If you are British and have a Non-EU spouse - GET ANGRY

[Russia]

If you are British, and are married to a Non-EU citizen, the following fact could very well enrage you…

A member of another EU country can come to work and live in Britain. Under current European law, s/he would be able to exercise their right under the Freedom of Movement Treaty, to have their spouse join them in the UK, regardless of that person's immigration status or nationality. So the bizarre effect of this is that couples get greater protection of their Article 8 rights in an EU country other than their own.

…Perhaps, even motivate you to take action to right this wrong?

There are hundreds, maybe even thousands of couples in a similar predicament, all of whom are discriminated against by the British Government’s mean-spirited stance on this issue of free-movement of Non-EU spouses of UK citizens.

The argument that such restrictions on Non-EU spouses are necessary for the protection of UK border integrity is simply without grounds, given that any other EU national, can bring his/her Non-EU spouse to the UK on a visit without undue formality. It seems the main fear of the UK authorities lies in the potential of ‘convenience marriages’ by asylum seekers, though this may well be a valid concern – this particular issue is quite far removed from the fact that many of us just simply want to visit the UK from time to time without barriers, real or imagined.

Ever made a visit visa application for your wife? Ever felt the dread of potential refusal? Ever balked at the invasive questioning and forms? Ever been left open jawed at the cost, and more recently, the procedure of obtaining a visit visa through an agency who hold your personal data without protection under the DPA?
Currently, it costs over one hundred pounds in visit visa fees and associated costs, to bring your wife of husband to the UK on a visit. It costs precisely NOTHING to take them to Schengen states.

At the moment the IND and to a very large extent the British Embassy have no interest in the rights of our Non-EU spouses. Perhaps a class-action in the European Court of Justice will prod them ‘to do the right thing?’ Something others and I are seriously considering, but without your support this injustice will continue.

Please, we would welcome all feedback - supportive, or otherwise!

For the record, I’ve no personal axe to grind on this matter; my wife and I have never experienced trouble-getting visas, and have always been treated with respect by the Embassy, EU and UK authorities – But what really rubs is the provocative stance by our own Government, treating our spouses as 2nd and often 3rd class citizens.

Visit http://www.gopetition.com/online/10357.html and show your solidarity.

[Wanderer]

Personally, I do think something needs to be in place to address the issue of international relationships.

It seems every man and his dog now has a foriegn gf/bf/husband/wife/civil partner and perhaps the majority of them fostered over internet. In a lot of cases by people who can't afford to finance an international relationship.

Also you do have to question the validity of any relationship where the protagonists have only spent days together face-to-face.

Just my opinion but I think there should be some system in place where if you can prove you've spent XX days together, internet chatting and phone calls don't count, there should be some sort of prospective partner visa, say three months, to see if you hack it together, no marriage pressure. I reckon 75% will end up with a broken relationship with the foriegn partner on their way home.

This brings me to my main point, I'm sure none of us want people coming to UK based on fragile relationships, resulting split up and another person lost in the system (sometimes!). So our wonderful gov has to have sth in place to block these dubious relationships based on MSN Messenger chats.

Sorry not really an answer, just a rant, and merely my humble opinion!

[Russia]

First, in a wider context, there are those issues involving cases such as indefinite leave of stay, settlement, right of abode etc. This area of UK immigration is subject to a great deal of restriction - and frankly, much of it is justified, given the numbers of economic migrants, bogus asylum seekers, etc. The fact that a substantial part of the legislation does not apply to other EU state citizens does clearly warrant concern and ought to be challenged - I agree.

However, the second issue, and one that for me is more significant - given I have a home, and family in Russia, and intend to remain settled here for life - is that simple travel rights (without undue formality, cost, etc) are not extended to my spouse. Put it this way, it is cheaper and easier to bring my house cat to England!

For example, it is possible for us to jump into the family car and drive through Ukraine, Hungary, Austria, Italy, and France to our winter home in Spain, freely without any declaration about our purpose of travel. Such a trip requires only a C class Schengen visa. At the border of Ukraine, EU and Russian citizens can transit, as is the same case with Hungary (also a non-Schengen state) to a state for which you hold a valid visa.

