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Updates on Zambrano applications

Use this section for any queries concerning the EU Settlement Scheme, for applicants holding pre-settled and settled status.

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, CR001, zimba, meself2

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GLH2012
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Location: London

Re: Zambrano Refused....

Post by GLH2012 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:36 am

debab wrote:Hi all,
I got the decision on my zambrano application on Monday,the case worker mentioned that all the Nhs appointment letters and reports i submitted it was only a piece that was addressed to me,also the per-school letter was addressed to the Parent/carer,also that my son got the British passport thru his daddy,that i need to prove he can't take care of my son and if i could provide more documents showing my name.

They sent the appeal from and all others documents expect my passport since i don't have a valid stay,also that they are giving me time to go back to Africa that if not they will have to remove me by force.
Also said i could do article 8 or appeal their decision..

Please Advice on what next to do...
Sorry to hear this. Me as well.

evie233
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United Kingdom

Post by evie233 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:12 am

Glh2012 so sorry for your loss..

mam2
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Post by mam2 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:02 am

Sorry for your loss and also for the refusal. You can appeal or apply for the article 8. None of them will be quicker as it is.
papa2

debab
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Re: Application refused

Post by debab » Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:15 am

GLH2012 wrote:Hi everyone,
It's been quite awhile and an eventful weekend for me. My mum passed away this Sunday in my home country and am so devastated. Still in shock. Then on Monday, my Zambrano application got refused. The HO stated that the Secretary of State is satisfied that I am the primary carer of my son however refused the application because I have provided insufficient evidence to demonstrate that my son will be forced to leave the country if am to be removed. They went on to say my son acquired his British citizenship from his dad (obviously), and also got his passport for him (in 2007) this is 2013! We since split and never even lived together, he's moved from his former address in 2010. And they state that his failure and unwillingness to take care responsibility is not enough proof.
They gave me right of appeal as well as article 8 option. I seemed to know what to do before now. But in this state of grief I really can't think. After 19months, a refusal. What do I do folks please help because I need to travel ASAP.
GLH2012,sorry about your loss.
Can I do the appeal and still put in article 8?

kiss300
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Ghana

Post by kiss300 » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:01 pm

@GLH2012, SO SORRY FOR YOUR LOST AND THE REFUSAL AS WELL. ITS NOT EASY FOR YOU BUT ENCOURAGE YOURSELF AND DO THE APPEAL. IF I MAY ASK WAS YOUR PASSPORT RETURNED TO YOU? IF IT WAS, I WILL ALSO SUGGEST YOU DO THE ARTICLE 8 since you can do both.

i wish you the best of luck

Obie
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Ireland

Re: Application refused

Post by Obie » Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:33 pm

GLH2012 wrote:Hi everyone,
It's been quite awhile and an eventful weekend for me. My mum passed away this Sunday in my home country and am so devastated. Still in shock. Then on Monday, my Zambrano application got refused. The HO stated that the Secretary of State is satisfied that I am the primary carer of my son however refused the application because I have provided insufficient evidence to demonstrate that my son will be forced to leave the country if am to be removed. They went on to say my son acquired his British citizenship from his dad (obviously), and also got his passport for him (in 2007) this is 2013! We since split and never even lived together, he's moved from his former address in 2010. And they state that his failure and unwillingness to take care responsibility is not enough proof.
They gave me right of appeal as well as article 8 option. I seemed to know what to do before now. But in this state of grief I really can't think. After 19months, a refusal. What do I do folks please help because I need to travel ASAP.
Sorry to hear about your loss. I believe the best option is to appeal, and on appeal article 8 issues will be dealt with aswell.

UKBA's interpretation to Zambrano is beyond belief.
Smooth seas do not make skilful sailors

wiggsy
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Re: Application refused

Post by wiggsy » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:35 pm

Obie wrote:Sorry to hear about your loss. I believe the best option is to appeal, and on appeal article 8 issues will be dealt with aswell.

UKBA's interpretation to Zambrano is beyond belief.
Im sorry about your loss, and really gutted for your refusal too...
Keep strong, i'm not sure if your spiritual etc, but i like to believe myself when people pass they move onto a better place ( remember, the good go early... and the good get into heaven... )

@Kiss...

Even if passport wasnt returned, the fact that UKBA hold the passport is sufficient. When my wife applied for DRC we sent the Home Office copies to the EEA dept with the form, and told them it was being held by them. The solihull office forwarded on the passport.

