Adult dependant Settlement Visa refused - Please advice

[jayzee]

Hi,

We have just been told that my Mother's application under Adult dependant Settlement Visa has been refused under the following grounds:

1. My mother had ticked the form that she has no medical conditions but not filled the appropriate sections

2. The refusal letter says that the sponsor (that is me) has not indicated whether my property has sufficient space for everyone

We are looking to appeal this decision. Basically point 2. is easy to clarify as I have a recent survey report of my property which indicates that we have more than adequate space. Point 1. is more tricky as although my mother does not have any diesease that needs state support, she does require her blood INR reading to be taken and maintained after a mitral valve replacement heart surgery which was done in 2007. When she visits me usually we get this test done privately. Back in India she does not have anyone to care for her even though she is able to do her everyday chores. She has been visiting me over the past 9 years almost every year under 6 month visitor visas. After the surgery I do not want her to be on her own with the risk that if the INR changes with little warning, there is no one to give urgent attention. But now with this refusal I am really confused as to what course of action to take. I also fear that this refusal will impact on getting any form of visa to visit me here so in effect she will never be able to come here even on visitor visa and I cannot even begin to comprehend that.

Can someone with please advice us on the options we have. We currently have about 20 days left to appeal.

[Amber]

Hi,

We have just been told that my Mother's application under Adult dependant Settlement Visa has been refused under the following grounds:

1. My mother had ticked the form that she has no medical conditions but not filled the appropriate sections

2. The refusal letter says that the sponsor (that is me) has not indicated whether my property has sufficient space for everyone

We are looking to appeal this decision. Basically point 2. is easy to clarify as I have a recent survey report of my property which indicates that we have more than adequate space. Point 1. is more tricky as although my mother does not have any diesease that needs state support, she does require her blood INR reading to be taken and maintained after a mitral valve replacement heart surgery which was done in 2007. When she visits me usually we get this test done privately. Back in India she does not have anyone to care for her even though she is able to do her everyday chores. She has been visiting me over the past 9 years almost every year under 6 month visitor visas. After the surgery I do not want her to be on her own with the risk that if the INR changes with little warning, there is no one to give urgent attention. But now with this refusal I am really confused as to what course of action to take. I also fear that this refusal will impact on getting any form of visa to visit me here so in effect she will never be able to come here even on visitor visa and I cannot even begin to comprehend that.

Can someone with please advice us on the options we have. We currently have about 20 days left to appeal.

I am afraid you must show that

You can apply to join a settled person in the UK if:
You need long-term personal care to perform every day tasks, such as washing and cooking.

The care you need is not available in the country where you are living, either because it is not available and there is no person in the country where you are living who can reasonably provide it or it is not affordable.

Your sponsor can show that he or she is able to provide adequate maintenance, accommodation and care for you without having to rely on public funds. Your sponsor will need to sign a sponsorship undertaking form to confirm that they will be responsible for your care without relying on public funds for a period of at least 5 years.

Did you not look into the rules prior to applying? You mentioned that your Mother has cardiac disease does she get out of breath? Just because she does not complain about her everyday chores does not mean she doesn't need help. If she suffers from breathlessness and you can get her cardiologist to back this up with a letter then you could apply. Providing that no-one else in her native country could offer the care. You would also have to sign a 5 year undertaking. If she does not require care then she will not meet the requirements.

[MPH80]

The real kicker in all of this though is that UKBA expect you to hire the help if you can afford it.

So the secondary challenge for you to know is that you have to be able to show why hiring the help is unaffordable but yet you can sign a 5 year undertaking not to claim public funds.

[Trickytok]

As far as i know, if you appeal and win over the refusal reasons given above. They should not use other reasons and give result based othese 2 reasons only! When did u apply and wen did u gt result?

[Trickytok]

Disclaimer: m nt a solicitor or anything.. This is jst wt i think u shud do... If i ws u i l appeal..

[kuruvi]

If it was under old rules (before 9th July 2012) I think you can win the appeal.

Would you mind posting your timeline, i.e. application date, biometric date and decision date.

We have been waiting since july.

[jayzee]

Thank you all for the valuable replies. I will answer the questions raised.

>> Did you not look into the rules prior to applying?
I have to admit, I feel now I did not properly look into the rules before applying. We have been successful in various visa applications in the past and took this one for granted and I let my Mother fill it in. Looking back I realise this mistake but I am now left totally helpless.

>> When did u apply and wen did u gt result?
My mother applied early this year.