Now despite the fact that we have not avoided the need for a visa to travel through six countries – the actual process of obtaining that single visa is not difficult, nor does it require any disclosure or cost. However, if we want to extend our trip to include my homeland then this would involve considerably more planning, delays, costs, and disclosure. In addition to the fact that it is only possible to apply for a British visa in country of origin, the whole process proves to be woefully unfair and discriminatory.

How much more of this flagrant contempt for UK citizens, and their rights to travel as a family unit can we accept?

Regarding settlement - I would argue that all the subscribers to this site that aim to make the whole immigration policy fairer, consider that mistreatment of UK nationals is the thin end of the wedge, break the discrimination on this issue first, then the rest would follow - ie: serious consideration of wider issues of settlement that the action groups ‘Brides without Borders’ advocate. Unfortunately at this time theycloud the waters, (a group of women in the UK fighting to allow their foreign spouses, mostly asylum seekers, to remain on the basis of a UK marriage) – given the public opinion about foreigners – this wouldn’t help our cause for the application of the free-movement.

Furthermore,
Somebody I know ranted at Jack Straw when he was at the FO about this very issue & got no joy (except managing to swing Permanent Settlement in 2 weeks! Goes to show, rant at the right people and you can get results!). However, he privately admitted that the position is illegal under EU Law (the UK applied for derogation but were refused and now its covered by majority voting).

Rant away my friend, all feedback is good feedback as far as I am concerned.



http://www.gopetition.com/online/10357.html

[smalldog]

This is an issue I've already taken action on... by getting an Irish passport. Of course if I weren't eligible I'd be pretty angry about the current situation.

I think the petition would get more signatures (including mine) if it didn't include the false statement that non-EU spouses of non-British EU citizens don't require a visa to enter the UK. They do still require a visa, it's just easier and cheaper to get.

[Russia]

The UK has an open door policy for people that wish to abuse the system - its called EEA permits!!!

I think a British Citizen has a legitimate right to travel freely to his homeland with his wife in tow, without resorting to Surinder Singh et al routes.

The British expat community numbers millions, a fair percentage are married to Non-EU spouses - we cannot visit England without being subjected to the barriers mentioned in my initial post.

POP QUIZ.....

Which of the following couples is not entitled automatic entry into the UK?

1)British Married to Russian

2)Czech Married to Kazakhstan

3)French and German same-sex partners

[Russia]

smalldog,
thanks for the feedback.

Beg to differ your point. A family permit which is required to enter is NOT a visa. That family permit entitles the non-Eu spouse to live and work in the UK.
The EU citizen can obtain a residency card on presentation of a passport, the family permit is issued on the basis of EU spouse residency card. BTW all at NO cost.

[smalldog]

I know that the family permit is not technically a visa, but there are also EU rules that define a carrot as a fruit. People generally understand a visa to be a sticker in one's passport, issued by a country's embassy, that allows the holder entry into that country: a family permit fits this description exactly.

An EU citizen does not obtain a residence card "on presentation of a passport" -- it is obtained by application and the applicant must prove that he is exercising treaty rights.

[Russia]

I know that the family permit is not technically a visa, but there are also EU rules that define a carrot as a fruit. People generally understand a visa to be a sticker in one's passport, issued by a country's embassy, that allows the holder entry into that country: a family permit fits this description exactly.

An EU citizen does not obtain a residence card "on presentation of a passport" -- it is obtained by application and the applicant must prove that he is exercising treaty rights.

Smalldog, first you questioned the veracity of my statement, which you subsequently seemed to begrudgingly aknowledge only to then determine a family permit is practically the same as a visa - Not true...A EEA family permit WILL be issued (ie: will not be declined) at the British embassy in the EU country where the British citizen resides. A visa, which can be declined, despite an application being made by an immediate family member (wife/husband) HAS to be obtained from the country of spouse residence, AND at cost (detailed earlier in my post).
The Freedom of Movement treaty adopted earlier this year by member states, has in the spirit of the agreeement the recognition that country specific residence cards should not be necessary, though member states can continue to demand newcomers from other EU states apply if intending to stay more than 3 months. The grand plan is to truly extend the meaning of free-movement. The fact that SOME EU states require more than a passport is frankly irrelevant given that at most they can demand is copy of landlord agreement, proof of medical insurance, no criminal record and some means of income(all of which one would presumably have if living in a country other than their own!?!?