I am agree'd with Obie. Appeal. We have decided to go for the appeal route also. Just out of "spite" to UKBA.

They are suggesting Article 8, and this is going to reduce their appeal losses.

Article 8 MUST BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT. Rob Whiteman confirmed to me in writing (which we will present to the court) that they will not consider art 8 on zambrano applications (WTF is that?)...
(if anybody would like a copy of the letter, I can send it to you.. but its basically a fob off letter that took their legal dept a month to write - although signed by Rob Whiteman and emailed to me)

As it stands, DRC "cannot" lead to PR / ILR... but this is also open to JR - as it is outright discrimination towards a certain group of people.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... chapter27/ < i found this, (JR Process)... and am looking through it... Im just not sure if my wife, our kids, or myself (or all of us) are the ones to file (my wife is the non-EEA, myself and kids are british).

Article 8 it appears is still not guarenteed (as mentioned earlier in this thread - somebody applying was refused)... remember unless you gain the DRC, you have no formal leave and therefore no appeal rights when it comes to the FLR(o) form - and a loss of hundreds of quid.

Get the DRC, and for "security" you can apply via the FLR, knowing you have leave to remain should they refuse your application then you get the appeal rights (correct me if im wrong on that please Obie?).

We've sort of started the PAP step, I highlighted over a month ago that failure to issue removal instructions to my wife breached sec 55 of the borders act - as established in court cases as the case involves children.

However, it appears that it needs to be a standard format letter.

(which can be emailed, or faxed too....
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary )

http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/proced ... v#IDAGJKCC
< recon the courts get a lot of PAP letter queries since they list UKBA specifically?

mam2
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Post by mam2 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:52 am

Wiggsy,have they made a decision on your wife's application?
I believe the rules interpreting zambrano will change after appeals
papa2

wiggsy
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Post by wiggsy » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:52 am

mam2 wrote:Wiggsy,have they made a decision on your wife's application?
I believe the rules interpreting zambrano will change after appeals
not yet... I've sent the Pre Action Protocol in relation to them failing to respond to FOI requests though...

I had a response from Eddy Montgommery this morning stating my wifes complaint against the way she was spoken to by Richard is not being progressed due to lack of evidence (WTF? - what kind of evidence do these people want?)
So i've responded telling them:
Seriously Eddy?

You have been provided with written correspondence outlining the date and issues.

Your teams foi response is clearly discriminative...

Also, where is the is96 for july?

No is96 and my wife doesn't report...
However, the issue of an Is96 will result in the pre action protocol beginning... For reasons already started...

Do you still insist my wife must report in july?

I'm well aware that legally no restriction can be imposed upon my wife.

Lets clarify matters...
I'm pretty sure on that basis, even though no decision has been made they are breaching C-34/09 by requiring my wife to report whilst a valid application is in process... and thus the entire matter can be heard in court?

GLH2012
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Post by GLH2012 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:55 pm

evie233 wrote:Glh2012 so sorry for your loss..
Thanks evie233.

GLH2012
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Location: London

Post by GLH2012 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:00 am

mam2 wrote:Sorry for your loss and also for the refusal. You can appeal or apply for the article 8. None of them will be quicker as it is.
Thanks you mam2. Appreciate your thoughts.

GLH2012
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Location: London

Re: Application refused

Post by GLH2012 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:06 am

debab wrote:
GLH2012 wrote:Hi everyone,
It's been quite awhile and an eventful weekend for me. My mum passed away this Sunday in my home country and am so devastated. Still in shock. Then on Monday, my Zambrano application got refused. The HO stated that the Secretary of State is satisfied that I am the primary carer of my son however refused the application because I have provided insufficient evidence to demonstrate that my son will be forced to leave the country if am to be removed. They went on to say my son acquired his British citizenship from his dad (obviously), and also got his passport for him (in 2007) this is 2013! We since split and never even lived together, he's moved from his former address in 2010. And they state that his failure and unwillingness to take care responsibility is not enough proof.
They gave me right of appeal as well as article 8 option. I seemed to know what to do before now. But in this state of grief I really can't think. After 19months, a refusal. What do I do folks please help because I need to travel ASAP.
GLH2012,sorry about your loss.
Can I do the appeal and still put in article 8?
Thanks @debab. I think you can appeal while you put in the Article 8 if you can afford it. I plan to do the same but the fees are quite high. Even then we have to do what we have to do.

wiggsy
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Post by wiggsy » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:15 am

has anybody who UKBA have already retained their passport attempted an FLR(o) application with just an accompanying letter stating that you are applying for them to also waive the application fee's. - all it will cost will be the postage if they decide to return the app as "incomplete for missing the payment"... (as my wife has her new passport, its too much of a risk to post her passport to them :P)

GLH2012
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Location: London

Post by GLH2012 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:17 am

@kiss300, thank you but my passport is still being held.

