Non EEA husband and 6 yr old son called for interview.

[dochelp]

I am a A2 national who was issued with a registration certificate in 2007 as I was exercising treaty right as worker. My Non EEA national husband and son was issued with 5 yr Residence Card. I had two more children after this and unfortunately I had to quit work to care of our children. In 2008 when we applied for Residence Card for second child we had mentioned in the covering letter about the current circumstance and my husband was working and supporting us and a Residence card was issued without any hassle. This year we applied for permanent residence but the our documents were returned as they said I could not prove that I was exercising treaty rights as worker for the past 5 years and was asked to provide CSI covering the past 5 years.

Whilst we were contemplating what to do next, I received a letter today dated from 1/8/2012 addressed to my Husband and my 6 year old son to attend for an interview at a local UKBA office to discuss their current status on the 7/8/2012. Why such short notice? I am perplexed by this, why would they not invite me to attend to explain how I am exercising treaty rights? Is this the norm? Has anyone had any similar experience? Any chance my family would be served with any removal order? Should I apply for CSI tomorrow as a back up?


Any advice and comments will be much appreciated. Many thanks.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

I appreciate that you'd all applied for PR, but let's explore a worse case scenario.

Let's say the UKBA decided that none of you qualified for residence. This would be easily rectified if you demonstrated that you are a self-sufficient person today. To do that you could rely on your husband's income, but you would also be required to have comprehensive sickness insurance (CSI).

Bottom line, no deportation, nothing to worry about.

What are you currently doing in the UK?

[dochelp]

Thank you for your quick reply. I just had my 3rd baby 6 months ago, so caring for her now.

I appreciate that you'd all applied for PR, but let's explore a worse case scenario.

Let's say the UKBA decided that none of you qualified for residence. This would be easily rectified if you demonstrated that you are a self-sufficient person today. To do that you could rely on your husband's income, but you would also be required to have comprehensive sickness insurance (CSI).

Bottom line, no deportation, nothing to worry about.

What are you currently doing in the UK?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Thank you for your quick reply. I just had my 3rd baby 6 months ago, so caring for her now.

I appreciate that you'd all applied for PR, but let's explore a worse case scenario.

Let's say the UKBA decided that none of you qualified for residence. This would be easily rectified if you demonstrated that you are a self-sufficient person today. To do that you could rely on your husband's income, but you would also be required to have comprehensive sickness insurance (CSI).

Bottom line, no deportation, nothing to worry about.

What are you currently doing in the UK?

Ok, so if for some reason you do not qualify for PR, you could still qualify for residence rights if you can show that you are self-sufficient. Keep that in mind while you exhaust the PR process.

I would suggest you attend the interview as a complete family. You have nothing to hide. Insist on having appropriate translators if necessary.

[dochelp]

Ok, so if for some reason you do not qualify for PR, you could still qualify for residence rights if you can show that you are self-sufficient. Keep that in mind while you exhaust the PR process.

I would suggest you attend the interview as a complete family. You have nothing to hide. Insist on having appropriate translators if necessary.

Thank you for your advice, I am wondering if I will have enough time to procure a CSI given the short notice given to attend for the interview on Tuesday.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Do you work at all? Have you worked at all in the past 5 years? When did you, the EU citizen, arrive in the UK.

When did you (the EU citizen) last enter the UK?

Your family has a very strong legal right to be with you. They can suggest that they will/might expel your family, but as long as you (the EU citizen) remain in the UK, I think it is legally very questionable whether they can "remove" your family. I have heard of hassle, but I have never heard of an instance of the family being removed while the EU citizen remained in the UK.

EUSmile is right. As long as you have CSI, then you are legally in the UK and your family can stay. Get that sorted out and this issue goes away. Even get it for one month buys you time to figure out a longer term solution.

When they refused your PR card application, did they send back your and your husband's passport? Did they refer to "enforcement action" or "removal"? Where do they want to interview you? How exactly was the request worded?

