now is it?

[walrusgumble]

I really don't want to go of topic and get into personal attacks and insults. I wanted to engage in the debate and make a positive contribution,and not to be demonised and falsely accused of wrongdoing.

You are right that Ireland don't owe me anything,and even if they did, i probably would have written it of, as they are bankrupt anyway.

I went there because i had the right to do so,and i saw to it, that my rights were asserted. Although i felt very strongly that things should not be that way. I went there as a free man, and left on my own accord as a free man.

I will not engage with you on IrishTom. All i can say is, that he was an unrepentant rasist lovey, who sort to harrass and intimidate people on this forum. The authorities figured his presence was not conducive to the good of the forum, and he was expelled, just like that. To write in support of his actions, does note bode well with you, as someone i viewed as tolerant and intelligent. Then again, we are still getting to know people, day by day.

I believe the issues in this topic is very plain, black and white. The system is discriminating and unjust and it has got to change.

The Advocate General in his opinion Ruiz Zambrano, even though you have discredited this, wrote about the scale of reverse discrimination, and the impact it has on the lives and future of citizens of the Union.

I know article 8 does not give right to foreign nationals to stay in a particular place, but to expel a foreign national from a place where close member of their family resides,will infringe their right, except if it is justified by Article8 (2),which is not the case in Ireland.

If for example you are with a lady you love in Ireland, and the person is undocumented, you have a good job, all your family members live in Ireland, and the country from which your partner came from, don't speak english. Would it bejustified for the authorities to tell you to go and settle there, absolutely not.

Look at the debate on marriages, and the myth of rampant marriages of convenience that the justice minister keeps talking about. These are all indictation that the authorities there have no intention of supporting genuine family, just to suppress and hinder their existence.

So with all due respect Sir, please don't simply disregard my comments.

If you think I am trying to abuse you, then I am sorry for you feeling that way. i do not intend to. Your not been demonised nor accussed of wrong doing.

But some things need to be straightened. Other countries would not tolerate so why should Ireland. You realise that Ireland has been preceived to be a soft target over the years. Do you realise the hassle the UK and Brussels have given the country over the years? Do you realise that Brussels does have a genuine concern about controling the influx of non eu nationals?

Let me also make one thing clear.

1. I have absolutely no problem with people applying and getting citizenship. I don't care about your race, religion etc. So long as you work hard and integrate and follow our laws and actually make this country your ordinary residence as oppose to fecking off there after fine. (By the way ordinary residence does not neccessarily mean you can't live elsewhere, fatty will know what ordinary residence means under taxation laws. )I do genuinely sympathise with those who are waiting. In light of EU standards, its bad. But I completely reject one suggestion by one poster,who to be fair, i doubt really meant it, that embassies i foreign lands should take care of applications (let me assure you, in Ireland, this will no nothing to quicken things up) the departments hands are tied by other agencies and genuine resource problems.

I have explained by reasons for not putting more. But, priorities have to be taken, the courts have stopped you from demanding further demands for minister to hurry up. why? under separation of powers courts can not interfere with how resources can be splashed around, unless its

(a) a serious delay has occurred eg 4-5 years, with no justification and you are not at fault (ie delay in sending in additional documents, which the minister is perfectly entitled to do to ensure that you still comply with the conditions. Again, to put is bluntly, it aint about collecting 12 crisp tokens and bang you have it

(b) the delay, even if 2-3 years must be prejudicial. there is caselaw around (judge cooke and judge harding clarke 2008-2009) that sets out examples of this. this would include where your current status is at risk. The courts acknowledge that stamp 4's will unlikely have problems. the minister is not the big bad wolf you think he / she is. Its unlikely he would or even could deport you. look for example the ibc 05 scheme as an example. here, one condition for renewal as per 2007 renewal scheme was that you must be working or studying etc. in 2010, that condition was dropped. Do you realise, that with this class of people (about 18,000) will now be applying for citizenship this year. many are likely to be refused due to social welfare claims (which they were entitled to) the minister has a lot on its plate. social welfare department themselves are in turmoil after very public humaliation on eg prime time about people (both Irish and non Irish) scaming the welfare system. When the minister refuses any application, but does not tell you fully why, you can be damn sure, in a lot of cases, he /she will have plenty of ammo come court day. so it may not be neccessarily the case that minister will refuse willy nilly. you have seen for some time, that a court, within the limit of judicial review, is not afraid to rule against the government.