GLH2012
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Location: London

Post by GLH2012 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:31 am

wiggsy wrote:has anybody who UKBA have already retained their passport attempted an FLR(o) application with just an accompanying letter stating that you are applying for them to also waive the application fee's. - all it will cost will be the postage if they decide to return the app as "incomplete for missing the payment"... (as my wife has her new passport, its too much of a risk to post her passport to them :P)
@wiggsy thanks for your kind words earlier. Am a Christian and my mum was a very good Christian, people who knew her also believe she has made heaven.
My passport is being held and I plan to submit the FLR(o) form along with the supporting documents but regarding the fees, I have also contemplated applying for the exemption but am made to understand one has to be destitute first? I know am struggling to come up with the funds right now but I would rather my application is not returned as incomplete. So are you going to or have you submitted fresh applications on Article 8 for your wife?

GLH2012
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Location: London

Re: Application refused

Post by GLH2012 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:41 am

Obie wrote:
GLH2012 wrote:Hi everyone,
It's been quite awhile and an eventful weekend for me. My mum passed away this Sunday in my home country and am so devastated. Still in shock. Then on Monday, my Zambrano application got refused. The HO stated that the Secretary of State is satisfied that I am the primary carer of my son however refused the application because I have provided insufficient evidence to demonstrate that my son will be forced to leave the country if am to be removed. They went on to say my son acquired his British citizenship from his dad (obviously), and also got his passport for him (in 2007) this is 2013! We since split and never even lived together, he's moved from his former address in 2010. And they state that his failure and unwillingness to take care responsibility is not enough proof.
They gave me right of appeal as well as article 8 option. I seemed to know what to do before now. But in this state of grief I really can't think. After 19months, a refusal. What do I do folks please help because I need to travel ASAP.
Sorry to hear about your loss. I believe the best option is to appeal, and on appeal article 8 issues will be dealt with aswell.

UKBA's interpretation to Zambrano is beyond belief.
Thank you very much Obie. I plan to appeal and put in article 8 as well, hope i can do that (Trying to be very cautious with UKBA. They have really traumatised me and fellow Zambrano applicants over these past years). Thanks once again.

wiggsy
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Post by wiggsy » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:46 am

Destitute means so much...

Consider this: would paying the application fee take money out of the reach of making it easy to pay for food / heating / clothes for your kids?

(Unless your in a decent paid job [which is certainly more than a min wage full time job] I'd say you would fall into what is considered as "destitute"... = note: its "likely to become destitute" also... )

my wife hasn't been refused yet...

I've made it perfectly clear to rob whiteman I intend to challenge any refusal with JR on the basis that it doesn't follow law.

Also awaiting them to issue a new IS96 and will challenge that too... Not received the final decision on whether they intend my wife to "report" etc (but she isn't going to now...)... In the HIGHLY UNLIKELY event that she does "get removed" we'll simply move to Ireland (for which we are awaiting her Visa still, as the Irish demanded her expired passport in addition to new passport - hopefully soon though).

But FLR applicaiton, I dont think we will bother... the plan is DRC.. then apply for PR/ILR... when they refuse it, apply to JR on the basis of Discrimination.

ywright
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Solicitor doing my head in!!!

Post by ywright » Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:42 am

Hello all,
Pls, i will like you to give me your opinion on my situation... I am a single mum still on a post study visa. my baby father is married to another woman but he got british passport for my child. I went to see a solicitor and he said I should not do flr(o) as i will be refused because I have just done 3 years in the country. He said the Zambrano route is the best but all that I have read on the Zambrano route is not encouraging at all. It is very unfortunate that I have paid the solicitor half of his fees before i realised he will use zambrano route. Do I have a better chance as a single mum of a british child using the FLR(O)? The solicitor has confused me more and he said (authoritatively) that he is very sure the application will be refused if i do flr(o).
Pls, what do you think is my best chance before my visa runs out in mid August? Thanking you for your anticipated assistance and I wish you the best with your applications.