Your family may have a choice whether to attend. If they do, you should definitely attend also. You should take very detailed notes. Take your time. Do not allow them to rush the whole thing. Make sure you carefully write down full names of everyone there and badge or ID numbers. Take your camera to take photos of paper they show you. You might also want to seriously consider having a lawyer there with you.

You and your family may also have the option to not attend. I am not a lawyer, but I am not sure if you are compelled to attend or not.

[dochelp]

Do you work at all? Have you worked at all in the past 5 years? When did you, the EU citizen, arrive in the UK.

When did you (the EU citizen) last enter the UK?

Your family has a very strong legal right to be with you. They can suggest that they will/might expel your family, but as long as you (the EU citizen) remain in the UK, I think it is legally very questionable whether they can "remove" your family. I have heard of hassle, but I have never heard of an instance of the family being removed while the EU citizen remained in the UK.

EUSmile is right. As long as you have CSI, then you are legally in the UK and your family can stay. Get that sorted out and this issue goes away. Even get it for one month buys you time to figure out a longer term solution.

When they refused your PR card application, did they send back your and your husband's passport? Did they refer to "enforcement action" or "removal"? Where do they want to interview you? How exactly was the request worded?

Your family may have a choice whether to attend. If they do, you should definitely attend also. You should take very detailed notes. Take your time. Do not allow them to rush the whole thing. Make sure you carefully write down full names of everyone there and badge or ID numbers. Take your camera to take photos of paper they show you. You might also want to seriously consider having a lawyer there with you.

You and your family may also have the option to not attend. I am not a lawyer, but I am not sure if you are compelled to attend or not.

Thank you for your input. I arrived in the UK in Oct 2003 as student, then changed by status in 2005 to a dependent visa, then got the Blue Card in 2007, I have continuously lived here since 2003 with the odd holidays out of the country not lasting more than 3 weeks in a year. I used to do part- time work as student but was in full time employment from Nov 2005 to March 2007.

They returned all our documents including passports in end of April after applying in March, it was mentioned in the letter then in bold that this letter did not constitute a refusal, it was a generic letter asking me to provide proof of working or if self-sufficient to show comprehensive sickness insurance.

The letter received today was addressed to my husband and son advising to the attend the Northumbria Local Immigration Team to discuss "current status".

I have been reading Instructions for assessing whether to administratively remove
an EEA national in the below link
http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... iew=Binary

Worrying


http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/immigrat ... 20.article

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

The letter received today was addressed to my husband and son advising to the attend the Northumbria Local Immigration Team to discuss "current status".

What are the exact words they used? They "require"? They "advise"?

When did you (the EU citizen) last enter the UK?

How old is your son, and what is his citizenship? Is he not EU?

[dochelp]

The letter received today was addressed to my husband and son advising to the attend the Northumbria Local Immigration Team to discuss "current status".

What are the exact words they used? They "require"? They "advise"?

When did you (the EU citizen) last enter the UK?

How old is your son, and what is his citizenship? Is he not EU?

Exact wording of the letter addressed to my husband and son.

" You are both requested to attend UK Border Agency office at the address detailed above on 7/8/2012 at 9:30 to discuss your current status within the UK.

You are required to bring with you documentation for all your family members relating to your identity and stay in the UK, including passports, identity cards, marriage certificates and any documents confirming employment and/or studies in the UK for you and your wife.

If you have legal representation then they are permitted to accompany you to the interview.

If you are unable to attend please contact the office on the number above to arrange another suitable time or date, at the earliest opportunity "

If you mean when did I last return from holiday abroad -it was in Sept 2011.

My son is 6 and has the same nationality of my husband who is a Non-EEA citizen. I wonder and hope they have called them in because their Residence Card had expired in March 2012 and genuinely wanted to know what their current status.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

You may be interested in this new paper on CSI: http://www.ilpa.org.uk/data/resources/1 ... rance-.pdf

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I am assuming that your husband works and earns enough that you and your family are not at all or not excessively dependent on social benefits.

So, the quick way for you to fix this problem is to get CSI for you and your family. Bupa or something similar should suffice though I am sure there are many other options. There are no guidelines about what is required, but I personally would get the cheapest form available.