2. RE Irish Tom. Irish Tom, to be plain was / is an idiot. He has not got a clue what he is talking about, and takes his guff from the rags or what he preceives to be the truth. he probably believes that asylum seekers got free cars money the works. he has clearly stated that all are social welfare spongers. I have said none of this, and i know it to be absolute boll(xs. What I said, in response to comments which now have been taken back, that immigrants have contributed substantially to the exchequer. VAT yes, landlords yes, mickey mouse colleges yes, genuine colleges yes (something may I add allows / allowed for non tution fees for irish students). I questioned the issue of income tax. it's a legitimate argument. many don''t earn enough to be taxed (not their fault by the way) neither do i have a difficulty in understanding that one has an absolute right not to be refused entry to this state, irrespective of where you are from or irrespective of what country you travelled from to get here to apply for asylum. (ie dublin convention which contrary to some people's beliefs never stopped people coming to apply,it stops you when you actually applied for asylum in another country)

To suggest that anything said by me is supporting him is ridiculous. I have produced links and facts to back up what I say. I go to great lengths to explain fully the actual position of the Minister, the attitudes of alot of Irish people etc. I have never shreiked from any replies by you and others from by posts, they were addressed fully. I have offered suggestions in this thread alone and in others as to suggestions in getting around the problems (hardly dearly beloved there if one is helping people out and pointing to the problems) Your being told what the position is. Unless I say, "its my opinion" or "i believe" or "i can't see this happening", then I am not giving an opinion. There are some retarded answers made like the public service issue. I addressed that fully I have even asked you and others what your country does, to see if Ireland is the only country. I have explained why its done and provided evidence. I should not have come on strongly though, i admit.

You are talking about beloved? comments like corruptions etc are sore points for Irish people. You realise that one of the Primary reasons the Irish were disliked among the political classes in the US, right up to JFK, was because of they way they do political business and act the gombeen. Check out the Tamany Hall affair. (The Irish traditionally intensively inflitrated polticical life whether by party politics or trade unionism in the US, look at the surnames of many US presidents, Senators, Congressmen, many have Irish blood whether unionism, republicism, catholic or the various forms of protestant, even George Bush had links to ulster presbitarianism way back to the early days) I have noted, and kept silent about a number of particular commments. one example being the hate/like about ireland. now, don't get me wrong, a lot was fair and accurate. I my self have highlighted that Irish people have changed, for the worse. but some comments were down right libelous and boarder line. but more importantly, are hypocritical. thats why i keep turning to the "whats your country do... look in the mirror before making comments like that.

however, for the point of debate, the big question is this, for those married to eu citizens, why not, for short term and apply singh, can they return to that spouses coi and then return to ireland? reserve discrimination there? you might correct me here , because i am going by antidotial evidence FROM NON EU/IRISH FRIENDS MARRIED TO EU CITIZENS, that one reason is jobs (fair enough i guess) and also language barrier and cultural (not between the spouses obviously but the country itself. thats were i get worried. what happens when the eu spouse decides, if ever, they want to pack it in and return home? this risk should have been in the forefront before marriage. how many non eu will follow their darling spouses? will we here more posts of oh my spouse left me, abused me, it was not my fault? this of course may never happen, but the point of raising the issue is to highlight that if their own country won't given rights, then why should ireland be a dumping ground?. (different story if things are legit, and eu law applying)

If i see something is wrong, or arguments are non sensical, i will fight my corner. this is the problem with ireland. people won't challenge or touch immigration issue, because too many people get branded lovey or dearly beloved. thats were you and people like your good selve are going to have problems.

