Stuck in Spain

Tobbe · Post by **Tobbe** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:12 pm

Awesome!

Canâ€™t believe that I missed that (and that our lawyer has as wellâ€¦.). Then we certainly have a case again

Thank you for the link!

Tobbe · Post by **Tobbe** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:47 am

Call me stupid but its time for a holiday and we are thinking Spain again (if it wasn't for the fact that we have family there we never ever bother with them again). My wife's Schegen visa has now expired so we are going to have to try the EEA family route again. We will go to the same airport in Valencia and we will bring exactly the same papers as last time, passports and a certified copy of our marriage certificate completed with an appostille certificate. On top of it we will bring printouts in Spanish of directive 2004/38/ec, royal decreto 240/2007 and the amendment of 240/2007.

I'm feeling a bit nervous about it but I reckon that we should be able to sail through this time as they now are aware of the laws. If we do, does that mean I exist again? Biggest problem might be the airliner when they see the refused entry stamp from last time but I should be able to convince them.

I'll let you know how it goes...

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:00 am

Have fun! And if you see the same immigration policeman, rub the amended law in his face!

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 11:13 am

Richard66 wrote:Have fun! And if you see the same immigration policeman, rub the amended law in his face!

No! In his hair, in his hair!

Anyway, good luck, Tobbe!

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 12:36 pm

Tobbe,

In light of the challenges of Spain, you might want to consider
(1) take pictures of you and your wife together in the airport as you arrive
(2) make friends with somebody on the airplane and get their name and address in case you need to prove you were there
(3) Most digital cameras and many cellphones can act as a voice recorder. Record your entry into the country in case there are any issues.
(4) Carry a copy of the ECJ case C-459/99 (MRAX vs Kingdom of Belgium) in English and Spanish

Finally, have a very nice trip!

ejw4h9 · Post by **ejw4h9** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 1:51 pm

@Tobbe-

I've been following this thread for quite some but it's my first time posting to it. Well done on following this whole thing through! I'm really curious as to how it goes this time around, and I wish you the best of luck. Thanks for updating your progress this whole time...it's been really informative. Have a great trip!

Post by **ca.funke** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 2:11 pm

Directive/2004/38/EC wrote:Tobbe,

In light of the challenges of Spain, you might want to consider
(1) take pictures of you and your wife together in the airport as you arrive
(2) make friends with somebody on the airplane and get their name and address in case you need to prove you were there
(3) Most digital cameras and many cellphones can act as a voice recorder. Record your entry into the country in case there are any issues.
(4) Carry a copy of the ECJ case C-459/99 (MRAX vs Kingdom of Belgium) in English and Spanish

Finally, have a very nice trip!

Hi Tobbe,

paranoid as I am, if you can, take the pictures suggested by "Directive" together with a current newspaper (for the date), and send them to some email/facebook/whatever account before proceeding to any official, to make sure they cannot be deleted/taken away from you. (For example under the excuse of security)

Other than these paranoid hints, I wish you a very pleasant journey

Rgds, Christian

Richard66 · Post by **Richard66** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:21 pm

Or take 2 picture cards with you. Take your pictures with the first one, then hide it and place the second one in the camera.

I would like to thank you for persevering until the case was resolved: you have done a great service for countless other family members who, as a result, will not need to fight. If more did like you EU laws would be more respected than they are at present.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:01 pm

ca.funke wrote:Other than these paranoid hints, I wish you a very pleasant journey :)

Other than these prudent hints, I wish you a very pleasant journey :)

Tobbe · Post by **Tobbe** » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:31 pm

Thanks for the support

A copy of the MRAX case is now printed and ready as well.

I'll do my best to document as much as possible. I deleted everything off my answer machine so I can call home and record any conversation, try to erase that from Spain. I also got 2 SD cards so I'll keep the swap card trick in mind.

Anyway it should be absolutely no problems at all this time around, I'm sure they have learn their lesson even if they won't admit it. If I see the bold man then I shall certainly do my best to rub it in any hair he might have left

Tobbe · Post by **Tobbe** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 10:39 am

We are back!

We turned up an hour earlier at Stansted in case of any arguing about visas. The check in lady knew what the stamped meant and didnâ€™t ask any questions.