As soon as you have it, you immediately meet all the requirements of "self sufficiency" under the EEA Regs.

You can then mail a letter to UKBA saying "I am a qualified person. Attached is the evidence. I do not see any need for my family to meet with you. Thank you."

Another option is that you, the EU citizen, could leave the UK and then renter. Fly to Dublin or Frankfurt, have a quick drink there and then fly back. On entering you have an initial right of residence for 90 days, and so does your family.

This may be harder to coordinate and only lasts for 90 days and then you are back to your current situation. (That is why I asked when you last entered the UK).

As the previous link mentions, there is ongoing discussion between UKBA and the European Commission about whether NHS coverage counts as CSI. For now UKBA says it does not.

If you are to remain in the UK, then either you (the EU citizen) needs to be working (part time is fine), or you need to get CSI.

Does this make sense?

[thsths]

This year we applied for permanent residence but the our documents were returned as they said I could not prove that I was exercising treaty rights as worker for the past 5 years and was asked to provide CSI covering the past 5 years.

CSI has been discussed here quite a bit, and what the Home Office requires is widely regarded as unlawful. The European Commission is currently in discussing with the Home Office, and they are considering to sue the UK for compliance with European law. You situation is especially clear, because your husband is actually paying for the NHS - so surely that means that you as a family are entitled to NHS cover. You may consider contacting the European Commissions, they may use your case as an example, which would only be to your benefit.

If everything else fails, you can always go to court over it. You have the support of the European institutions in this case. The Home Office would be incredibly stupid to let it come to this, and I doubt they will, but of course then again they have been acting rather strangely before.

So the easy route would be to get CSI, but you are perfectly within your rights not to do so and to stay with the NHS. The choice is yours.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

This year we applied for permanent residence but the our documents were returned as they said I could not prove that I was exercising treaty rights as worker for the past 5 years and was asked to provide CSI covering the past 5 years.

CSI has been discussed here quite a bit, and what the Home Office requires is widely regarded as unlawful. The European Commission is currently in discussing with the Home Office, and they are considering to sue the UK for compliance with European law. You situation is especially clear, because your husband is actually paying for the NHS - so surely that means that you as a family are entitled to NHS cover. You may consider contacting the European Commissions, they may use your case as an example, which would only be to your benefit.

If everything else fails, you can always go to court over it. You have the support of the European institutions in this case. The Home Office would be incredibly stupid to let it come to this, and I doubt they will, but of course then again they have been acting rather strangely before.

So the easy route would be to get CSI, but you are perfectly within your rights not to do so and to stay with the NHS. The choice is yours.

While I certainly think it is worth a good fight, the person wanting to do this needs to expect a good fight from UKBA back. Remember that UKBA has intentionally not positively responded to the Commission’s requests in this area.

Remember that the OP is not working and has one or more of small children. The one person who is working is somebody UKBA is asking to report for enforcement enquiries.

At the very least it makes sense to get CSI for the next few months while the OP considers the legal options and then decides to act. This allows her to plan legal strategy while knowing that even according to the UKBA rules she is a fully qualified person and her husband and child can remain.

[dochelp]

This year we applied for permanent residence but the our documents were returned as they said I could not prove that I was exercising treaty rights as worker for the past 5 years and was asked to provide CSI covering the past 5 years.

CSI has been discussed here quite a bit, and what the Home Office requires is widely regarded as unlawful. The European Commission is currently in discussing with the Home Office, and they are considering to sue the UK for compliance with European law. You situation is especially clear, because your husband is actually paying for the NHS - so surely that means that you as a family are entitled to NHS cover. You may consider contacting the European Commissions, they may use your case as an example, which would only be to your benefit.

If everything else fails, you can always go to court over it. You have the support of the European institutions in this case. The Home Office would be incredibly stupid to let it come to this, and I doubt they will, but of course then again they have been acting rather strangely before.

So the easy route would be to get CSI, but you are perfectly within your rights not to do so and to stay with the NHS. The choice is yours.

While I certainly think it is worth a good fight, the person wanting to do this needs to expect a good fight from UKBA back. Remember that UKBA has intentionally not positively responded to the Commission’s requests in this area.

