non-eu family members, do i really have equal rights?

anfarose · Post by **anfarose** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:05 pm

hello everyone!

Today I have been to the Spanish Consulate in Morocco to apply for a Shengen visa as to travel to Spain with my husband and our daughter.
I am moroccan and my husband is English and holds a British passport along with our 8 month old Daughter whom holds both British and Moroccan passport for visa free travel to Spain.

so we went to apply for visa for entry to Spain, from looking at information on the internet i was under the impression all we needed to prove was the link i had with a european family member been our British marriage certificate with apostille.

But according to the woman we spoke to at the consulate, we need proof of where we are going in Spain, as we are going to see my parents in law who are resident in Spain, she asked for their padron the paper of proof of their address there.

Also our British marriage certificate translated to Spanish. Another proof asked for was my husband's address in the UK (as he is still not yet resident in morocco).

So after a lot of upset been treated like a second class Citizen and not like an equal to my husband and daughter. It seems we are unlikely to even get to apply for a visa unless we give all poof asked for so do i REALLY have equal rights
So my questions are,

What documents do we need to apply for the Shengen visa as to travel with my husband and our Daughter from Morocco to Spain?

Do we need proof of the address we are going to in Spain?

Does my husband need to prove he is resident in the UK even if he was born there and holds a British passport?

thanks for any advice

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:15 pm

The only part that the Spanish can insist on is that the marriage certificate is in a language they can understand and that it is verified by the authorities as being genuine (this can be a pain in itself).

The other points raised are not relevant.

markowna · Post by **markowna** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:41 pm

I think the lady at the consulate was correct...
UK is not part of Schengen and this is the reason why you need all the proofs, just like a regular Maroocan.
Sorry to worry you but if UK was part of schengen (with free movements for non-EU spouses of EU citizens) it would be much easier...
So in a way you are not a spouse of european citizen but UK citizen

Post by **vinny** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:59 pm

Not quite.

Although the UK is not part of the Schengen countries, it's still part of the European Union. Directive 2004/38/EC is applicable to spouses of British citizens travelling to Spain.

anfarose · Post by **anfarose** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:08 pm

Thanks for your replies.
I understand that UK isn't part of Schengen, but then why my husband and daughter don't need a visa to go to Spain as i do?
UK is still member of the EU and i think the directive 2004/38/EC gives the right to citizens of the Union and their family members
to move and reside freely within the territory of the Member States...
Please, correct me if I'm wrong but i think that's how it's supposed to be...

we are in fact going to see my parents in law so i guess i need from them to send me some documents that prove that they are resident in spain and they will receive us for our holidays.

anfarose · Post by **anfarose** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:14 pm

Thanks Vinny, i just realised that you confirmed my point while i was writing the post... so do i need to provide all sorts of proofs as if i was applying for a simple touristic visa ?
i thought the EU-family member free visa would save all the administrative hassle.

Post by **vinny** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:37 pm

See Directive 2004/38/EC.

Unless you have a residence card as specified in (8), then Article 5(2), subject to 5(4), is applicable.

You don't have to answer all the questions (*) on the Schengen visa form.

anfarose · Post by **anfarose** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 1:54 pm

yes i have been reading all and that's what i thought, that i'm not supposed to give proofs of means and place of residence during my stay in spain (according to what was written in the visa form and marked with a *)... but that woman in the consulate insists about giving all that proofs otherwise i won't be able to apply for a visa, and if we do, it could be refused... so i'm confused, as it will take a while before we can get the documents from my parents in law, and i guess we could miss our trip.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Tue Jul 23, 2013 8:56 pm

Do you know if the person in the consulate is a simple administrator or someone in authority? It is not uncommon for there to be persons unfamiliar with the regulations.

The EU publish guidance for consulate officials that can clarify matters if you are still having trouble.

anfarose · Post by **anfarose** » Wed Jul 24, 2013 12:09 am

I don't know exactly what's her position in the consulate... as soon as i arrived to the consulate, the security made me in touch with a moroccan middleman to whom i explained my request and then he made me wait half an hour before i could see anyone spanish with more informations on my case...
my husband told me the same as what you mentioned about the documents needed and he advices me to apply for the visa anyway as i'm not supposed to provide more documents than what proves that i'm a family member of an EU citizen... but i'm a bit afraid that it could be rejected if i don't give them all they asked for... i know my rights, but do they know my rights and are they willing to respect them ?