Are we not really detracting from the theme of my original post? I am happy to argue with you the finer points of the British Governments discrimination towards its own citizens, but rather prefer to save the intricacies of EU law interpretation to another thread.

And of all people, I would have thought you would be a supporter of our cause - given that you had to seek Irish residency to achieve the same basic rights I am trying to fight for - Only I am trying without sucumbing to legal loopholes and without leaving the country, family, house and job I have made my home just so I can take advantage of EEA family rights for myself and wife.

'If you want to run with the big dogs, you gotta learn to pee in the tall grass'....... sorry smalldog, couldnt resist the pun, hope you've good sense of humour - happy to remove in edit though. Cheers.

[ppron747]

My main quibble with your petition is that the wording on the website is not really adequate. It says

British Citizens who accompany their Non-EU spouses on visits to the UK are denied entry without valid visas.

which is simply not true, unless things have got more draconian very recently.
British citizens don't need visas to visit the UK. I think you're trying to say that non-EU spouses of British citizens need visas to visit the UK. But that's not what the quoted sentence says. Even if you turn it round to what I think you're intending to say, it still isn't completely accurate, in that it doesn't take account of the fact that only visa nationals need visas to visit the UK. Many non-EU nationals don't need visas to visit, although they do need them to settle in UK.

[Russia]

My main quibble with your petition is that the wording on the website is not really adequate. It says

British Citizens who accompany their Non-EU spouses on visits to the UK are denied entry without valid visas.

which is simply not true, unless things have got more draconian very recently.
British citizens don't need visas to visit the UK. I think you're trying to say that non-EU spouses of British citizens need visas to visit the UK. But that's not what the quoted sentence says. Even if you turn it round to what I think you're intending to say, it still isn't completely accurate, in that it doesn't take account of the fact that only visa nationals need visas to visit the UK. Many non-EU nationals don't need visas to visit, although they do need them to settle in UK.

Valid observation - I will respond.
But first does anyone actually agree in SPIRIT that our grievance is well founded?
This is an immigration board, right?! Forgive me, but I would have expected some balanced responses and perhaps a general if not wholehearted degree of support. I acknowledge guilt for perhaps relegating the ILR/Settlement issue as secondary after UK citizens rights and their spouses - perhaps guilty of poring scorn over the fact that EU citizens rights are greater than my own in my OWN country - but surely that's reasonable position given that I am a British Citizen?

Regarding the wording, I stand by the word order.

British Citizens who accompany their Non-EU spouses on visits to the UK are denied entry without valid visas.

In that I would not cross the border without my wife - de facto, I am denied entry if my wife does not have a visa.
Regarding Visa nationals, yes you are of course technically correct - though again I would say that in the SPIRIT its a reasonable statement given that even non-Visa nationals have to formalise their residency after 3 months residing if they want to work etc. OK so they can enter without visa, but they cannot stay without permit - here we join the loop again and come back to essentially the same point - there are barriers to entry, to freedom to move, live and work UNLESS you have a EU passport other than a UK one.

[alexweir1949]

dear all

I am a 57 year old scot. I married my present and second wife 1991 and apart from a split for 6 months 1996 we have been together continuously. We married in london and got her right to live and work in UK. But there was small print - we were out of UK more than 2 years, and because of that all her rights (and mine!) lapsed. Now I am advised by Ferguson Snell Immigration consultants that even getting her back into the country will be a major exercise. Although we do not wish to resettle here (we live in zimbabwe!), it would be nice to bring her to visit my family, do shopping, and if I do a work contract in UK then she could accompany me. Anytime I am working in any EU country we can get a visa with zero problem, usually instantly and with zero or minimal cost.

Out of interest, uk armed forces have many such problems; and also the present Danish Government changed the law such that many danes in my position live in sweden and commute to work in copenhagen (without their spouses)

Anyway - enough - my government wants to treat me as a second class citizen of some type - my rights to travel freely and my rights as a husband are both severely curtailed.

over and out
alex weir

[JAJ]

Now I am advised by Ferguson Snell Immigration consultants that even getting her back into the country will be a major exercise.