Many go ye, have excellent points, and thankfully ye know yer rights. but ye go about things the wrong way, don't get hysterical, don't get emotional. do what fatty patty does. he/she puts the points down and backs himself up. when someone is trying to tell you something that you don't like, don't go off on one and claim lovey etc. some people come across as me me me me. people have to be REALISTIC ( i am not referring to matters relating to eu law - i admit, i don't agree with metock strictly on the facts of that case, not due to race etc, but due to the legal status at time) know the problems, know what your up against and then try to quash it or put yourself in a position to get around it.

I understand when new people come to a country the only way they (who don't have votes) can seek rights for their own, is to protest, ask akward questions and protest publicly. there are certain groups out their who are well meaning. but, there are some, such as Rosanna Flynn, (look i would say this to her face) who do not always help. You need to pick your fights. you need to know when to go public to country that, for years, has lost amptahty towards others, particular if they try to upset the status quo. branding xx , y ,z is a dearly beloved is automatic guarantee to having the door closed. I would assume that you all are aware of this.

This is what I suggest

+ Get people like joe higgins, joe costello of labour, brendan durkan and alan shatter of fine gael behind you. you is the lady from news talk on saturday nights jil...... she has a programme especially highlighting the issues of irish people, and is fully aware of how long it takes to get an irish passport and the difficulties. i really do not know what all of shinners will do as they might want to keep their potential voters (who might not be too friendly to your issues) sweet. get involved with the immigration council etc

i would strongly suggest doing ground work behind the scenes before going public marches etc. people are lucky though with regard to reverse discrimination in some cases like Moylan as it can affect irish people themselves and there maybe sympathy (even if asylum seekers). who knows, someone from the department might finally give you a straight answer to why delays are taken in decisions.

going full on straight away, is guarantee to put the minister's back to the wall, and they will be vicious. public opinion might not be there fully. so again there trust. educate yourself fully to the knooks and crannies of irish politics, civil services, public policy etc, central stats, census etc, to hammer home your argument. www.bailii.org and courts.ie are great sites for immigration cases in ireland. look at the uk for comparision.

there are many well respected posters on this site. ye should actually meet in a central place and bash out your policies and think tanks. to come up wth an articulate base. don't completely rely on the journalists. because, yes, they will definitely help (fintan o'toole, and another chap i can't think of right now, ruairi mac...) be careful, there is a preception amongst alot of irish people that there is an "offical ireland", full of left wing "pinkos", and some are not keen on the phrase "new irish"

so, if you really think the above is a sign of beloved or support for a particular person... well there is not much that can be said.


3. I have no problem with immigration. but i do have issues with somethings.

What I do have a problem is abuse of the system. Over staying on student and vistor visas, blantant breach of student visas, over staying after expiry of work permits and becoming undocumented when its time to move on and work can't be got (lets remember in 2009, the minister granted an "amnesty" and put people on stamp 4s, certain failed asylum seekers resorting to gettinng married when evidence was clear that no relationship truely existed (beyond mere girlfriend/boyfriend and no evidence of them living together for a substantial period of time) Basically, side stepping immigration rules as seen in legislation and case law.

I do not think for one minute any of ye deny, a countries rights to control immigration. you know full well that ireland has opened its doors widely. clearly to expand our economy and improve our lot, socially and culturally. the economic bust is no excuse to treat EXISTING immigrants like dirt. but new problems are facing ye. attitudes all over europe are beginning to change and everyone is fighting for their own lot. ye will have to get thicker skins and ride the rough with the smooth, and keep yer sanity. the self victimisation won't help. a country has got to try (even if in spite of themselves) put plans for the future in order to provide the essential needs eg homes..... i can imagine, in an irish context, many of ye, are justifiably laughing yer arse off to the extent that ye are crying and then rage.