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:44 am

Where is your husband located? Will you be travelling together?

anfarose · Post by **anfarose** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:30 am

My husband arrived last month and is spending time with me now in Morocco then he will be travelling to Spain with us if i get the visa.
I've had many schengen visas in the past and always respected the limitations, but the first time as an non eu family member and directly through the Spanish consulate here.

I plan to go back to the consulate tomorrow morning and submit my papers, marriage certificate with translation to Spanish. Our passports and copies of my father in laws padron and residencia for proof of the address we go to visit. I just hope this is enough documents to go with the Schengen form i've filled in to be accepted. Thats if they allow me to make the application of course

I'll let you know the outcome after the visit

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:15 am

anfarose wrote:My husband arrived last month and is spending time with me now in Morocco then he will be travelling to Spain with us if i get the visa.
I've had many schengen visas in the past and always respected the limitations, but the first time as an non eu family member and directly through the Spanish consulate here.

I plan to go back to the consulate tomorrow morning and submit my papers, marriage certificate with translation to Spanish. Our passports and copies of my father in laws padron and residencia for proof of the address we go to visit. I just hope this is enough documents to go with the Schengen form i've filled in to be accepted. Thats if they allow me to make the application of course :roll:

You are not required to provide proof of address. They can ask you, but they can not refuse the visa on that basis.

Be very patient with them, but be very clear with them that you know the law and will get the European Commission involved if they do not comply with the law.

Be sure to right down the name of everyone you talk with. And have them write down anything they are insisting on.

Just curious: Is there not a ferry to Spain from Morocco?

anfarose · Post by **anfarose** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 6:29 pm

Firstly to mention, yes there is a ferry from Tangier and Nador to the south of Spain. But plan to fly as it's only an hour so it will be easier on our baby for travelling.

After a long wait of over 2 hours at the Spanish consulate we eventually got to see a lady inside but not the same one as on our first visit. This woman seemed to understand more our situation and told us some of the papers were not necessary to apply for the visa. She gave my husband a paper to sign in Spanish to say he will be accompanying me during the trip in Spain. After this we were given an appointment for tomorrow morning at another address for interview. So after leaving the consulate we took a drive to find the building to be in time and noticed that it was a company dealing with visas called vfs global, so we checked internet and found their website http://www.vfsglobal.com/spain/morocco/index.html

Does anyone know anything or had experience with this company?

Looking at the website i noticed they have service fees on top of the visa application fees, so does this mean my free visa will in the end cost money to apply for and still no garantee of been granted?

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 9:09 pm

Yes, embassies around the world are increasingly using these service providers. Effectively, they provide a screening service and weed out applications that would not be accepted for administrative reasons. In many cases, applicants have no choice but to use them.

In the case of non-EU family members, beneficiaries of directive 2004/38, applying for Schengen visas, can apply directly at the consulate.

anfarose · Post by **anfarose** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:26 pm

Thank you for reply about the visa application centers. Even if in my case from what you say i can apply directly at the consulate, i feel it would be a step back in this seemingly long road to get my visa. I'm thinking it could be worth the 20+ euros to have this agency put through my application form to the consulate, i just hope they are effective and know the eu law better than i have experienced so far. After all the consular staff here have about the same idea as markowna wrote earlier on schengen area and british citizens

I'm also worried i ticked the wrong box in section 21 in the schengen form, i choose visit family but now i wonder if i should have tick touristic. Do you think this will make any difference?