Why? Relatively few genuine spouse cases meet refusal. And if your wife had ILR before there is also the option of applying as a returning resident. See http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk

Out of interest, uk armed forces have many such problems;

Do they?

and also the present Danish Government changed the law such that many danes in my position live in sweden and commute to work in copenhagen (without their spouses)

Denmark has put some strict restrictions on spouse migration, but not banned it. It is true that EEA regulations can be used to bypass the Danish laws, as is also the case in the Netherlands.

In a few years it is likely that all this could become academic. The "gap" between increasingly strict domestic immigration laws in many EU/EEA nations and the relatively "open door" policies mandated by European judges and bureacrats, cannot last for ever.

This is but speculation however it seems that sooner or later something will have to give. And it's more likely to take the form of a few EU member states (including UK, Denmark and Netherlands) either insisting on changes to the European directive, or unilaterally rejecting the entire system.

[Russia]

Good to see others (especially seasoned and well informed individuals) engaging in this discussion - SHAME they are not staying on thread though!

Why? Relatively few genuine spouse cases meet refusal. And if your wife had ILR before there is also the option of applying as a returning resident. See http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk?

WHY SHOULD THIS MAN HAVE TO REAPPLY FOR ANYTHING???? He's a British Citizen, married many years and happens to live in a country other than his own and outside of the European Union.

Out of interest, uk armed forces have many such problems;

Do they?

Perhaps they don't have the same problem, the British Government has made one of many caveats, or perhaps better put, applied double-standards, that preclude certain groups of individuals from this discriminatory policy. If you're an advocate of the British Government's stance on retaining its opt out certain aspects of the Amsterdam Treaty, although, it claims, to continue working in the spirit of the legislation so long as it does not conflict with domestic immigration policy - consider this UK Government will make exceptions for many foriegn individuals - (read - Russian) ex-spies, ex-gangsters and ex-terrorists. Is it any wonder, millions in the UK, are disillusioned with the application of asylum policy? Support an ex-banker (Berezovsky) who stole literally billions of his countries wealth - Kick out Mahindra and her 2 month old daughter because she's not allowed to switch visa categories???
COME ON PEOPLE WAKEY, WAKEY.....
Again, we/I can drone on about how one country/instititution or another does or does not treat individuals equitably - But is it not fundementally true that British (and presumably Danish) citizen spouse's are discriminated against? And therefore their rights should be supported first and foremost over and above the rights of Non-British families.

JAJ, you proceed to discuss Denmark and EU etc...But I will have to go back to my first sentence of this post, about staying on thread - though pleased to discuss, there are an awful lot of British Expats in the world very concerned about this issue, and are not able to do as Smalldog and others have, ie taken advantage of the Surinder Singh route to free-movement.

Please people, do one of the following-

1) Support us! Even if so begrudgingly go to http://www.gopetition.com/online/10357.html
2) Disagree with us! And construct a decent agrument as to why you believe our demand is unfounded.
3) Educate yourself! And pick up a good book. I suggest 1984 George Orwell, or Animal Farm by same author to start, afterwards perhaps elevate to Gulag Archipelago (Solzhenitsyn) and if that grips your interest and you really want to discover more about how states deny individuals basic human rights, turn on your TV.

[JAJ]

WHY SHOULD THIS MAN HAVE TO REAPPLY FOR ANYTHING???? He's a British Citizen, married many years and happens to live in a country other than his own and outside of the European Union.

He doesn't have to apply for anything, as a British citizen. But his wife does need to obtain permission to settle in the United Kingdom. And this is almost universally granted.

I am not aware of a single developed country on earth which allows spouses of citizens an unrestricted right to settle in that country without applying for some kind of permission to do so.

[Russia]

JAJ with respect, this thread is about visiting rights plain and simple. How for some groups it's simple and for other's it's not. I fall into the 'it's not group' because a) my home is Russia, therefore not able to exercise treaty rights, b) my wife is a Russian citizen, therefore under that government assigned label 'visa-national' c) not willing to justify or even communicate a reason for visiting my homeland, as is my right and by extension my family's right. Nor am I willing to disclose financial data, contacts of people I know in UK etc, etc.

Granted, the thread denigrated into questions of settlement, how to circumvent existing law, why we should all lambast the EU etc.. But any chance turning it back from whence it came?