>> Would you mind posting your timeline, i.e. application date, biometric date and decision date.

Application date: 04 Jan 13
Date of refusal : 02/04/13
Date sent to applicant : 04/04/13

Now even though it says date sent to applicant is 04/04/13, my Mother received notification of this visa refusal only on 22/05/13 so we have just 28 days to appeal so just over Three weeks.

The other major worry I have is that if this appeal were to fail, this would remain as a black mark on my Mother's immigration records so an application to an ordinary family visitor visa might even get rejected after all these years visiting me on visitor visa and not even once overstaying. This is something I cannot even begin to imagine as this means she will never be able to visit me in the UK. This is why I need to take correct action now.

I have tried to consult a few immigration law companies on the web and they all start to talk big money right from the start. I do realise it would cost me to get legal representation but the last thing I want is to be ripped off by someone at this dificult time.

Any and all feedback would be very much appreciated.

[Amber]

Thank you all for the valuable replies. I will answer the questions raised.

>> Did you not look into the rules prior to applying?
I have to admit, I feel now I did not properly look into the rules before applying. We have been successful in various visa applications in the past and took this one for granted and I let my Mother fill it in. Looking back I realise this mistake but I am now left totally helpless.

>> When did u apply and wen did u gt result?
My mother applied early this year.

>> Would you mind posting your timeline, i.e. application date, biometric date and decision date.

Application date: 04 Jan 13
Date of refusal : 02/04/13
Date sent to applicant : 04/04/13

Now even though it says date sent to applicant is 04/04/13, my Mother received notification of this visa refusal only on 22/05/13 so we have just 28 days to appeal so just over Three weeks.

The other major worry I have is that if this appeal were to fail, this would remain as a black mark on my Mother's immigration records so an application to an ordinary family visitor visa might even get rejected after all these years visiting me on visitor visa and not even once overstaying. This is something I cannot even begin to imagine as this means she will never be able to visit me in the UK. This is why I need to take correct action now.

I have tried to consult a few immigration law companies on the web and they all start to talk big money right from the start. I do realise it would cost me to get legal representation but the last thing I want is to be ripped off by someone at this dificult time.

Any and all feedback would be very much appreciated.

Again, does your mother have care needs, if not, on what grounds are you going to appeal?

[deleted_user]

Sorry to hear your case. You have unfortunately been caught by what I call the Grannies Unwelcome rule introduced 9th July 2012 .

[jayzee]

>> Again, does your mother have care needs, if not, on what grounds are you going to appeal?

Yes sorry I missed that question...

Basically my mother had to undergo a mitral valve surgery in 2007 and ever since she has been taking blood thinning medicine. What this means is that the tickness of blood needs to be monitored regularly.

In ordinary day to day life, the patient (in this case my mum) would appear to be completely normal but there is grave danger if the thickness were to increase or decrease beyond certain limits. Basically either she will suffer cardiac arrest of thickness is low or suffer internal bleading if it is high. The other problem is even though she takes medicine regularly in regular doses, everything from types of food taken to other medicine can affect the efficacy of the medicine meaning we have no control over thickness so need to monitor. She is currently on her own and we have no one to take responsibility should something happen that would need her to be hospitalised.

So although she does not appear to have any medical issues, there is a greater problem that is hard to put in words.

Let me know what you think.

[Amber]

>> Again, does your mother have care needs, if not, on what grounds are you going to appeal?

Yes sorry I missed that question...

Basically my mother had to undergo a mitral valve surgery in 2007 and ever since she has been taking blood thinning medicine. What this means is that the tickness of blood needs to be monitored regularly.

In ordinary day to day life, the patient (in this case my mum) would appear to be completely normal but there is grave danger if the thickness were to increase or decrease beyond certain limits. Basically either she will suffer cardiac arrest of thickness is low or suffer internal bleading if it is high. The other problem is even though she takes medicine regularly in regular doses, everything from types of food taken to other medicine can affect the efficacy of the medicine meaning we have no control over thickness so need to monitor. She is currently on her own and we have no one to take responsibility should something happen that would need her to be hospitalised.

So although she does not appear to have any medical issues, there is a greater problem that is hard to put in words.

Let me know what you think.

You could possibly argue that she needs supervision care and attentive care to make sure she takes her medication. Does she have arthritis or any other conditions?

[MPH80]

I, personally, do not think your mother qualifies based on the description you have given.

The test, laid down by UKBA, is explicit that the individual requires assistance to perform everyday tasks.

What you have described is that someone should be nearby "just in case".