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:32 pm

I do not understand. You went to them embassy and submitted your application, and now they are sending you to VFS? Why? Have you had to pay a fee to anyone?

anfarose · Post by **anfarose** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:22 pm

Sorry i didn't make it so clear earlier, i went to the Spanish consulate today with the intention and hope of submitting my application today. But they sent us away with a piece of paper titled.. VISADO ESTANCIA FAMILIAR COMUNITARIO (R.D. 240/2007).. My husband had to write his name and passport number, also saying he will travel with me and put the address we are staying. My husband had to sign it, then the consulate stamped the paper to take with us for an interview tomorrow with the VFS.
We hope in the morning we are able to put in the application for Schengen visa, but looking at the VFS website i think all those applying through them need to pay extra on top of the visa fees for their services.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:29 pm

anfarose wrote:Sorry i didn't make it so clear earlier, i went to the Spanish consulate today with the intention and hope of submitting my application today. But they sent us away with a piece of paper titled.. VISADO ESTANCIA FAMILIAR COMUNITARIO (R.D. 240/2007).. My husband had to write his name and passport number, also saying he will travel with me and put the address we are staying. My husband had to sign it, then the consulate stamped the paper to take with us for an interview tomorrow with the VFS.
We hope in the morning we are able to put in the application for Schengen visa, but looking at the VFS website i think all those applying through them need to pay extra on top of the visa fees for their services.

So they refused to accept you application at the Spanish consulate, even though you were talking with them at the time?

Good news is they seem to recognize that it should be an EU free movement decision.

anfarose · Post by **anfarose** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:03 am

They didn't refuse to accept the application, but whilst waiting over 2 hours and hearing the man at the door telling people all visa applications are dealt with at the other building now, also that they would be moving because the building was unsafe. We assumed it was the new consulate where we would have the appointment tomorrow, so we said nothing and were happier to get some type of recognition from them. Not until we looked at the building we realized it was VFS global working for the Spanish and Belgium consulates.

Yes it does seem like good news to know one lady had half a clue in the whole consulate about the eu and our rights, even if they kept us waiting over 2 hours till they maybe had to google them.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:58 am

You should not have to pay anything. Be sure you are crystal clear with each person you talk with that you are the family member of an EU citizen. If they make you pay, ask them to confirm that with the embassy and get the name of the embassy, because you will be making a formal complaint to the European Commission.

anfarose · Post by **anfarose** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:54 pm

Hi to everyone, thanks for taking an interest in my post and responses given.
Just to update you on the progress so far, yesterday i finally managed to apply for my touristic visa to Spain and wait the out come from VFS global.
My husband and i went to VFS yesterday morning as told by the Spanish consulate, only to be told they did not know anything about us coming and wouldn't let us in. So we took the drive back to the consulate to tell them this, eventually 10 minutes later the man came back out to see us and told us to go back to VFS they know we are coming for the interview now.
We go back to VFS and tell them the consulate sent us back and they should know we are coming, they checked their emails and still no word from the consulate. After ten minutes waiting VFS decide to let us in to start the process of applying for visa, only near the end of interview they told me they now had recieved word by email we were coming.
The application process for visa was quick only taking about 30 minutes and all the employees at VFS were very polite and apologized for making us wait and come back and said the Spanish had many administrative problems lately.
As we thought i had to pay the service fee to VFS, i mentioned i shouldn't have to pay anything for visa. They replied the visa is free and everyone making an application must pay including europeans and their family. So i paid the 23 euro fee to VFS just to finally get my application submitted for the visa. Now we just wait to hear from VFS to if i get the visa or not, then hopefully we get started planning our trip. But the way things have been going with the Spanish consulate i'm expecting a delay or rejection for some obscure reason.

Post by **EUsmileWEallsmile** » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:44 pm

The fee can be charged if you chose to use VFS. However, it does not appear to be the case that you were given a choice. Concentrate on getting the visa first, but once obtained, consider complaining.

This is all in the embassy's handbook.

anfarose · Post by **anfarose** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:38 pm

as expected we got a call this morning from the spanish consulate with another delay. They said that they need a document of actualisation of our marriage certificate, to prove we are still married and not had a divorce. I also tried to argue if we were no longer together why do we have an 8 month old baby with British passport and does she not give me the right to travel to europe ? but they didn't want to know anything about this point, all they want is the actualisation of our marriage certificate.

so what is this actualisation and how to get it? can the british embassy in morocco help us in any way?

i wonder how long it will take before we can get such paper sent to morocco by post, i start to think about cancelling our trip.

Post by **vinny** » Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:22 pm

Are they dreaming things up as they please?

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