UK-born brother in 1986 from Greek parents

[englishgreek]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone could help me with the following query.

My younger brother was born in the UK in 1986 - two years after the law changed, I know. Both our parents are Greek. I believe that he would be able to claim citizenship if both parents were 'free from migration restrictions' at the time. But what exactly does that mean? I suspect -but I am not sure, and our parents don't quite remember- that they had to apply for a visa at the time, even though both countries were already EC/EU members.

Any idea, anyone? Would he be able to claim UK citizenship?

[geriatrix]

Free from immigration restrictions = PR (under EU directives) or ILR (under UK immigration rules).

Are the parents still living in the UK, i.e.- have continued to live here since?

[englishgreek]

Free from immigration restrictions = PR (under EU directives) or ILR (under UK immigration rules).

Are the parents still living in the UK, i.e.- have continued to live here since?

Thanks for your response! Excuse my ignorance, I am not quite sure what PR is. I just found this below; surely this would mean our parents would just have to exercise treaty rights (work? study?) in the UK at the time of his birth? And wouldn't that mean it's irrelevant if the parents are still here (they are not, they have gone back).

Many thanks again.



If your parents are citizens of the European Economic Area (EEA)

If you were born in the UK on or after 1 January 1983 but before 2 October 2000, you are a British citizen if, at the time of your birth, either of your parents was an EEA citizen who was exercising Treaty rights under European Community (EC) law. This is because your parent's stay is regarded as having been free of a time limit under immigration laws.

From

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... territory/

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

You've found the information for yourself, good for you.

Were either of your parents were exercising treaty rights (workers for example) at the time of your brother's birth? Can they prove that? Presumably your brother has a British birth certificate.

(PR is permanent residence. It's not really relevant to your question.)

[englishgreek]

You've found the information for yourself, good for you.

Were either of your parents were exercising treaty rights (workers for example) at the time of your brother's birth? Can they prove that? Presumably your brother has a British birth certificate.

(PR is permanent residence. It's not really relevant to your question.)

Cheers! I stumbled upon it after I posted this question; I hope I'm not taking up from the forum's valuable space. Yes, they were working; and it was in a public institution, so presumably it will be easy to prove. Fantastic, then -- we will start looking for the birth certificate (there must be one!) and proof of employment, that seems to be all that's needed.

Many thanks!

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Cheers! :) I stumbled upon it after I posted this question; I hope I'm not taking up from the forum's valuable space. Yes, they were working; and it was in a public institution, so presumably it will be easy to prove. Fantastic, then -- we will start looking for the birth certificate (there must be one!) and proof of employment, that seems to be all that's needed.

Many thanks!

I think it's great that someone answers their own question. Your post may help others.

If you know where your brother was born, it is possible to get a copy of his birth certificate. I hope you can find evidence of one of your parents' employment.

[englishgreek]

I think it's great that someone answers their own question. Your post may help others.

If you know where your brother was born, it is possible to get a copy of his birth certificate. I hope you can find evidence of one of your parents' employment.

Cheers - so, a final question: the excerpt below is from the application guide NS. Isn't it a bit strange that they ask for evidence documents to date from then? So, would that mean that the letter our parents receive from the employer would have to be dated from that far back? Shouldn't a letter with a present date confirming they were working with them back then suffice? Apologies if this is a silly question; I'm a little bit baffled.

The evidence must be original and date from around the time that the events to which it relates took place. For example, birth many years ago should be evidenced using documents that existed around that time.

[JAJ]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone could help me with the following query.

My younger brother was born in the UK in 1986 - two years after the law changed, I know. Both our parents are Greek. I believe that he would be able to claim citizenship if both parents were 'free from migration restrictions' at the time. But what exactly does that mean? I suspect -but I am not sure, and our parents don't quite remember- that they had to apply for a visa at the time, even though both countries were already EC/EU members.

Any idea, anyone? Would he be able to claim UK citizenship?

The law changed from 1.1.1983.

It's not mentioned in the Home Office document (not even in the Nationality Instructions, as far as I can see) however when Greece joined the then EEC in 1981, there was a seven year transition period in which free movement of labour did not apply. Details are in the Accession Treaty of Greece document. Existing Member States did not have to apply these requirements to Greek citizens but most of them did so.

http://www.lexnet.dk/law/subjects/treaties.htm
(Accession Treaty is available, restriction shown on page 27).