4. no one, particularily me, are suggesting that the ordinary legal immigrant like you have not contributed or at least tried to contribute to irish society.



we might be F*cked but our nation is not totally screwed yet, our parents went through worse. time for big balls. that attitude of writting it off aint needed

the advocate general's opinion, i did not discredit it. i simply pointed out, that we have yet to wait for the higher conclusive authority of the judges, who represent the various countries. if one has the means, i would strongly suggest exercising those eu rights and return via the singh principles. big problems though is that akrich might not be dead yet, even eu is not fully conclusive, has metock being considered by ecj since?


"I know article 8 does not give right to foreign nationals to stay in a particular place, but to expel a foreign national from a place where close member of their family resides,will infringe their right, except if it is justified by Article8 (2),which is not the case in Ireland.

If for example you are with a lady you love in Ireland, and the person is undocumented, you have a good job, all your family members live in Ireland, and the country from which your partner came from, don't speak english. Would it bejustified for the authorities to tell you to go and settle there, absolutely not."

ecthr caselaw have suggested exactly that. but but but, that is where you might succeed. even when they apply the abdullah, cables v uk and some other case that i can't think of, (but its a UK case) they would have to consider the following issues

+ irish spouses position in life, job, mortgage, possible children from other family, resposibilities towards other family members like old parents. I assure you that the minister is less strict when it involves spouses of Irish citizens!!!! I am personally aware of a couple of cases where the non eu spouse was illegal!!!! (i think though, there might have been help from a politican) there was another case, which i helped out a mate of a mate, in similar position, but she had all of the above examples (and they had a kid)

but its a different story requesting for other family members of that non eu spouse


If i was Monife, and i was serious about my partner, i would not have made those applications thus putting the minister on notice, and just got married before the asylum case is completely over. worth a shot,

[walrusgumble]

Most apply in good universities for the first year as there is more chances of securing a visa in big unies then in small ones. But chancers and not genuine students do get their way around it and come next year extension gets admitted in a small cheap and cheerful college that will do the job. that's not anybody's fault but the department's itself as they were giving visas on those dodgy colleges (now system is changed, more strict and stringent). corruption is/was rife in INIS and those students were offering mega bucks for visa extensions which led to one bend INIS muppet being arrested and thrown in jail.

see this http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsneycwkfsn/

But countless got away and some disciplined. But students do contribute quite a shit load to the irish economy, firstly by paying starting up 5-10K a year in fees A YEAR in which nearly 20% go to Mr. Revenue Commissioner! and also by consuming goods here, also if they are working thats win win for the exchequer. Again don't mix it up with the ones on asylum or LTR they are entitled to benefits, not every one willy nilly as you are suggesting.


you had more than 10k student alone a few years back dont know the exact number now...multiply that 10k with 13...you get the figure...thats again a roughly speaking not to mention their chunk of fees going to exchequer + their consumption here...they are contributing quiet a lot and are not strain on the system, same goes to all immigrants its not just PRSI/PAYE all the time, dont forget indirect taxes.

The €13 only came about one year ago, and you know this. I did acknowledge VAT, and landlords etc. I am aware of genuine students ie those who go to uni and it's, jesus, where do you think these places subsides themselves when there is no tutition fees for irish and eu. its undisputable that foreign students are the lifeblood of these institutions. I did however refer to the language students who go to these , ahem independent colleges. What I term, mickey mouse courses. That still does not justify any entitlement to over stay or breach the conditions of their visas

irsh and critics, actually mny irish people can. but what irish people don't tolerate is exagertion, groundless claims, and comments from countries that act more holier than thou. this is the first time that regular assertions like the ones you raised (and other countless of times eg taking jobs the irish did not want when it was patently obvious that they were all ready working in real jobs) are challenged


you for one most certainly can't. Irish already working in "REAL" jobs? Wow, if that is not arrogance then what is, i dont know!