GLH2012
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Location: London

Re: Solicitor doing my head in!!!

Post by GLH2012 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 2:42 am

ywright wrote:Hello all,
Pls, i will like you to give me your opinion on my situation... I am a single mum still on a post study visa. my baby father is married to another woman but he got british passport for my child. I went to see a solicitor and he said I should not do flr(o) as i will be refused because I have just done 3 years in the country. He said the Zambrano route is the best but all that I have read on the Zambrano route is not encouraging at all. It is very unfortunate that I have paid the solicitor half of his fees before i realised he will use zambrano route. Do I have a better chance as a single mum of a british child using the FLR(O)? The solicitor has confused me more and he said (authoritatively) that he is very sure the application will be refused if i do flr(o).
Pls, what do you think is my best chance before my visa runs out in mid August? Thanking you for your anticipated assistance and I wish you the best with your applications.
My suggestion like in the other thread: apply for the FLR(O). Don't let your solicitor intimidate you. Because you still have leave in your passport, you'll be on a 5 year route to permanent residency. Even if you are given DRC for 5 years, it does not currently lead to permanent residency.

mam2
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Post by mam2 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:09 am

No,she wont be on the 5yr route but the 10yr route. Even though she has leave to remain, she didnt get that as a parent of a British child so she cant apply for that. She can apply for flro outside the rules which is EX1. May be that was what her solicitor was refering to saying she wont succeed(as a parent of British child).
papa2

GLH2012
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Post by GLH2012 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:13 am

mam2 wrote:No,she wont be on the 5yr route but the 10yr route. Even though she has leave to remain, she didnt get that as a parent of a British child so she cant apply for that. She can apply for flro outside the rules which is EX1. May be that was what her solicitor was refering to saying she wont succeed(as a parent of British child).
Ok my bad, the 10 year route then.

wiggsy
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Re: Solicitor doing my head in!!!

Post by wiggsy » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:07 am

ywright wrote:Hello all,
Pls, i will like you to give me your opinion on my situation... I am a single mum still on a post study visa. my baby father is married to another woman but he got british passport for my child. I went to see a solicitor and he said I should not do flr(o) as i will be refused because I have just done 3 years in the country. He said the Zambrano route is the best but all that I have read on the Zambrano route is not encouraging at all. It is very unfortunate that I have paid the solicitor half of his fees before i realised he will use zambrano route. Do I have a better chance as a single mum of a british child using the FLR(O)? The solicitor has confused me more and he said (authoritatively) that he is very sure the application will be refused if i do flr(o).
Pls, what do you think is my best chance before my visa runs out in mid August? Thanking you for your anticipated assistance and I wish you the best with your applications.
I would suggest you go for the FLR(o)...

Since you have leave atm, you do not need to prove your right of residency before application etc.

don't let your solicitor bully you. YOU PAY THEM. THEY DO WHAT YOU *INSTRUCT* THEM TO DO.
(is the way you were treated something to complain about?:
http://www.sra.org.uk/faqs/contact-cent ... citor.page )

Ensure you get all your OWN FRIENDS and family to write letters etc...

and highlight the Article 8/Zambrano notice from the IDI's. It's late, and im just off to bed so not gonna go trawling through to find the links... (i did mention the links to the FOI requests in this post though).

Remember that your child has an article 8 right to contact with his father (if he still sees him?) / step mother (again if he sees her) IN ADDITION to yourself. The Home Office cannot remove this right from the child

If the child does still have contact with the father, the DRC is surely doomed from the start (see previous message for letter asking my wife for proof she is the SOLE carer).

FLR(o) considers Human Rights not only of your child, but of you. You have been in this country for three years... so you surely have friends/family/etc here that you have settled here and formed a stable life for yourself... It will obviously cause an unreasonable obstacle for your own right to a the respect for your own private life if they expect you to leave. (this is in addition to the fact that removing yourself would also be deemed as to remove your child, which is against EU LAW)

Go for the FLR(o)... your already 3 years into the 10yr ILR... (from the way I understand it... its 10 years of LAWFUL residence... on ANY ROUTE... so just because your switching from student to 10yr route... you already began the journey...)