Assuming this was enforced in the United Kingdom, your Greek parents would need to have had visas to live and work in Britain in 1986. However, if they had been granted Indefinite Leave to Remain - normally after 4 years - then your brother would be British by birth. If that's the case, I would go ahead and apply on form NS, give as much detail on your parents as you can and home that the Home Office have not lost or thrown away the immigration records from that time.

When did your parents come to Britain to live, and did they ever become British citizens?

If it turns out your parents did not have ILR when your brother was born, the best option - if he has always lived in the U.K. - is registration under the Form T provisions.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... /borninuk/

Does he not have a Greek passport already? He should get a British passport as it would not be advisable to rely on Greek citizenship as a long term basis to remain in Britain, but it will ensure he can work, travel, etc. in the meantime.

[englishgreek]

Thank you so much, JAJ, this is crucial info. Again, testifies to how invaluable this forum can be.

It's not mentioned in the Home Office document (not even in the Nationality Instructions, as far as I can see)

Could this be (off-chance!) that freedom of movement is perhaps applied retrospectively? Or are the HO guidelines simply too vague?

However, if they had been granted Indefinite Leave to Remain - normally after 4 years - then your brother would be British by birth.

I strongly suspect (though I have to check) that at least my mother was here for more than 4 years. But, I am almost certain she did not apply for ILR. As an EU citizen, would this be granted to her automatically after these four (or five?) years? Or would she have had to apply separately? I guess my question is, if my brother could prove our mother was here for 4+ years, and that he was born here, isn't there a good enough chance that he will convince HO this is suffices?

If that's the case, I would go ahead and apply on form NS, give as much detail on your parents as you can and home that the Home Office have not lost or thrown away the immigration records from that time.

Can I just ask, why? What happens if the immigration records are thrown away?

When did your parents come to Britain to live, and did they ever become British citizens?

Pretty certain mother moved here in 1981, they moved back in 1986 or 1987; but I have to check.

[JAJ]

Could this be (off-chance!) that freedom of movement is perhaps applied retrospectively? Or are the HO guidelines simply too vague?

The Home Office guidelines are good, but they are not fully comprehensive. You may wish to find a competent immigration solicitor to research what the law really was at the time and advise accordingly.

I strongly suspect (though I have to check) that at least my mother was here for more than 4 years. But, I am almost certain she did not apply for ILR. As an EU citizen, would this be granted to her automatically after these four (or five?) years? Or would she have had to apply separately? I guess my question is, if my brother could prove our mother was here for 4+ years, and that he was born here, isn't there a good enough chance that he will convince HO this is suffices?

It is quite possible that between 1.1.1981 and 31.12.1987, free movement of labour did not apply to Greek citizens. If that's the case there is probably one of two options:

a. parents moved legally with a work permit and in that case probably got ILR under normal rules, after 4 years; or
b. parents simply worked in the U.K. with their Greek passports, which may not have been legal at the time.

In the first case, your brother would probably be British and in the second case, probably not.

Can I just ask, why? What happens if the immigration records are thrown away?

Then you're out of luck. It shouldn't happen - but has happened at different times.

That's why it's so important to a. document things early, not years later and b. keep own copies of all documents, not rely on government.

Pretty certain mother moved here in 1981, they moved back in 1986 or 1987; but I have to check.

You need precise dates, not guesswork. What about the father?

Do they have any documentation from that time, passports, etc, that could give a clue as to their immigration status?

Your brother can get a copy of his English birth certificate fairly easily and he should have one anyway. And did he stay in the U.K. or not?

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

There is some information on the "Southern Enlargement" in this document (includes Greece).

Home Office, The impact of EU enlargement on migration flows, Online Report 25/03, 2003

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov. ... lr2503.pdf

See chapter 5 from page 41

[englishgreek]

It is quite possible that between 1.1.1981 and 31.12.1987, free movement of labour did not apply to Greek citizens. If that's the case there is probably one of two options:

It seems like you are spot on here.

a. parents moved legally with a work permit and in that case probably got ILR under normal rules, after 4 years; or
b. parents simply worked in the U.K. with their Greek passports, which may not have been legal at the time.