Arrival in Spain and itâ€™s the old bold man in the passport booth! He sees the residence stamp, flicks through the rest of the passport and sees the deported stamp and smiles. Then stamps the passport and let us through. It took maybe 15 seconds and no questions asked. Somebody has learnt his lesson

So far great successâ€¦

We meet up with the lawyer. I check through the papers and it turns out she never sent a copy of my passport or a copy of my wifeâ€™s residence card to the court. Not very strange that we lost all the time thenâ€¦.. She thinks the case is really difficult, she canâ€™t understand the directive and it might be better if we just forget about it. At the end of the day we might just have been unlucky and had a dearly beloved border guard who had a bad day and there are dearly beloved in England and Bolivia as well so it is nothing to get upset about. Apparently the problem is that Sweden havenâ€™t given my wife an ID card and that is the cause of the problems but maybe we could get Spain to take Swedens â€œresponsibilityâ€

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:19 pm

Tobbe wrote:All in all we had an excellent time with a minimum amount of trouble.

Awsome! And thanks for the update!

I think it is very hard to find a lawyer who understands European law and can effectively use it. I am not sure why that is...

frogy · Post by **frogy** » Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:44 pm

I found some links and quotes concerning this issue:

â˜…Spain

DEPENDANT OF EU/SPANISH NATIONAL
IMPORTANT NOTICE: Under Directive 2004/38/EC and according to Real Decreto 240/2007, 16 February, Family members of an EU/EEE National in possession of a valid UK Residence Permit are not required of a visa to enter Spain . Please note that the UK Residence Permit must state that the holder is a family member of an EU/EEE National.

http://es.vfsglobal.co.uk/visacategories.aspx

â˜…Germany

You *DO NOT* need a visa for short stays in Germany if you are:

* a spouse or child of an EU/EEA/EFTA national if you hold a British "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National" and only if you are travelling together with the EU/EEA/EFTA national.

http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/l ... seite.html

â˜…Belgium

Accompanied by the EEA national (not a Belgian National), NO VISA REQUIRED. Please note that the residence permit must be endorsed in a valid passport or travel document.

Not accompagnied by the EEA national (not a Belgian National) visa required and regular Schengen visa procedures apply â€“ consult www.vfs-be-uk.com for more information.

http://www.diplomatie.be/london//media/ ... 5B1%5D.pdf

â˜…Czech

You may stay temporarily in the territory of the Czech Republic without a visa if you are:

1. a family member of an EU citizen, are not an EU citizen yourself and hold a temporary or permanent residence permit in the territory of another EU Member State, and the period of your stay does not exceed 30 days;
2. a family member of an EU citizen and your visa for a stay up to 90 days or transit visa has expired, provided that you stay in the territory with an EU citizen and the period of stay in the territory does not exceed 3 months.

http://www.mzv.cz/jnp/en/information_fo ... index.html

â˜…Denmark

Please note that if you hold an EU/EEA Residence Card (in the UK a sticker in the passport entitled Residence Documentation) according to Article 5 of EU Directive 38/2004, you do not need a visa for travel to Denmark.

You do not need to be accompanied by your EU/EEA spouse or partner.

A visa is, however, needed for travel to Iceland.

It is advisable to print this page and to present it together with your letter from UK Border Agency regarding your Residence Documentation and proof of your relationship with the EU/EEA national to the airline at the point of departure or Danish Border Control on entry into Denmark in case of problems.

http://www.amblondon.um.dk/en/menu/Cons ... Nationals/

â˜…Estonia

A family member of an EU/EEA/EFTA national, who in addition to the valid passport of the country of his/her nationality present a residence card, which has been issued pursuant to the Directive 2004/38/EC bearing the text "Residence Card of a Family Member of an EEA National ", may enter Estonia without a visa if the family member is travelling together with the EU/EEA/EFTA national or to the EU/EEA/EFTA national.

http://www.vm.ee/?q=en/node/4039

â˜…France

The foreign spouse of a EU national (except French national) may enter France without visa if they are holding:

- a valid travel document;
- a valid UK residence permit with the endorsement "family member of EEA national" (this endorsment is compulsory to be visa exempted) ;
- and if they are joining or travelling with the EU national.

EU

http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/Family-mem ... opean.html

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:30 am

frogy wrote:I found some links and quotes concerning this issue

Thanks, but we already have a detailled discussion here
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=27612

Post by **ca.funke** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:50 am

Thanks for all these links, frogy

The amount of incorrect information given by the embassies is getting less, but itÂ´s still horrendous!