Now some of you 'voyeurs' that are reading but not contributing may well be wondering why I'm staying so patient - reason is simple- if I can discover some valid, coherent defence against this practice of discrimination by my own government, I may actually gain advantage when we put them in court. Make sense? Why blow a consortium fund of $***K on legal fees if we don't stand a cat in hells chance of getting justice? Savvy....!
So a message to the voyeurs - Got post your support on the petition site. For the detractors, go sharpen your argument, For you supporters - give us some messages of support, first thanks go to Alexweir1947...

[ppron747]

I'm really not keen on your constant implication that someone who doesn't share your point of view is either not clever enough or not well read enough. I'm not sure that it is a vote-winner.

I have serious reservations on the way in which immigration control is managed in the UK, but I don't have a problem with the principle of immigration control, as such. And I don't have an objection in principle to there being a list of countries whose citizens need visas to visit the UK. There may be some countries which shouldn't be on that list, and some that should be, but aren't. I don't know.

One thing I do know is that being married to a British citizen doesn't mean that a person ceases to be a citizen of his or her country of origin, and I cannot see why simply being married should exempt a person from the normal visa requirements that everyone else of his or her nationality has to abide by if they want to visit the UK.

I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem to me that having an Immigration Officer saying "Oh, you're married to British man, you must be alright" is the right way of doing things. I think it harks back to the days when AA patrolmen saluted their members.

Back in 1914, the British Nationality & Status of Aliens Act said "The wife of a British subject shall be deemed to be a British subject" and this may superficially be attractive. But the other side of the coin and, I think, inseparable from it is that the same Act also said "‘Disability’ shall mean the status of being an infant, lunatic, idiot, or married woman". In other words, if you want to be treated as a mere adjunct to your spouse, you can't choose when to switch from "adjunct" to "person" and back again, as the whim takes you.

[Russia]

aside from your goodself, I believe I have had to request every other poster to return to thread topic. One does not have to have read the classics to work this out... From the outset I welcomed opposing views, and in my last post I gave the reason..

I'll come back momentarliy with my reply to your other points, again thank you for your interest...

[Russia]

Sorry for delay, dinner time here in Russia +3 GMT

Immigration from the perspective of the individual is an emotive topic – emotions often spurn immediate action – action desired - sign petition.
However, I also have another agenda, which I divulged, namely to discover argument against relaxing the rule for spouses of British Subjects.
Truth be known, I am not naïve enough to believe that a petition alone is going to bring about a fundamental change in our governments policy, but I do believe that a certain percentage of people that do make a decision to sign may have actually done so, not from an emotive perspective, but because they have adjudged the government guilty in this aspect of basic family rights. Some of these people have in turn emailed me and asked how they can participate in bringing about change. I guess what I am saying; it’s the quality of the vote, not the quantity! This is not a popularity contest, this is a fight and I want winners on side – Re-read the reaction I have had from the posts, have any of them actually addressed my points? I use the situation of EU nationals and their Non-EU spouses as example of inconsistency in Government treatment not as sole justification for why people like me should be able to visit the UK with our spouses – the ultimate justification is that Man & Wife should not be forced apart by state – this is a sacrosanct right and Government has no right to interfere. (Reference the reading material, yes agree this was a little, well how shall I say, provocative? – but you will have noticed that the material relates to some of the horrors in store for us if the state subjugates the individual – how exactly is the denial of my wife’s entry to the UK without undue formality going to put at risk the masses? The British Government extends a welcome to those carrying a EU passport with their Non-EU spouse in tow why should my wife and I be any different.
You say, ahh.. this is because her country of origin is the No.1 factor and being married is only a secondary matter – whoa…excuse me I’m no theological expert but I am pretty sure my Church wedding (which preceded the legal ceremony) didn’t require me to denounce all responsibility to my wife should the state take exception to my choice of lifelong partner. Back to my earlier reply to you, de facto denied entrance…. Furthermore, again back to EU citizens – being married DOES exempt them from normal visa requirements (reference your quote 3rd para.).
An immigration officer does say, ‘oh, you’re married to a Frenchman, Mrs. Sengale that’s OK, you’re alright, come on in – oh and while you’re at it, sponge off our welfare state, get an education – oh, you’re low income, that’s OK, have some adult Ed free of charge, English language class is a good place to start, oh and don’t worry yourself about citizenship tests, YOU can stay as long as you want with your Frenchie husband – coz he’s not one of those distasteful 3rd country wallers.
Back in 1914……..come on I am not even going to go there – and why? BECAUSE WE DO NOT WANT TO SETTLE OR LIVE IN ENGLAND MY WIFE DOES NOT WANT A BRITISH PASSPORT….all we want to do is VISIT, see my ailing father, visit some pals and share a drink or two, before returning home to Mother Russia.