It is definitely (a). They do remember getting work permits all along. The "British passport" question, now, is: would they be granted ILR automatically (as was, for example, the case with me, a few years ago) or would they have to specifically apply for ILR (after 4 years or however long) because they had migration restrictions previously?

You need precise dates, not guesswork. What about the father?

Do they have any documentation from that time, passports, etc, that could give a clue as to their immigration status?

Your brother can get a copy of his English birth certificate fairly easily and he should have one anyway. And did he stay in the U.K. or not?

Father spent less years here. We're now digging in cupboards, attics and everywhere else to find mother's old passports etc. Quite some luck so far. And yes, English birth certificate does seem easy to get - and he will. But no, he moved away from the UK soon thereafter, but is that important? Is it because of the option of being naturalised because he spent his first 10 years here? That's definitely ruled out. IMHO it's all down to whether our mother would have been granted (automatically) ILR, after having spent more than four years in the country. If you can advise on that, it'd be most appreciated!

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Free from immigration restrictions = PR (under EU directives) or ILR (under UK immigration rules).

Are the parents still living in the UK, i.e.- have continued to live here since?

Thanks for your response! Excuse my ignorance, I am not quite sure what PR is. I just found this below; surely this would mean our parents would just have to exercise treaty rights (work? study?) in the UK at the time of his birth? And wouldn't that mean it's irrelevant if the parents are still here (they are not, they have gone back).

Many thanks again.



If your parents are citizens of the European Economic Area (EEA)

If you were born in the UK on or after 1 January 1983 but before 2 October 2000, you are a British citizen if, at the time of your birth, either of your parents was an EEA citizen who was exercising Treaty rights under European Community (EC) law. This is because your parent's stay is regarded as having been free of a time limit under immigration laws.

From

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/briti ... territory/

Please see this caveat before continuing and re-read the link you'd posted...

I am not fully familiar with British citizenship rules and historical EU treaty rights. I do have some information that might be of use to you. Use it as a guide and check it out for yourself.

As you know, UK citizenship law changed on Jan1 1983.

When the UK joined the EEC, the relevant directives and regulations were essentially implemented under the immigration rules.

On October 2nd 2000, the The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2000 came into force. This changed the treatment that EU nationals had in UK law and in particular with regards to British Nationality Act 1981 (see regulation 8 and also the annex to the regulations).

This is why there is a distinction made on the UKBA citizenship website.

If you were born in the UK on or after 1 January 1983 but before 2 October 2000, you are a British citizen if, at the time of your birth, either of your parents was an EEA citizen who was exercising Treaty rights under European Community (EC) law. This is because your parent's stay is regarded as having been free of a time limit under immigration laws.

The slight complication is the status of Greek citizens at that time, but if they were in the UK and working in accordance with the terms accession treaty, they appear not to have needed to have applied for ILR in order for the UK born children to claim citizenship.

I suggest you try and engage expert opinion if you can as this is pretty specialised.

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Link the 2000 regulations here

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000 ... tents/made

[EUsmileWEallsmile]

Annex A of this document gives some history as to how the European regulations were dealt with in the past.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitec ... iew=Binary

[JAJ]

It is definitely (a). They do remember getting work permits all along. The "British passport" question, now, is: would they be granted ILR automatically (as was, for example, the case with me, a few years ago) or would they have to specifically apply for ILR (after 4 years or however long) because they had migration restrictions previously?

As far as I am aware, ILR under the domestic immigration rules in the 1980s was similar to the way it is today. It had to be applied for. That said, many people on work permits did normally apply for ILR after 4 years. It was probably easier and cheaper to get ILR in those days than it is today.

Other than that, there may have been special rules under the EEC Treaty allowing certain Greek citizens to live freely in Britain in the 1981-87 period, for example, retired and self-employed persons.

Again - you'd need an immigration solicitor to research the history of all these provisions.

However, if you can show that one of your parents was in Britain for at least 4 years before your brother was born, there is a chance that ILR had been granted.

Your mother could make a Subject Access request:
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/navig ... onal-data/