ie IT, Manufacturing, argiculture, finance, business, jobs that actually give lasting effect to economy not jobs that are seasonal/retail/ reliant on one's so called disposable income, you know the fancy weekend breaks to &&&& hotel etc. you know full well, taking the dells/intel, construction etc out of the equation (where immigrants worked too) that many of the jobs created i were in the retail and recretional area. look at all the ghost towns with unneccessary shopping centres (btw that ain't immigrants fault) real jobs as in ones that provided benefit to a wider range of people and not one or two business people, real jobs as in where the butt of income tax comes from. you know full well that retail ain't going to save a country if people are broke and the products can't be exported.

what i should have said was irish people were already employed

yeah permit holder's spouse can just live and wash dirty pots and dishes in the Spam or clean his/her house! he/she cant go out and work as his/her permit holder spouse is....as far as living on street is concerned, i know there is strain on the services at present as money is scarce....but you are scare mongering thinking that shit pretty soon ireland will be overflowing and people will be falling in the atlantic on the west coast and irish sea in the east coast.

Right so you agree then that they should get priority over Irish and EU citizens simply because they are married? I am going to leave that issue or its going to turn into an episode of south park. originally these spouses actually were entitled to be allowed to work. but with the economy starting to turn south in 2006-2007 it was stopped. they are free to make their own applications for work permits. moreover, that time here, counts for citizenship!. they also should have known this before they came. There is no scare mongering, many will have left the country. should have also made an application the same time as the spouse. the fact that its a visa, its clear that its only temporary ie 2 year time period. you know full well with your country over the decades when visas were about, many irish went over to work on the roads and factories during ww2 or farm labouring in the 1950's in Scotland. many went home to their families thereafter.

Living on the street, well done, completely take things out of context again. you know full well , as an english person, the huge problems the fact that your country won't be too far away from the 90million mark soon and the serious need to get things sorted out. pensions etc. problems are already starting. hopefully, as bad as the irish are getting, hopefully, as bad as some sections of the irish are, they can refrain from taking it out on the immigrants unlike like some countries

you full well the problems young families here have in getting their kids booked into the required schools by in advance and the difficulties non irish children are having with english language etc, forcing parents to fork out extra money to help them. you are also well aware of the news stories of over populated schools etc. you are also aware of the likelihood that this country will only wake up to these problems when its too late. I am not taling about the immediate future I am talking about 20 - 30 years down the road. not every one can afford to emigrate

protest in dail, best of luck with that. how are people who are being delayed citizenship threatened with deportation? actually, those high court cases that stopped lawyers going to court to make a minister accountable for delays of more than 1 -2 years specifically stated that in those cases, provided that the minister is informed, could be able to succeed in forcing the minister to refrain from delaying. there is no contradiction


that was a joke...a pun intended towards your statement that you would stand in solidarity...yeah right !

all fine and well, any chance you could give your insight as to the question posed to you?

Not sending to Irish missions in Moscow or Tel Aviv you dope but to KGB in Moscow and Mosaad in Tel Aviv....they are good and quick at making Irish passports so no point sending it up to Tipperary anymore and paying 950 while you get it quick and cheap there!

Scotland Yard would not be strangers to those kind of schemes either Still, your right would save a bit of money

even with the 2-3 year delay (8 years or so), you will still have it before being eligible to even think about applying for citizenship of some of the other eu states, and that would be less if married to irish (exclude comparision to those who still allow for automatic)


guaranteed irish citizenship for irish spouses of good character after 3 years as bonafide marriage, if they got kids well then only 2 years. processing time no more than 8-9 months. background checks dont take that long from gardai or SW office. period!

there is no such thing as guaranteed citizenship. what part of the act do you not understand?. it will never happen. So you are an expert in the gardaí and social all of a sudden?. We are talking about a bunch of police who are so badly underfunded that they have to use their own mobiles and still have sh*te radios are suspectible to hackers. Ever try and get a vetting clear from the cops HQ in Tipperary ? nightmare. but ye you are right it should not take all that time. but should and actually do , are two different things. to be fair i don't know what else they have on that pulse system that can't be got within 5 minutes.

