Singh for dual national

[MarthaJones]

My apologies in advance if this information has been covered before. I have used the search function and am just not sure I have a full level of understanding to make important decisions upon. I am providing our full details just in case any of them make a difference.

I am enquiring about Singh. I am also aware of the McCarthy decision as it relates to UKBA.

I am an American living in the US. I have always lived in the US and have no Irish lineage. I have European lineage but too far back to acquire any EU passport.

My husband is a dual national Irish/UK citizen by virtue of being born in Northern Ireland. He was born in 1963 and lived there until 2005, when he moved to the US to be with me. His parents and grandparents were born in Northern Ireland. My husband held an Irish passport for 10 years; he presently holds a British passport. He is from a border city in the North and always lived in a Unionist neighborhood.

We have been married since 2005 and have lived that entire time together in the US.

We seek to return to Northern Ireland. We do not qualify under the UK's present family visa path.

So......if my husband and I were to enter the Republic, he on his British passport, live and work there and apply to live in the UK under Singh, would this work? Could they deny based upon his dual nationality?

If there is no harm in doing this, do we have to be careful where we choose to live in the Republic? If we lived just across the border from his former home - would this be "bad"?

Thanks in advance for any opinions.

[vinny]

See also EUN2.16 Can family members of dual British / Irish nationals qualify for an EEA family permit?

The difficulty I think, is that he cannot exercise his treaty rights in Northern Ireland because he is a UK citizen. He cannot exercise his treaty rights in the Republic of Ireland because he is Irish.

Renouncing British citizenship may be an option, if he wishes to exercise treaty rights as an Irish citizen in the UK.

Alternatively, initially work in a third EEA country.

[MarthaJones]

Hello, Vinny. Thanks for answering my queries.

I have read through that link many times.

It seems to me the language restricts only those who haven't exercised their treaty rights. I don't get that if you do exercise them, that you will be barred simply because you are "dual".

Which in essence, I guess, is my question. Does the answer lie in how he enters the Republic? Or is it simply not possible?

Regarding renunciation.........do you think this is a valid path? There has been one report of success in these forums. And I have read a couple of legal opinions which suggest it........

[vinny]

Regarding renunciation.........do you think this is a valid path? There has been one report of success in these forums. And I have read a couple of legal opinions which suggest it........

A friend of a friend has just done exactly that. Just waiting for the outcome of his wife's EEA family permit application.

[MarthaJones]

Regarding renunciation.........do you think this is a valid path? There has been one report of success in these forums. And I have read a couple of legal opinions which suggest it........

A friend of a friend has just done exactly that. Just waiting for the outcome of his wife's EEA family permit application.

I hope you'll report back to us!

My husband already has a NI number and contributed to a state pension. I presume he cannot lose his pension if he renounces?

I also presume that if he renounces, he could bring me straight into the UK on his Irish passport without living somewhere else in the EU?

[Jambo]

I believe your plan should work as the Irish authorities are normally not checking if you are a dual national so he can be "only" British when in the Republic. The UK authorities are concerned about dual nationality but it should not be issue for a Singh application (as it is based on the British nationality).

[Obie]

The Irish do check if someone is a dual national, and in any event, they will know he is a British citizen too, by virtue of his place and time of birth.

I am of the view that there is no need for renounciation. If he went to ireland, then there is a link between two countries, and then the McCarthy argument falls away.

The UK designed an interpretation of McCarthy, for which there is no justification.

It will not be in accordance with McCarthy to refuse a dual national who has exercised his right of freemovement in another member state other than the one he/she wishes to assert their right. This is not what was stated in McCarthy.

The regulations dont define MvCarthy.

[Jambo]

The Irish do check if someone is a dual national, and in any event, they will know he is a British citizen too, by virtue of his place and time of birth.

I am of the view that there is no need for renounciation. If he went to ireland, then there is a link between two countries, and then the McCarthy argument falls away.

The UK designed an interpretation of McCarthy, for which there is no justification.

It will not be in accordance with McCarthy to refuse a dual national who has exercised his right of freemovement in another member state other than the one he/she wishes to assert their right. This is not what was stated in McCarthy.

The regulations dont define MvCarthy.