Remember that the OP is not working and has one or more of small children. The one person who is working is somebody UKBA is asking to report for enforcement enquiries.

At the very least it makes sense to get CSI for the next few months while the OP considers the legal options and then decides to act. This allows her to plan legal strategy while knowing that even according to the UKBA rules she is a fully qualified person and her husband and child can remain.

Thank you guys for the above advice, it is really invaluable. I tried WPA for insurance now but they are closed for the weekend. Will try BUPA. I hope they will be able to sort out CSI in a day. Interview on Tuesday.

[dochelp]

We decided to go as a family, got the BUPA comprehensive cover, would you recommend we pay and take a lawyer along? Many thanks.

[eldane]

This year we applied for permanent residence but the our documents were returned as they said I could not prove that I was exercising treaty rights as worker for the past 5 years and was asked to provide CSI covering the past 5 years.

CSI has been discussed here quite a bit, and what the Home Office requires is widely regarded as unlawful. The European Commission is currently in discussing with the Home Office, and they are considering to sue the UK for compliance with European law. You situation is especially clear, because your husband is actually paying for the NHS - so surely that means that you as a family are entitled to NHS cover. You may consider contacting the European Commissions, they may use your case as an example, which would only be to your benefit.

If everything else fails, you can always go to court over it. You have the support of the European institutions in this case. The Home Office would be incredibly stupid to let it come to this, and I doubt they will, but of course then again they have been acting rather strangely before.

So the easy route would be to get CSI, but you are perfectly within your rights not to do so and to stay with the NHS. The choice is yours.

While I certainly think it is worth a good fight, the person wanting to do this needs to expect a good fight from UKBA back. Remember that UKBA has intentionally not positively responded to the Commission’s requests in this area.

Remember that the OP is not working and has one or more of small children. The one person who is working is somebody UKBA is asking to report for enforcement enquiries.

At the very least it makes sense to get CSI for the next few months while the OP considers the legal options and then decides to act. This allows her to plan legal strategy while knowing that even according to the UKBA rules she is a fully qualified person and her husband and child can remain.

Thank you guys for the above advice, it is really invaluable. I tried WPA for insurance now but they are closed for the weekend. Will try BUPA. I hope they will be able to sort out CSI in a day. Interview on Tuesday.

Hi Dochelp et al,

Not being a native English speaker, but my understanding from the posts is that UKBA has offered an option to attend another suitable time and date.

As you do not have your CSI sorted I would say it is not a suitable time and date to you and request another appointment.

Many thanks,
Eldanes

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

It is a week day at 930am. It does not strike me as a suitable time at all. How about a weekend at 11am? I would not want to take time off work to go and waste my time like this.

[dochelp]

It is a week day at 930am. It does not strike me as a suitable time at all. How about a weekend at 11am? I would not want to take time off work to go and waste my time like this.

Well said, I will give them a call tomorrow. Lets see what their response is?

[dochelp]

It is a week day at 930am. It does not strike me as a suitable time at all. How about a weekend at 11am? I would not want to take time off work to go and waste my time like this.

Well said, I will give them a call tomorrow. Lets see what their response is?

Thanks for all your help. We moved the interview to tomorrow at 2:30pm. Now worried if they can deport my husband and child by saying I was not exercising treaty rights prior to getting CSI and that I got the CSI only after they send the letter for the interview. Simply stressing myself

[Obie]

I believe they will be fine, whatever the plans that UKBA has for them in store.

They cannot simply put them in plane like that. With a 6year old child, the likelihood of detention is slim.

They will have a right of appeal in any event, with you exercising treaty right, in a stable relationship, the best interest of the 6 years old who is likely to be in school, i believe thete is a decent chance of success in worst case scenerio.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I believe they will be fine, whatever the plans that UKBA has for them in store.

They cannot simply put them in plane like that. With a 6year old child, the likelihood of detention is slim.

They will have a right of appeal in any event, with you exercising treaty right, in a stable relationship, the best interest of the 6 years old who is likely to be in school, i believe thete is a decent chance of success in worst case scenerio.