As mam pointed out...

the home office state that ILR / PR is not possible with the DRC... (regardless of if thats legall...)

If your willing to / and able to sort out your FLR... go for that... My friends wife's came through with no problems within a matter of weeks. she highlighted all the Zambrano principle and that shes a mother of a british child, and that she has a right to family life etc...

The solicitor is most likely just hoping for more money (knowing appeals on DRC)...

theres a lot to read... but check out the IDI's on the home office website... just ensure you state your case, send LOTS OF PHOTOS/ letters / etc...

(do you go to church? get a letter from vicar etc
doctors letters
tax credits? / child benefit? etc....)

letters from surestart centre stating how close your bond with your child is (who they cannot legally expect to leave the EU)

do you have contact with the local social services? if so, input from them... (FYI: I called my local Children's services... and they have actually told me, that they can arrange legal help should we need to go to court to ensure my wife stays etc...)

theres so much to include, so start looking now... AND DONT APPLY LATE!!!! OTHERWISE NO APPEAL RIGHTS.

kofi75
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Post by kofi75 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:36 am

mam2 wrote:No,she wont be on the 5yr route but the 10yr route. Even though she has leave to remain, she didnt get that as a parent of a British child so she cant apply for that. She can apply for flro outside the rules which is EX1. May be that was what her solicitor was refering to saying she wont succeed(as a parent of British child).
She can go on the 5 year route as long as she is not on a visitors visa.She can switch in country from a student visa to a parent of a british child.There are condition to satisfy though.
1.You will have to prove adequate accomodation,financial,english language proficiency test,sole responsibility of the child in the form of court residence order or access to the british child in the form of court contact order and also not owing anything more than £1000 on the NHS.
If you are confident to be able to satisfy all the above requirements,then you can go on the 5year route,other than that i ll advise to go on the EX1 which is the 10 year route where you will not necessarily have to prove the above mentioned requirements.

kofi75
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Re: Solicitor doing my head in!!!

Post by kofi75 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:53 am

ywright wrote:Hello all,
Pls, i will like you to give me your opinion on my situation... I am a single mum still on a post study visa. my baby father is married to another woman but he got british passport for my child. I went to see a solicitor and he said I should not do flr(o) as i will be refused because I have just done 3 years in the country. He said the Zambrano route is the best but all that I have read on the Zambrano route is not encouraging at all. It is very unfortunate that I have paid the solicitor half of his fees before i realised he will use zambrano route. Do I have a better chance as a single mum of a british child using the FLR(O)? The solicitor has confused me more and he said (authoritatively) that he is very sure the application will be refused if i do flr(o).
Pls, what do you think is my best chance before my visa runs out in mid August? Thanking you for your anticipated assistance and I wish you the best with your applications.
Since you have a valid student visa for a start,you can put in the FLR(O) before your LTR runs out.After that,you can put in Zambrano application simultaneously attaching a covering note referencing that your passport is with them already.With that you a can have both God's willing.Don't forget Zambrano is free and you have a right to reside unlike FLR(O)where you ll be under immigration control for 5 0r 10 years with no recourse to public fund boldly endorsed on your LTR.I believe Zambrano will be easily overturned in court.The UKBA policy in a whole is unlawful from the start for not considering the welfare of children.The policy and the decision are breaching Article3(1) of UNCRC which they are signatory to and obligated under international law to adhere to.Anyway this is for the Tribunals to decide

wiggsy
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Post by wiggsy » Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:12 pm

She does not have to apply for confirmation of DRC Kofi.

If they issue her FLR(o), she has proof that UKBA accept she is the primary carer for a British Citizen, and thus, JR can sort out the problem of the "No Recourse" stamp...

Did you read this email? ... it's what we are basing the fact DWP refused to pay me the couples rate of income support (and thus Zero payment) in november - as I get SSP... (SSP is more than single persons IS - it actually resulted in me having less money than being on IS as the CSA continued to consider my childrens CTC in my assessment, whereas IS would of resulted in a flat £5 charge (£10 more a week, meant I had a £23 higher liability for CSA - taking money off one kid to give another.)

The govt on a whole DOES NOT CARE about the UNCRC. The fact that they take money from one child, to give to somebody to go and get drunk etc proves that.

Locked