From what you say I understand that even if the Irish authorities check and are aware of the Irish nationality, they will allow the OP to make use of his other EEA nationality in Ireland as their interpretation of McCarthy is not as not narrow as the UK. If this is correct, the OP should be able to exercise treaty rights in Ireland as British and use Singh to move to the UK.

[Obie]

I am not suggesting the Irish has any interpretation at all. To be honest, the last time there was a change to Irish legislation was following the judgement in Metock.

However I am confident no court in the union given anxious scrutiny to McCarthy, would come to the same conclusion as the UK.

It is noteworthy that Mrs McCarthy did not lose because she was a dual national, but due to the fact she never exercised her right of freemovement.

[MarthaJones]

Hi Jambo and Obie. Thank you for joining in the discussion.

Obie, your assertions are in line with my understanding of why we would be able to use Singh, even though we would exercise it through my husband's "other country".

So, does it matter where in the Republic my husband would exercise his treaty rights? My husband has friends directly across the border in the Republic who would possibly allow us to rent a room from them. They could also help him find work in Ireland.

On the other hand, if my husband renounced his British citizenship, are there any real disadvantages for him in doing so? Socially, I don't think anyone in Northern Ireland would ever even know unless he told them......

With Singh we would have to move twice. With renunciation, only once - correct?

My rights are virtually the same under either path, correct?

FWIW, we are not leaning towards either path. We must make the "best" decision.

[Jambo]

I think renouncing the British citizenship just because of a narrow interpretation of McCarthy (which will probably get squashed by the court at some point) is a bit extreme. Yes, this will involve moving twice (it doesn't matter where you live in the Republic) but in your case, it sounds it would only be several miles so doesn't sound too bad.

Your rights in both routes are the same. The advantage of Singh is that the British national is not required to exercise treaty rights when he returns to the UK while the Irish route would require him to do so (So must be employed or have private medical insurance if not working). There is another advantage of keeping the British citizenship as it will allow you (if you wish) to apply for Britsh citizenship after 5 years (it's 6 years if he renounce).

[Obie]

For a Unionist to renounce their British Citizenship, is a huge step, considering it cannot be regained. It could have social implication in a place like Nothern Ireland.

Furthermore, i don't believe it is necessary.

It will be rather odd if Surinder Singh is not applicable to British national who hold other nationality. That will breach EU law on discrimination.

[dalebutt]

Obie I beg to differ with the statement that once one has given up British citizenship it cannot be regain, I think it is possible to do so, whether it'd be successful I don't know, but the regulations do allow for someone to apply to regain it after renunciation.

[Obie]

you are actually correct. I realised this after i had posted, but was too busy to retract, and then forgot about it.

I should have stated that it is not automatic. One can only resume citizenship at discretion. They will have to register again, which can only be done once.

[too old]

Why dont he use his british nationality route to come and live here with you in GB. renunciation will lead to a longer route i wont suggest him to give up on his british nationality , this is just a suggestion according to my intellectual level

[MarthaJones]

My apologies for not returning sooner. The first of the week is always very busy for me at work and I'm quite tired when I get home.

I'd like to thank everyone took time to write. It means a lot and is indeed helpful in plotting an exit strategy.

I believe I understand things more fully now. Thanks again so very much.

[rachellynn1972]

This op question has an easy answer. Op is willing to live in ireland, he will only have problem in uk because he has not exercise treaty right in anothe eu state BUT will have no problem living in ireland as an irish that has exercise treaty right in another eu state. Op is an irish and by virtual of working in the uk, he has exercise eu treaty right as an irish that has worked in anothe member state. Ireland and northern ireland are two different country under eu. If i were op, i will move to ireland with my usa partner, apply for a resident card with all the prove of work in the uk through hmrc , present it as evidence of work in another member state with my irish passport using sigh root. Dual citizen or not op cannot be compare to mccarthy, mccarthy never work, never move. But op have work and ready to move within two member state.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

My husband is a dual national Irish/UK citizen by virtue of being born in Northern Ireland. He was born in 1963 and lived there until 2005, when he moved to the US to be with me. His parents and grandparents were born in Northern Ireland. My husband held an Irish passport for 10 years; he presently holds a British passport. He is from a border city in the North and always lived in a Unionist neighborhood.

We have been married since 2005 and have lived that entire time together in the US.

We seek to return to Northern Ireland.