[Wanderer]

You should also remember folks like me, EU, NOT married to a non-EU partner and not wishing to marry....

We've struggled along on student visas, bona fide ones, in order to pursue an unmarried partner visa. Of course, even when (and if) we get this, it's Schengen time everytime we want to hop across the Channel. She doesn't want to be a British Citizen in particular, cos no doubt like ur misses, she's vehemently Russian.....

On the other hand if I was working in Germany or somewhere, or I used my Irish parentage, which I don't want to do cos I don't 'feel' Irish, it's less of a problem. Treaty rights.

Mind you, the Russian visa system is just as strange, registration etc, ur prolly on a business visa are u? I certainly have fun registering either dodgily or non-dogily...

Davai poka, no nikto ne uslishit' zdes'........

Steve

[Russia]

Reflective post time

Since reading ppron post and having ranted in my follow up post I’ve since been reflecting on why I allowed myself to get so combative, angry, and dismissive.

a) I did not explain my grievance in a simple easy to digest manner
b) I blamed others’ for misunderstanding my message
c) I introduced quite complex issues in too large a chunk
d) I had a hidden agenda
e) I made statements instead of asking questions
f) I chose the wrong audience

I am going to rethink my strategy for future campaigns. I do think that this past 24 hours on your forum has been worthwhile, and maybe I will come back with a more planned and constructive approach to championing what I sincerely believe is a worthwhile cause. It is rare to have a situation in immigration law that is so vulnerable to challenge.

Ppron you may not know it, but you have actually got me asking for answers too much bigger questions.

1. Nobody knows why some countries are ‘visa-national’, why-not?
2. Member countries compiled a list, why hasn’t the EU asked countries to justify entries on that list

To all you other respondents, you may not know it, but you too have got me asking equally important questions.

1. Some people in developed countries believe it’s easy to get a visa for a ‘genuine’ couple, why?
2. Some people believe an EEA permit is the same as a visa, fewer still know the difference, why?
3. Some people believe 3rd country nationals visit the UK solely because they want something from the host country, why?
4. Some people think a large proportion of foreign marriages are based on Internet relationships, why?
5. Some people want to destabilize the European Project, why?
6. Many people ‘dress’ opinion as fact, Am I one of them?

Hating people is like burning down your own home to get rid of a rat.
Harry Emerson Fosdick

Wanderer, thanks for coming in at the last, guess you were out wandering but as you can see, I've just posted my swansong on this site, cheers anyway for the support - you know were the petition is, and presumably were Bleachers is drink sometime.

[JAJ]

It is perhaps a shame if the original poster ("Russia") does not return has he has raised a number of very valid questions.

Firstly, the spouse of an EEA member state citizen does not have an unqualified right to enter the United Kingdom. British authorities do have to conduct a number of checks, notably to verify the identity and marital status of the applicant. And there is a right of refusal should the relationship be deemed a "marriage of convenience".

It is fair to say that the requirements for spousal entry under the Immigration Rules are more stringent, but set against this is the shorter time for permanent residence (2 years or immediate, vs five years).

It's appreciated that this thread is about rights of spouses to visit the United Kingdom, rather than live in the UK.

Other posts on this forum and others confirm that it's not necessarily a painless process for non-EEA family members to obtain visit visas/permits for other EEA states, even if there is no cost involved. Processing times can still be up to 6 months, documentation is required, and embassies often only issue single entry visas rather than multiple entry.

Suggesting that an EEA permit is not a "visa" may well be technically correct in terms of United Kingdom law. However such a permit looks like a visa and acts like a visa, so by any sensible definition of the term it is a visa.