but you are wrong that they don't take that long. trust me, for whatever reason, they do. maybe special branch or whatever they call themselves now adays are outside one's house and tapping phones . god one must fell special. seriously though, again you should be able to get that checked under an foi despite restrictions. have a word with your local td to get him to put that before parliamentary q and a.

we are not discussing UK Home Office here or UKBA here in this forum...its Department of Justice and INIS. Lets leave st. george alone and concentrate on st. patrick shall we

True we are not. but i am explaining to you why i use britian as an example and not as you flippantly suggest competition and also trying to help you understand this countries position as you would know it back home. But we are also not talking about Italy and how they deal with reverse discrimination either, which people seem to forget is ignored by a substantial proportion of the eu population, your country included. So give up using Italy and the EU Directive when talking about Irish Immigration matters and we will get back to the INIS. Suits me. Its ye that start drawing the comparisons. Wonder how you or your fellow country people would like it being dictated etc by non nationals?. ( and no my dear patty, we are not talking about brussels.) it would have been nice of you all the same to actually answered my question on rights of residency for all classes of spouses of british citizenship so no moral high ground could be taken. I did not know st george represented all of the UK?

The other point I could make, is for reasons I set out as why Ireland looks to the UK, it would then suggest....... gasp, the UK are not that better than Ireland, that your good self would have problems with your spouse living there? how does that feel then if your own country discriminates on you? assuming i am correct that you are british / irish, that must not feel to good. maybe you should gave a go at them then too?

so learn from it and implement it as quiet alot of other things are implemented by INIS. I know what the negatives are...they are that INIS policies are gonna get caught out hence not stream lining the visa/citizenship processes and leave it under minister discretion, but this in return is bad for the department as they are brought to court, have to extend manpower towards answering calls and writing up thousands and thousands of copy paste letters in the word prcessors, thats not better use of the manpower now is it?

hang on who do you think you are talking too?, i ain't in the department of justice anymore. send that letter to the minister not me. out of interest, take the delays in citizenship aside, how do you think the government in britain will address their issues.

as for the courts, sadly, not while a certain few judges are around

[Monifé]

If i was Monife, and i was serious about my partner, i would not have made those applications thus putting the minister on notice, and just got married before the asylum case is completely over. worth a shot,

I don't see how getting married right now would help though. There has been many stories about Irish and Non-EU failed asylum seekers that are/get married and the Non-EU has been deported. Most recent and publicised one was that woman in, I think it was, Longford or Athlone.

With his previous immigration history, I don't see how a "Spouse of Irish National" application would be approved. They even say on their website that it is subject to their immigration history and status. And also, applications can take 12 months and at that time he is still not allowed work. Also, his asylum case I think would have been over now if it wasn't for the EU treaty rights application. In July, he got the Section 3 letter which our solicitor basically paused, pending the outcome of the application. It hasn't been reinstated yet.

Anyway, as serious as I am about my partner, and as much as I do believe he is my soul mate (cheesy I know), I am level-headed and do not want to be getting married for the wrong reasons (ie: immigration purposes) and ESPECIALLY if it is not a fool proof way of solving our problems (perhaps if it was fool proof, well then I would do it). I want to have a proper wedding with all my family (not an option if I get married at this time) and friends and free from stress and be able to start married life happily and like a normal married couple.

[Monifé]

(b) the delay, even if 2-3 years must be prejudicial. there is caselaw around (judge cooke and judge harding clarke 2008-2009) that sets out examples of this.

as for the courts, sadly, not while a certain few judges are around

You have mentioned immigration judges twice there, so I hope everyone doesn't mind if I hijack this thread slightly.

@Walrusgumble: Have you any links to previous cases of Judge Cooke or have you any notion of what kind of judge he is?

He is the one who granted our application for leave but I am not sure if he is presiding over the hearing. Maybe so.

