Shambles in a Tribunal

[kofi75]

I went for my hearing on a refusal on our Zambrano refusal and my wife and I entered the court room for the judge and the HOPO openly admitting that they had no clue what the Zambrano regulation was about.The hopo was confusing zambrano with chen and started arguing that we do not fall within the zambrano because the child was not an EEA national(complete disaster).The judge seem to agree with her.Then i knew i had a huge task to explain to them the CJEU ruling on Zambrano and direct them to Article 20TFEU.Then the judge seem to get a picture of the case.He then admitted it wont be fair on our part to make a decision on something he has no knowledge about so had to adjourn the case for an hour so he could have time do some research about the whole case.We came back in an hours time and he got more confused an was still insisting Zambrano applied to EEA child. I now have to give him some case laws and he promised us that he was going home to read through all the articles and the caselaws i have directed him and luckily enough i had the ukba caseworkers manual on Zambrano and gave it to him.The hopo was only arguing on chen He apologised for his low knowledge on the case and said the bundle was handed to him the morning of the hearing.He promised he ll be fair and make sure he reads through my witness statement and every note before he makes a decision.What a disgrace to the British justice system!!!

[wiggsy]

1) Even the BBC couldn't think these jokes up...

2) thanks for sharing this... (at least I know now the game we will have getting the point across... - I imagine it will be harder then explaining it to Social Services ETC)

3) Hope you've made your complaint already?

4) if you fail (fingers crossed you dont), it's clearly basis for your appeal - the judge cannot make a decision on something he clearly (and admittedly) knows nothing about...

5) Have you got the judges name... etc, for future reference?

6) No article 8... however obvious error of law:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/42/contents
3(1)
and 6(1) "It is unlawful for a public authority to act in a way which is incompatible with a Convention right."

and then 7(1) "A person who claims that a public authority has acted (or proposes to act) in a way which is made unlawful by section 6(1) may— .
(a)bring proceedings against the authority under this Act in the appropriate court or tribunal, or .
(b)rely on the Convention right or rights concerned in any legal proceedings, .
but only if he is (or would be) a victim of the unlawful act. "

The refusal notice clearly says you MUST go home, and if not it will be ENFORCED.

[dalebutt]

What a disgrace to the British justice system!!!

I wouldn't say a disgrace to the justice system, given that the judge admitted he has no knowledge of Zambrano and decided to adjourn to study the case before passing judgement, you should be thankful instead that he didn't decide your fate without proper prior knowledge of Zambrano.

If he had pass judgement yesterday without proper consideration would be a disgrace. Good luck with your decision.

[Obie]

Zambrano is a novel and complex area of law. Even the most experience of lawyers have issues with it. Judges deals with many areas of law. Immigration law is getting increasingly complex.

It is your duty to have printed the relevant legislative provisions, and the necessary authorities.

It is good he made you aware of his lack of understanding, so you could direct him appropriately.

[sarahassy]

Zambrano is a novel and complex area of law. Even the most experience of lawyers have issues with it. Judges deals with many areas of law. Immigration law is getting increasingly complex.

It is your duty to have printed the relevant legislative provisions, and the necessary authorities.

It is good he made you aware of his lack of understanding, so you could direct him appropriately.

Thanks Kofi for sharing, atleast we know where we are heading. I am 100% sure my solicitor don't know all these case laws as in my appeal he just write abt the best interest of the child which I think is article 8.Hope every thing goes well. Please don't for get to help us with that useful knowledge abt ZAMBRANO which is a gate way to our leave to remain.

[kiss300]

kofi75 thanks so much. you have pave the way for some of us through you education and teaching the judge maybe a new thing which he has no idea of. i pray you seal through

[wiggsy]

Zambrano is a novel and complex area of law. Even the most experience of lawyers have issues with it. Judges deals with many areas of law. Immigration law is getting increasingly complex.

It is your duty to have printed the relevant legislative provisions, and the necessary authorities.

It is good he made you aware of his lack of understanding, so you could direct him appropriately.

In our appeal letter, it was actually written all the case law, etc, and sent a list of relevant case laws etc (actual bundle was about 1000 pages, and consited of FOI replys from the home office explaining the concept of Zambrano, the actual laws, etc (The Home Office documents actually make it clear the concept etc, so I think the HO PO will have a tough time arguing with the Home Office's official position on the matter...

I think we need to buy some more paper and get a van to get to the court for my wifes appeal, just to be sure we dont miss anything

@Obie - What is the stance of Laptops in court? I know some magistrates confiscate mobiles etc... Are there laws to prevent opening and use of a laptop for reference etc.

[sarahassy]

Zambrano is a novel and complex area of law. Even the most experience of lawyers have issues with it. Judges deals with many areas of law. Immigration law is getting increasingly complex.

It is your duty to have printed the relevant legislative provisions, and the necessary authorities.

It is good he made you aware of his lack of understanding, so you could direct him appropriately.

In our appeal letter, it was actually written all the case law, etc, and sent a list of relevant case laws etc (actual bundle was about 1000 pages, and consited of FOI replys from the home office explaining the concept of Zambrano, the actual laws, etc (The Home Office documents actually make it clear the concept etc, so I think the HO PO will have a tough time arguing with the Home Office's official position on the matter...