Even IF you are able to prove that she does require everyday care - you'll still have to jump over that final hurdle of why it isn't affordable to hire someone, but yet you can afford to look after her without recourse to public funds.

I, personally, do not believe an appeal will succeed. I also, personally, believe that if any immigration lawyer says it will - they are probably going to cost you a lot.

I think your options are:

1) Follow the european route - move to another european country, exercise your treaty rights by working, prove she's your dependent, and bring her on a family permit. Then return to the UK. This will take around 6 months start to finish and requires you to move.

2) Return to your country. Being blunt - there may be a choice to be made here.

3) Try to follow a judicial review in an effort to prove the law is wrong. This is going to cost you. A lot. You're going to need very good legal help. And it's going to take a long time and there is absolutely no guarantee of success.

M.

[jayzee]

Okay I am feeling very down after hearing this and I realise you are probably right but I just cant take the bad news.

What about the issue of this refusal working against her for future applications of famility visitor visa?

She has been coming here on famility visitor visa almost every year since 2004 and have never overstayed. But now she has this black mark from the rejected visa. I cannot imagine what would happen if that too is rejected meaning I have no way to get her here even for short stays.

Let me know your thoughts ?

[deleted_user]

jayzee from what we know so far, anyone failing to qualify under the Grannies Unwelcome rule usually will no longer qualify for family visit visa afterwards because the LTR visas requires evidence that contradicts the evidence required by the family visit visa (that the visitor is NOT dependent on you and has close ties to their home country). Once unwelcome, always unwelcome .

Your case it depends on what evidence and level of dependence you have shown for you mom, since clearly they did not consider her dependent enough to offer her the visa.

Certainly the law needs a change.

If you are a British citizen, please get in touch with britcits.com and share your story.

[jayzee]

Okay it keeps getting worse...

>> Your case it depends on what evidence and level of dependence you have shown for you mom.

The application for LTR failed because we did not give any evidence or mention of dependence. Now in the appeal this is the missing information we were hoping to give.

Do you mean to say that we should drop the appeal and that will help future visitor visa applications ?

[vinny]

Out with the old.... > Adult dependent relatives

[deleted_user]

The application for LTR failed because we did not give any evidence or mention of dependence. Now in the appeal this is the missing information we were hoping to give.

I cannot tell you what to do. As per rules, the more dependence you show the less your chances of getting a visitor visa, which essentially requires you to return and a proof of "you will return" is that you are not dependent on your UK family and have plenty of things to do back home, instead of living with your family in the UK

This is one of the most twisted and evil pieces of legislation I have seen, and I cannot imagine the mind of the sadist who came up with these rules. When seen independently they appear "reasonable", but when you put them together... well. Theresa May terrorises me, I fear what will happen if she becomes the next PM.

[jayzee]

Okay thanks for the input so far.

Does anyone else have any more suggestions or tips here... I am totally lost as to what should be done next

Thanks

[MPH80]

None of us can say what to do for definite.

The application for LTR failed because we did not give any evidence or mention of dependence

Your original post described two failure points - 1 on accommodation and 1 on the medical grounds. That doesn't suggest they had a problem with the dependency on you.

It is often helpful to post the full text of the refusal here so that we see everything they had to say.

If they had a problem with the dependency and you can show strong ties to the home country it's POSSIBLE that they might grant a family visitor visa. But the application for a settlement visa (which she will have to declare) will make them look very closely.

The visitor visa rules affect all settlement visa applications - not just adult dependant (apply for a spouse visa and fail = unlikely to get family visitor). But the adult dependent rules are very harsh.

I want to say what I'd do - but I need to stress that this is based purely on your posts and I'm assuming the refusal reasons are as they were from the first post. I would drop the appeal - I can't see the grounds for it. I would consider the european route and failing that - I'd try for a family visitor visa and hope. The final thing I'd do is consider whether remaining in the UK or being close to my mother was more important - and I realise that is a very horrible choice to make. My wife has had to make it.

[jayzee]

Thanks again for the advice.

>> I would drop the appeal - I can't see the grounds for it

I understand your reasoning for this and I have just been talking to my Mother and feel this is probably the best option (least damage and risk) option we have. Of course this means we have to forget the £2000 odd hard earned money that went into the application but against the risk of being prevented from ever visiting UK, maybe it is the best way forward.

If ever there is a way to inform the home office that we totally mis-understood the intention of an adult ILR and its new criteria that would have been good but we dont have a way to communicate this with the home office. The idea is not to claim the money back but remove any wrong marks being left that affects future visitor visa applications.