When did he hold and Irish passport, and why did he get it?
Did he ever live or work in RofI?
Would you be willing to live in RofI (especially since his home city is near the border in any case)?

[rachellynn1972]

My husband is a dual national Irish/UK citizen by virtue of being born in Northern Ireland. He was born in 1963 and lived there until 2005, when he moved to the US to be with me. His parents and grandparents were born in Northern Ireland. My husband held an Irish passport for 10 years; he presently holds a British passport. He is from a border city in the North and always lived in a Unionist neighborhood.

We have been married since 2005 and have lived that entire time together in the US.

We seek to return to Northern Ireland.

When did he hold and Irish passport, and why did he get it?
Did he ever live or work in RofI?
Would you be willing to live in RofI (especially since his home city is near the border in any case)?

A op was born an irish and british as well, many people uk are ignorant of nothern ireland. Op do not need a passport to prove he is a british or irish, his birth certificate prove it, he was born in northern ireland, so op can chose to either be an irish or british or both, he dont need a passport to prove it he only need it to travel and to get documents for a non eea family. Everyone should my old post advice regarding northern ireland, i say the fact i dont guess when it comes to this part of uk.

[MarthaJones]

My husband is a dual national Irish/UK citizen by virtue of being born in Northern Ireland. He was born in 1963 and lived there until 2005, when he moved to the US to be with me. His parents and grandparents were born in Northern Ireland. My husband held an Irish passport for 10 years; he presently holds a British passport. He is from a border city in the North and always lived in a Unionist neighborhood.

We have been married since 2005 and have lived that entire time together in the US.

We seek to return to Northern Ireland.

When did he hold and Irish passport, and why did he get it?
Did he ever live or work in RofI?
Would you be willing to live in RofI (especially since his home city is near the border in any case)?

I am sorry - I had not seen this question before. I hope we can continue the conversation.

He acquired the Irish passport in 1990. He had never had a passsport before. He needed a passport to apply for a J1 visa to the US. He was entering the US as part of a cross-cultural political experiment - the group was equally mixed Protestant and Catholic. The tour coordinators advised all the participants to travel on Irish passports in case there was an act of terrorism on the aircraft. It was felt British or American passengers were more likely to be executed than Irish!

My husband never traveled again after his 90 day stay in the US and his Irish passport expired. When he needed a new passport to travel to meet me, in 2005, he got a British passport because he could get it more quickly than an Irish.

Did my husband ever live or work in the Republic? No.

Would I be willing to move to RoI? We prefer to simply return to Northern Ireland because that is home, and because moving twice is expensive.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Did your husband ever work in the UK (including Northern Ireland) and use the Irish passport to prove that he had a right to work?

Amazing story on the reason to choose the Irish passport. Im sure that made for a first flight of one's life that was even more stressful than usual.

[el patron]

Directive/2004/38/EC
wrote -

when did he hold and Irish passport, and why did he get it?


Actually this is a very pertinent question....

[MarthaJones]

Did your husband ever work in the UK (including Northern Ireland) and use the Irish passport to prove that he had a right to work?

Amazing story on the reason to choose the Irish passport. Im sure that made for a first flight of one's life that was even more stressful than usual.

My husband never worked in the Republic.

He held several different jobs in the North.

He would have had to use the passport to prove he had a right to work in the US................

The Youth Exchange Bureau that organized the peace trip to the US was based in Dublin. My husband doesn't know if that was considered "working" for them. All the youth on the trip had jobs, in the US, through the exchange.

He still has the passport with the J1 visa in it.

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Sorry, you misunderstood. I was asking whether he ever worked in Northern Ireland or in the UK, and if so how he proved to him employer that he could work. Did he show his Irish passport?

[MarthaJones]

Sorry, you misunderstood. I was asking whether he ever worked in Northern Ireland or in the UK, and if so how he proved to him employer that he could work. Did he show his Irish passport?

It's been 23 years, so he can't exactly recall. He says he used to carry the passport with him and may have used it as an identity document (like for cashing checks, etc). I asked him if he may have shown it to the Job Centre and he can't remember. He doubts he ever used it for work as he already has a National Insurance number.

I put the information in my previous answer about the US because I did not know if using his Irish passport to prove work authorization to US authorities would be relevant.