[walrusgumble]

If i was Monife, and i was serious about my partner, i would not have made those applications thus putting the minister on notice, and just got married before the asylum case is completely over. worth a shot,

I don't see how getting married right now would help though. There has been many stories about Irish and Non-EU failed asylum seekers that are/get married and the Non-EU has been deported. Most recent and publicised one was that woman in, I think it was, Longford or Athlone.

With his previous immigration history, I don't see how a "Spouse of Irish National" application would be approved. They even say on their website that it is subject to their immigration history and status. And also, applications can take 12 months and at that time he is still not allowed work. Also, his asylum case I think would have been over now if it wasn't for the EU treaty rights application. In July, he got the Section 3 letter which our solicitor basically paused, pending the outcome of the application. It hasn't been reinstated yet.

Anyway, as serious as I am about my partner, and as much as I do believe he is my soul mate (cheesy I know), I am level-headed and do not want to be getting married for the wrong reasons (ie: immigration purposes) and ESPECIALLY if it is not a fool proof way of solving our problems (perhaps if it was fool proof, well then I would do it). I want to have a proper wedding with all my family (not an option if I get married at this time) and friends and free from stress and be able to start married life happily and like a normal married couple.

Unlike you, he got married after the deportation order.The 12 month waiting least, surprisingly would be a blessing in disguise. It would give him / her more breathing space and delay implementation of deportation order, and allow the couple to put the evidentiary evidence to gether.

Pitty other couples were not as level headed as yourself

[walrusgumble]

(b) the delay, even if 2-3 years must be prejudicial. there is caselaw around (judge cooke and judge harding clarke 2008-2009) that sets out examples of this.

as for the courts, sadly, not while a certain few judges are around

You have mentioned immigration judges twice there, so I hope everyone doesn't mind if I hijack this thread slightly.

@Walrusgumble: Have you any links to previous cases of Judge Cooke or have you any notion of what kind of judge he is?

He is the one who granted our application for leave but I am not sure if he is presiding over the hearing. Maybe so.

Judge Cooke and Judge Harding Clarke are High Court Judges, who, for the past 2 years, have adjudicated matters involving immigration and asylum.


The matters starts with this. Here the parties filed a case. Shortly before the case got heard, the department made a decision. Therefore, the only matter remaining was costs. The State argued that the parties should not have brought the case in the first place. Judge sent out warning signs.

http://www.courts.ie/__80256F2B00356A6B ... anguage_en~


See Point 15 of below. THe Nearing case, is the one I am referring too, this involved a delay in long term residency. For some reason I can't find the judgment, normally can

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean

My understanding is, he is fair, will listen to the case, and his cases are correct. THis, however, means he will often uphold the State, BUT, that with regard to eu cases, i am not sure, whatever the law is that is the case. He sat for years in Europe. So who knows. One would rather have him than clark (don't take this as any opinion, I am simply going from what i read and hear from friends who know better!!!!!)

[walrusgumble]

(b) the delay, even if 2-3 years must be prejudicial. there is caselaw around (judge cooke and judge harding clarke 2008-2009) that sets out examples of this.

as for the courts, sadly, not while a certain few judges are around

You have mentioned immigration judges twice there, so I hope everyone doesn't mind if I hijack this thread slightly.

@Walrusgumble: Have you any links to previous cases of Judge Cooke or have you any notion of what kind of judge he is?

He is the one who granted our application for leave but I am not sure if he is presiding over the hearing. Maybe so.

Judge Cooke and Judge Harding Clarke are High Court Judges, who, for the past 2 years, have adjudicated matters involving immigration and asylum.