Belgium:
Wrong: They say this is only applicable to EEA (not Belgian) citizens.
Correct: This is applicable to all EEA + EFTA (including Belgium!) citizens.

Wrong: If you donÂ´t have a residence-permit according to 2004/38/EC, you do need a visa.
Correct: Even without this, simply through being a family-member of an EEA/EFTA citizen, you can travel visa free.

Wrong: If you need a visa and donÂ´t book an appointment, a "24 Â£ fast track handling fee" will be applied.
Correct: The visa has to be treated in an accelerated manner by virtue of 2004/38/EC anyway, thus I guess this fee is illegal.

France:
Wrong: They say this is only applicable to EU (not French) citizens.
Correct: This is applicable to all EEA + EFTA (including French!) citizens.

Denmark:
Wrong: You need a visa to Iceland.
Correct: As this is applicable to all EEA + EFTA, this also includes Iceland.

These are just the pieces of incorrect info I found on the fly. IÂ´m pretty sure there is more.

Sarah T · Post by **Sarah T** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:17 am

[quote="Tobbe"]We are back!

We turned up an hour earlier at Stansted in case of any arguing about visas. The check in lady knew what the stamped meant and didnâ€™t ask any questions.

Arrival in Spain and itâ€™s the old bold man in the passport booth! He sees the residence stamp, flicks through the rest of the passport and sees the deported stamp and smiles. Then stamps the passport and let us through. It took maybe 15 seconds and no questions asked. Somebody has learnt his lesson

So far great successâ€¦

We meet up with the lawyer. I check through the papers and it turns out she never sent a copy of my passport or a copy of my wifeâ€™s residence card to the court. Not very strange that we lost all the time thenâ€¦.. She thinks the case is really difficult, she canâ€™t understand the directive and it might be better if we just forget about it. At the end of the day we might just have been unlucky and had a dearly beloved border guard who had a bad day and there are dearly beloved in England and Bolivia as well so it is nothing to get upset about. Apparently the problem is that Sweden havenâ€™t given my wife an ID card and that is the cause of the problems but maybe we could get Spain to take Swedens â€œresponsibilityâ€

frogy · Post by **frogy** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:01 am

Tobbe wrote:
@Tobbe!

Hi, just wondering when you say 'residence card', is that from your application of the EEA2 or some others? It would be nice to be able to not have to stamp the passport everytime we go through immigration as I travel quite a bit for work and am hoping that my passport will last for 5 years!

Thanks.

Hello,
Take Germany as an example:
on this page http://www.london.diplo.de/Vertretung/l ... seite.html
you could find a title called "British Residence Card" on the right hand side.
And it is a picture of EEA2 after you click on it.

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:09 am

Sarah T wrote: It would be nice to be able to not have to stamp the passport everytime we go through immigration as I travel quite a bit for work and am hoping that my passport will last for 5 years!

Then you should remind the immigration officers to comply with Article 5(3) of the Directive.

frogy · Post by **frogy** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:45 pm

ca.funke wrote: Belgium:
Wrong: They say this is only applicable to EEA (not Belgian) citizens.
Correct: This is applicable to all EEA + EFTA (including Belgium!) citizens.

France:
Wrong: They say this is only applicable to EU (not French) citizens.
Correct: This is applicable to all EEA + EFTA (including French!) citizens.

These are just the pieces of incorrect info I found on the fly. IÂ´m pretty sure there is more.

Is this because "EU nationals who have always lived in the country of their nationality are not exercising EU treaty rights and are therefore not considered Union citizens"?
"Their family members therefore are not covered by the provisions of Directive 2004/38/EC."
(quoted from Netherlands embassy)

Their wording is not careful enough, for sure!

86ti · Post by **86ti** » Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:51 pm

Guys, can you please stop hijacking this thread? We have discussed this topic a million times before (and I even linked to one thread...). Or open a new thread if you really feel like it.

Post by **ca.funke** » Tue Feb 21, 2012 12:23 pm

Tobbe wrote:Awesome!

Can’t believe that I missed that (and that our lawyer has as well….). Then we certainly have a case again

Thank you for the link!

Hi Tobbe,

did you continue your case after all?

Regards,
Christian

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Stuck in Spain

info from the official websites

Re: info from the official websites

Re: info from the official websites

so called "British Residence Card"

Re: info from the official websites