I think we need to buy some more paper and get a van to get to the court for my wifes appeal, just to be sure we dont miss anything

@Obie - What is the stance of Laptops in court? I know some magistrates confiscate mobiles etc... Are there laws to prevent opening and use of a laptop for reference etc.

forward some case laws to Kofi to save his time and also widen our chances to win the appeal plse

[sarahassy]

I went for my hearing on a refusal on our Zambrano refusal and my wife and I entered the court room for the judge and the HOPO openly admitting that they had no clue what the Zambrano regulation was about.The hopo was confusing zambrano with chen and started arguing that we do not fall within the zambrano because the child was not an EEA national(complete disaster).The judge seem to agree with her.Then i knew i had a huge task to explain to them the CJEU ruling on Zambrano and direct them to Article 20TFEU.Then the judge seem to get a picture of the case.He then admitted it wont be fair on our part to make a decision on something he has no knowledge about so had to adjourn the case for an hour so he could have time do some research about the whole case.We came back in an hours time and he got more confused an was still insisting Zambrano applied to EEA child. I now have to give him some case laws and he promised us that he was going home to read through all the articles and the caselaws i have directed him and luckily enough i had the ukba caseworkers manual on Zambrano and gave it to him.The hopo was only arguing on chen He apologised for his low knowledge on the case and said the bundle was handed to him the morning of the hearing.He promised he ll be fair and make sure he reads through my witness statement and every note before he makes a decision.What a disgrace to the British justice system!!!

Kofi check your PM inbox plse.

[wiggsy]

forward some case laws to Kofi to save his time and also widen our chances to win the appeal plse

A lot of the case laws I sent are relating to Singh (In hopes) However, all of the FOI requests I've filed are on:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/user/wayne_pearsall

lots of laws etc on the welfare of children, child protection issues (i cant remember whos kid's dad did a runner, but the fact that they did it - surely this opens up a whole can of Child Protecton worries / concerns where you couldn't possibly expect somebody to care for kids in such circumstances).

I've got lots of plagerised material i've included in the letters etc

Seriously though, all of the relevant information is already on the forums. (and has mostly been directed to me by a member of this forum...)

i downloaded all the foi requests ive made. and even if they refused to respond (IE: how can you show dependancy); I then read through them all, and highlighted sections of the documents... anything I can use later on...

I've got to go through them a second time... for our bundle for court (hopefully I dont miss anything )

but there is so much information, (on the internet etc) that if we take it all, we gonna need a van...


I also plan to use information that doesn't appear to directly relate to the case... IE: Criminality Guidelines... as this outlines the importance of not splitting up familes etc... (why do FNP's appear to have more rights then a British Child)
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ing-396605

then the fact that it is clear that the home office are aware of a culture that does not follow legislation:
Policy Notice 11/2012:

Durable Partners
9. Due to the wording of regulation 26(3) a right of appeal can only be
restricted if a person claims to be a ‘family member’ or ‘relative’ of an
EEA national. This does not include durable partners applying as
extended family members of EEA nationals as they do not meet either
of these definitions. This means that durable partners will have a right
of appeal in all EEA decisions even where no evidence of relationship
or identity has been provided. Further detail can be found in policy
notice 08/11. It is important that caseworkers do not illegitimately
restrict appeal rights in such cases on the basis of any practice within
casework teams. (emphasis added)

( WDTK's Robert SimpsonFile list: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/278 ... PNlist.htm )


And then you can view my emails to rob whiteman etc here:

[honeybay1]

@kofi why dont you employ a standard lawyer to fight your case for you.i will rather spend my overdraft to sort out my status than stressing myself again.i know its hard to get the money,but trust me,it worth it.all this 3 year gone,if you had have your status sorted out,u will be working and earning money for your family by now.i wish you best of luck.
my close friend use lawyer to argue his own case last year after going to prison for fraud, he won instantly even the judge does not know anything about zambrano by then.the lawyer explain and support it with law documents and the judge grant him his visa on the spot.

[kiss300]

but kofi if i may ask didnt you go with a lawyer? this cases are a bit sensitive and a lawyer could have been really handy

[wiggsy]

but kofi if i may ask didnt you go with a lawyer? this cases are a bit sensitive and a lawyer could have been really handy

lawyers are expensive though...

[evie233]

@kofi why dont you employ a standard lawyer to fight your case for you.i will rather spend my overdraft to sort out my status than stressing myself again.i know its hard to get the money,but trust me,it worth it.all this 3 year gone,if you had have your status sorted out,u will be working and earning money for your family by now.i wish you best of luck.
my close friend use lawyer to argue his own case last year after going to prison for fraud, he won instantly even the judge does not know anything about zambrano by then.the lawyer explain and support it with law documents and the judge grant him his visa on the spot.

Some lawyers don't even know much about zambrano, some haven't even heard of it. I remember when I took my case to my lawyer, he didn't even know much about it, and kept telling me to go for article 8, but when he saw I was adamant, he went online, printed the forms, did his research and was ready. So even Kofi is using a lawyer, he still needs to back him up.