Obie, I think this is a little misleading.

They are, like you, family members of EU citizens. Their right to remain is as strong as yours, unless I am missing something obvious.

On what grounds could UKBA possibly detain them at this point?

RC cards and PR cards are "optional" in the UK. So that is not a problem.

Let me assume that they are not a large and ongoing threat to national security or public policy (it is hard to imagine a 6 year old ever satisfying either of these). Nor are they likely major threats to public health (Any WHO listed major contagious diseases like Ebola?).

So on what basis does UKBA even have even an option to consider any sort of removal option against the husband and child?

[Obie]

I was not seeking to mislead anyone. I am sorry if you think i am.
I was simply seeking to reassure the OP that the law is on their side, whatever the outcome of the meeting.

In most cases, UKBA tends to invite people for interviews at enforcement centres when they are seeking to do something rather dubious.

Yes they have a right to remove family members if their EEA sponsor cease from being a qualified person. They can withdraw residence for reasons other than Public policy or security in the circumstance mentioned above or if the person becomes an unreasonable burden to the host memberstate.

From the OP's post i gathered he may have at some point in the past cease from being a qualified person albeit temporarily. However seemed to be qualified now on the badis of his post. Even if he is not, the UKBA are oblidge to read community law in accordance with the charter of fundamental rights Article 7 or ECHR Article 8. Furthermore they are suppose to consider section 55 of the UKBA act 2007, which deals with the best interest of children.


All of this indicates that it will be difficult for the UKBA to take adverse action against the OP's family, without them breaking the law, whatever the position in regards to the treaty rights aspect.

That was my view. Perhaps it was not clearly or concisely explained, but it was certainly not aimed at misleading or instilling fear on OP.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

I am sure you were seeking to mislead anyone. Just that what you had written could be misleading, or maybe more clearly misunderstood.

[UKBA] have a right to remove family members if their EEA sponsor cease from being a qualified person.

I think this is open for discussion.

If they remove the EEA citizen sponsor because they are not a qualified person, then they certainly have the right to also remove the family members. But removing the family members while leaving the EEA citizen in the UK? Not so obvious. MRAX and a lot of case law speaks against it.

ECJ case C-459/99 MRAX v Etat Belge [2002]

53. It is apparent in particular from the Council regulations and directives on freedom of movement for employed and self-employed persons within the Community that the Community legislature has recognised the importance of ensuring protection for the family life of nationals of the Member States in order to eliminate obstacles to the exercise of the fundamental freedoms guaranteed by the Treaty (Carpenter, cited above, paragraph 38).

61. In view of the importance which the Community legislature has attached to the protection of family life (see paragraph 53 of this judgment), it is in any event disproportionate and, therefore, prohibited to send back a third country national married to a national of a Member State where he is able to prove his identity and the conjugal ties and there is no evidence to establish that he represents a risk to the requirements of public policy, public security or public health within the meaning of Article 10 of Directive 68/360 and Article 8 of Directive 73/148.

(And paragraph 61 is in spite of the family member not having the required visa!)

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Just to be very clear to the OP, Regulation 14 is the reason your family member has a right to be in the UK whenever you are a "qualified person".

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2006 ... on/14/made

The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006
Extended right of residence

14.—(1) A qualified person [THIS IS THE EU CITIZEN] is entitled to reside in the United Kingdom for so long as he remains a qualified person.

(2) A family member of a qualified person residing in the United Kingdom under paragraph (1) or of an EEA national with a permanent right of residence under regulation 15 is entitled to reside in the United Kingdom for so long as he remains the family member of the qualified person or EEA national.

(3) A family member who has retained the right of residence is entitled to reside in the United Kingdom for so long as he remains a family member who has retained the right of residence.

(4) A right to reside under this regulation is in addition to any right a person may have to reside in the United Kingdom under regulation 13 or 15.

(5) But this regulation is subject to regulation 19(3)(b).

(3) (4) and (5) are not relevant to this situation, but I have not edited them away.

[dochelp]

Thank you everyone for your advice, will let you know how we got on.