The matters starts with this, re citizenship delays. Here the parties filed a case. Shortly before the case got heard, the department made a decision. Therefore, the only matter remaining was costs. The State argued that the parties should not have brought the case in the first place. Judge sent out warning signs.

http://www.courts.ie/__80256F2B00356A6B ... anguage_en~


See Point 15 of below. THe Nearing case, is the one I am referring too, this involved a delay in long term residency. For some reason I can't find the judgment, normally can

http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/markup.cg ... od=boolean

My understanding is, in relation to other matters involving immigration, he is fair, will listen to the case and do so respectively, and his cases tend not to be appealable. THis, however, means he will often uphold the State (in asylum, not sure), BUT, that with regard to eu cases, i am not sure, whatever the law is that is the case. He has vast experience. He sat for years in Europe so he knows his stuff. So who knows. One would rather have him than the other judge (don't take this as any opinion, I am simply going from what i read and hear from friends who know better!!!!!)

Look it basically falls on the ECJ's recent liberal interpretation and its insistance for for strong consideration of the preamble ie remove all obstacles. For reasons explained by your lawyer on links you provided, it would be a big own goal for this government to do what they are doing ie GFA and the fact that it fails to meet with the reality that in 10-15 years time the children of today, when getting married will likely, as of birth would be entitled to more than one nationality. Its a bit nonsensicial considering UK's past that it is likely that a Brit would have a citizen naturalised or by decent enjoy citizenship of another country never mind additional EU. THat Spainish case involving use of names will be telling)

You have a strong case, moreover, its a case that i don't think came before the court. if you can present it in a way that shows you are not a chancer, ie you all of a sudden discovered your new found love of britain you be fine (I was joking there ala Dermot Ahern's comments on the marriage trend between people of a certain nationality, moreover, I am aware of your family position, which as many have pointed out, = clear exercise and continuing exercise of families EU rights) By the way motive don't matter diddly. you are you are who you are

One has to remember, the Treaties are primary law, then the directive (which consolidated all the previous and newer provisions come from case law which have been liberal look at carpenter v uk 2001 as clear liberal but senseable approach) there is nothing absolutely nothing in those provisions that say the minister is correct


as i said before, i would lllllllllllllllllllllooooooooooooooooooovvvvvvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeeeeeeeeee to see how government can square that one up with the Irish Americans, many of whom (hope no one is looking as we might need to get the auld Trocaire boxes out ) were glorified plastic paddies. Why do i say that? , well come the days when certain parts of irish political circles flirted with the ahem, left, back in the day, our great paymasters, sorry, diasporia, where clipping the ears of paddy for sounding too commie for their tastes, after all, it did not suit their americanism (by the way , I am being sarastic towards the irish government and not americans, irish americans or others, just in that mood and distain for attitude taken by department, strictly with GFA)

Yes, we all can see america is not the eu, hmmmm, but as many of you love to say, it can't be one rule for the irish and another rule for others

I can however, see a big fall out and more hostility towards these marriages and complaints to brussels but that won't worry you

if you have not done so already, so letters, even legal papers should be sent to that eu group many speak about requiring a detailed letter for the courts. after all, the irish court have power to solve this and do it right. after ,all, lets be honest, unless legal aid would be willing to stump part of the bill, chances of a visit to ecj, if permitted by judge, might be difficult,


the part of the case, was ex parte? ie before judge only. the tresshold is low, ie good arguable case, which you clearly had. standard is higher at next stage but, its a case of what is the correct interpretation of EU LAW, and not what the minister thinks is justified. one is either british in ireland or not. you say you are a student. right hopefully you meet those criteria as the state will pick on that. however, you are/were at time of application probably relying on your family - so ok, talk to lawyer

You know you now have to fight the state lawyers. this is big deal case, i would imagine, no doubt your team are up for it. will cooke hear it? don't know, normally another will. should ask your lawyer, they would be the best people to tell you what the judge is like

[Monifé]

Thanks Walrusgumble.

Have looked at a good few of both their judgments and in a lot of them, leave wasn't even granted for Judicial Review, so seeing as we have leave, I am feeling more positive.

Also, I think with the solicitor and counsel I have, we have a strong chance of portraying the case well.

Only time will tell (unfortunately ) Getting a bit fed up at this stage but hopefully we will get a hearing early next year.