There are two serious weaknesses in the system for entry of family members of EEA nationals:

- the fact that European law prescribes a specific set of "rights" rather than simply insisting that member states use "substantially equivalent" processes to those under domestic law; and

- applications under European law are "free" to the applicant. But of course there is a resouce involved in processing such cases, which needs to be met either by higher fees for "domestic" applications or funded out of general taxation. Partners of British citizens of course "benefit" from such "free" applicants in other EU/EEA states but again the process is not always painless. As the accounts from those who have navigated the Republic of Ireland immigration system (for example) can testify.

Obviously changing European law is easier said than done, but at the same time this law does rest upon the fundamental political consent of the member states.

[darksquid]

I've signed Russian's petition, although I as a non-EU spouse of a British national already settled in Britain, I am not directly affected by this unfairness.

However, I have been the victim of of this discrimination in other ways. I applied for a civil service post - at one of this country's National Archives, not the MI5, mind you. I was informed that my application was being put in the bin because I am a non-EU spouse of a British National, and do not hold British citizenship. HOWEVER (and how my blood boils to recall this), had I been the non-EU spouse of an EU national, I would have been eligible for the post! An American married to a born and bred Briton with permanent residency is not eligible for civil service posts, while a Venezualan married to a German fresh off the plane is free to apply!

How is this legal?

[JAJ]

However, I have been the victim of of this discrimination in other ways. I applied for a civil service post - at one of this country's National Archives, not the MI5, mind you. I was informed that my application was being put in the bin because I am a non-EU spouse of a British National, and do not hold British citizenship. HOWEVER (and how my blood boils to recall this), had I been the non-EU spouse of an EU national, I would have been eligible for the post! An American married to a born and bred Briton with permanent residency is not eligible for civil service posts, while a Venezualan married to a German fresh off the plane is free to apply!

Bear in mind that 25% of the Civil Service is barred to all but British citizens and certain other UK nationals.
http://www.civilservice.gov.uk/careers/ ... /index.asp

Also bear in mind that you wouldn't have a problem if you were a citizen of a Commonwealth country.

If you say you are a permanent resident then are you eligible for naturalisation as a British citizen?

[Russia]

Thank you for the support darksquid

We are receiving roughly one signature a day - encouraging given that a coordinated campaign to raise the issue to a mainstream audience is still at the planning stage. Thanks again.

It has been a challenge for me to keep the political dimension of this discriminatory practice out of the argument, but as others have rightly noted to me, the erosion of civil liberties has long been on government agenda. Consider, as surveillance society's go, Britian rates near the top of the list - Many want you to believe that if you've nothing to hide then you've nothing to fear from being closely monitored, videoed and recorded - let's not delude ourselves, this is a devastating argument...for the simple minded.

This board has many well-intentioned individuals offering practical advice and guidance - so if you're a British citizen married to a foreigner, and don't object to supplying the British government with 10 pages of personal information, a hefty fee which can, depending on the application amount to over 400euros, and you are prepared to be hugely inconvenienced by having to travel to your spouse's country of residence then stay there for as long as the application can take to process (which can be several months in some cases) - then maybe you are indeed docile and submissive enough to be led by the nose through some of the ill-contrived immigration laws of the United Kingdom.
For the rest of you, make your voice heard and let's get the immigration policy of this government back on track, currently there are several public consulations for a top down review of the whole system visit the Government websites and submit your views.

Apologises to those Non-British who visit the site seeking practical solutions to help navigate the UK immigration laws but this thread really only applies to a very narrow section of the immigrant population - However, should your family be split apart because of government immigration policy take some solace in the fact that at least the British government is consistent in its discrimination toward those that are not European (British included). And therein lies the final irony - Britain is a European state, but the British are NOT European citizens - and for some, that's exactly how they want it to remain.

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....and you are prepared to be hugely inconvenienced by having to travel to your spouse's country of residence then stay there for as long as the application can take to process (which can be several months in some cases) - then maybe you are indeed docile and submissive enough to be led by the nose through some of the ill-contrived immigration laws of the United Kingdom....

Patronise us if you will, but don't post untruths. It is not necessary for a British citizen to travel to his/her spouse's home country in order for a visa application to be made.