Let me know if there are any further thoughts on any of this. Would also like to take this opportunity to thank all those who contributed - thank you all for your valuable input.


The rejection letter goes like this:

REFUSAL OF ENTRY CLEARANCE
The Decision
EC-DR.1.1(d) - Section E-ECP: Eligibility for entry clearance as an adult dependent relative

Relationship Requirements : Reason for Refusal:
* Your have stated in your visa application form that you do not have any medical conditions. Furthermore, you have failed to answer Q1.8 to Q1.17. I consider that you have not provided satisfactory details of evidence that you are unable to perform everyday personal care and tasks. Therefore I am not satisfied that you require, due to either age, illness or disability, long-term personal care to perform everyday tasks. I therefore refuse your application under paragraph ED-DR.1.1(d)

Financial Requirements : Reason for Refusal
* Your sponsor has not provided any details regarding the size of the accomodation and if it is adequate for you and his family to reside there. I am therefore not satisfied that there will be adequate accomodation without recource to public funds. I therefore refuse your application under paragraph ED-DR-1.1(d)

[ash12345]

Dear Jayzee,
I'm in similar situation like yours. My parents are in India and I'm looking to apply for elderly dependent visa. I would like to take advice from you in this regard. They do have 10 years visitors visa and I am worried if that would be cancelled if they apply for dependent visa which gets rejected...

You had a strong medical ground for your mother's heart condition. You could have said that the place where your mother lives, has not got enough facilities to measure INR to titrate Warfarin dosage. All you needed to show was one or more out of range INR reports (below 1.5 or above 4), which does frequently happen.
With a Mitral Valve surgery you could have also shown post-op complication of Mitral Regurgitation (causing shortness of breath), mild form of which happens most of the time after Mitral Valve surgery anyway.

[jayzee]

Apologies for the delay in replying...

Your point about the medical ground does seem logical but where my mother stays, there are clinics that do INR so I am not sure how that will go down.

It has been over 1 year since our application was made and realistically, I gave up all hope with the ILR when there were several replies here saying it will affect future visitor visas which will effectively make it impossible for her to visit me here.

In your case, I don't want to be too specific as each case is different but if I were you and my mother had a 10yr visitor visa, I would just stick to it for the time being. Currently, I would say we are experiencing the worst of UK visa legislation that I can recall and honestly cannot think it can get any worse than this for adult dependents.

We are going to apply for a one-time visitor visa again later this year and see how that goes. In our case, the damage is already done so the outcome of that application will give us an idea of how to proceed. If that gets rejected, I will have to make some serious objections, get the media involved etc. as it is simply unacceptable to live without caring for one's own parents - at least in the culture we come from.

At the end of the day, we lost nearly 2K for the whole thing, what the home office is doing is exploiting people like us who come to live here.

[MaskofMint]

I just got the same bitter response from Embassy in India for my 80 year old mother. What I would advice anyone when applying for any visa is to Google for "Refusal of such a visa" to learn more about the application failure reasons. In hindsight, it looks so obvious but when I was applying, I was only searching for how to apply.

Anyway, did you finally manage to get a visitor visa for your parent? Because I intend to follow that route. So any experience you can share will be of a great value.

[jayzee]

We have given up on the adult ILR application - just don't see how it can be done and don't want to then deal with the consequences of trying various loopholes and failing. I am going to try applying for a visitor visa next year (2015) for my mother and if that too fails due to the previous ILR application, I will probably go down to the Visa Office in London and kick a real fuss, get the media involved etc.

In my opinion the current Home Office minister simply pushed through this legislation to gain a few marks for herself - all of us educated people who left their birth countries to settle here have to put up with every rule they come up with here now. I have since stopped voting for the government and anybody even vaguely related or promoting this legislation. Longer term, I am having to revisit my plan of settling down here as I can anticipate a time when my mother will require looking after. I have also started giving advice to colleagues and friends who consider coming here to settle down - there are many other countries that value to contribution of immigrants and are more accepting to the needs of them.

So in short, I am afraid I do not have any solutions to share with you but that does not mean there aren't any - I just haven't found one that is guaranteed to work for me.

[WTM]

Dear Jayzee,
I know it's been a while.. but I was wondering about what happened to your mom. Our mom was rejected today and I'm trying to figure out if we should appeal or apply for a visitor visa as we have been doing for the last 6 years.

It really is an evil situation to be in. Sorry you and your family had to go through it. Hope you could advise us in any way possible.

=)