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90 Day Holiday Visa - Short-Term Fix?

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hughjars99
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90 Day Holiday Visa - Short-Term Fix?

Post by hughjars99 » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:42 pm

Hi all, I was wondering if one or some of you can help? My girlfriend is American, and I am English, living and working in London. My girlfriend and I are looking to live together in London, but don't really know how to start the process off. Because of this fact, it seems a slow process (as I am sure it will be once we do know what we need to do).

So my question is this. How viable, and indeed legal is it for her to keep coming over here to stay on a 90 day holiday visa with me in my home, then leave the UK to go back to the States for a week and then return on another 90 holiday visa?

Is it being completely naive to think that this is a short-term way around the distance that separates us and also a way to get around not being able to be with each other while we figure out which permanent visa to apply for?

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Re: 90 Day Holiday Visa - Short-Term Fix?

Post by Wanderer » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:59 pm

hughjars99 wrote:Hi all, I was wondering if one or some of you can help? My girlfriend is American, and I am English, living and working in London. My girlfriend and I are looking to live together in London, but don't really know how to start the process off. Because of this fact, it seems a slow process (as I am sure it will be once we do know what we need to do).

So my question is this. How viable, and indeed legal is it for her to keep coming over here to stay on a 90 day holiday visa with me in my home, then leave the UK to go back to the States for a week and then return on another 90 holiday visa?

Is it being completely naive to think that this is a short-term way around the distance that separates us and also a way to get around not being able to be with each other while we figure out which permanent visa to apply for?
I can speak from direct experience here. My mate is a Brit, married a US girl in the US, got his GC etc.

They come over to UK regularly, every few months to visit etc and everytime she is questioned by the immigration control boys who clearly think she's effectively living here.

She's not of course!

Sth to be mindful of. Manchester Airport btw, I usually pick them up!

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Post by hughjars99 » Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:53 pm

So its not something that is illegal then? I mean, I am in a position to provide flights for my girlfriend to keep leaving the country on or just before her 90 day holiday period ends. Is there a minimum amount of time that she has to leave the UK for before she's allowed back in?

Also, her and I are not married, although it is something that we are very keen to do. Marriage, as far I am aware, helps in the process of visa application, so if we were to marry here or in the States, does that then mean this flitting from UK to the US can stop?

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Post by Christophe » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:20 pm

Actually, US citizens are normally admitted for 6 months at the point of entry (no pre-clearance visa is needed). However, you need to be very careful: repeated entries, especially for prolonged periods of time, are liable to rouse the suspicions of the passport control officers quite quickly. Essentially, entry as a short-term visitor is just that: if she is suspected of 'living' in the UK using visitor stays then alarm bells will start to ring, as it were.

If your long-term aim is that she might really live here, then the path you are proposing is probably not a wise one, in my view.

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Post by Wanderer » Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:21 pm

hughjars99 wrote:So its not something that is illegal then? I mean, I am in a position to provide flights for my girlfriend to keep leaving the country on or just before her 90 day holiday period ends. Is there a minimum amount of time that she has to leave the UK for before she's allowed back in?

Also, her and I are not married, although it is something that we are very keen to do. Marriage, as far I am aware, helps in the process of visa application, so if we were to marry here or in the States, does that then mean this flitting from UK to the US can stop?
Well if the immigration control boys suspect her of living here on a visa (or waivered visa in US case) they might refuse her entry which would be a black mark against her immigration record.

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Post by darksquid » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:03 pm

It is my understanding that, in general, a person must not spend more than 90 days in any 12 month period in the UK as a visitor. As others have mentioned, any more than this will appear as intent to settle...and the likelyhood of being denied entry is very high indeed.

This means that after a 90 day visit, your GF should not attempt to re-enter the UK as a visitor for another 6 months. People can and do visit more often than this, but it is a game of chance, and I have known many people who have been sent back with a black mark on their passport after attempting exactly what you propose.

Welcome to the wonderful world of international relationships. I spent a grand total of 4 months with my now-husband before we decided we had to get married or end it. It's not nice to feel rushed into it, but immigration policy isn't designed to make it easy.

Good luck, because it's not an easy road to go down!
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Post by Christophe » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:28 am

darksquid wrote:It is my understanding that, in general, a person must not spend more than 90 days in any 12 month period in the UK as a visitor. As others have mentioned, any more than this will appear as intent to settle...and the likelyhood of being denied entry is very high indeed.
US citizens (and many others) are routinely given leave to enter the UK for 6 months as visitors, not 90 days. But the main thrust of what you say should certainly be taken on board by the original poster.

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Post by darksquid » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:22 am

Christophe wrote:
darksquid wrote:It is my understanding that, in general, a person must not spend more than 90 days in any 12 month period in the UK as a visitor. As others have mentioned, any more than this will appear as intent to settle...and the likelyhood of being denied entry is very high indeed.
US citizens (and many others) are routinely given leave to enter the UK for 6 months as visitors, not 90 days. But the main thrust of what you say should certainly be taken on board by the original poster.
Ah, well spotted...I did, in fact, mean 6 months....in my jetlag-addled brain last night, 90 days = 6 months! :shock: That being said, visitors ARE sometimes given less less than 6 months upon entry to the UK. I am sure I was given a three month stamp at some point.

6 months in any 12 month period is what you are allowed as a visitor.
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Post by hughjars99 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:30 am

Thanks a lot for all your comments.

So just to clarify, so that I have this right. I can get my girlfriend over here for a 6 month continuous period on no specific kind of visa, just a visitors permit (for want of a better term) and then she would have to return to the States at the end of this time. She's then not allowed to return to the UK for another 6 months in a comparable fashion without applying for a work-permit visa, fiancee visa or other such similar scenario.

If this is all correct, while she's here can we apply for her to remain for longer or would any such application have to be done when this 6 months has finished and shes flown back to the States?

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Post by Wanderer » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:43 am

hughjars99 wrote:If this is all correct, while she's here can we apply for her to remain for longer or would any such application have to be done when this 6 months has finished and shes flown back to the States?
She'd have to return home to switch visas, I don't think you can switch to anything from a visitors visa.

Remember a visitors visa is just that, for visiting, it's not any form of residence permit.

In my opinion too it's not wise to spend the full six months allowed on the visa-waiver. If her Majesty's spot it they could start to ask questions like who 'visits' for six months at a time and how do they fund themselves. How do they get six months off work? Immigration being immigration they will assume working illegally.

This sort of happened to my gf, admittedly a visa-national when she spent three months in the UK on a six month visa, they next one was very nearly denied because the ECO's reckon she should have returned after the visit was over......

I wouldn't risk it mate, the clampdowns on immigration are everywhere now and the last thing you want is a black mark on HO computer against her.

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Post by hughjars99 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:14 pm

Yeah, about this black mark on the Home Office computer you mention.

A little caveat about my story is that early on in our relationship, my girlfriend tried to come over here to see me just for a weeks holiday. Money circumstances only permitted her to buy a one-way ticket and I was going to buy her return flight when she got here. It was also a brand new passport she was flying on and she'd (at the time) never been out of the States before. So she was rightly flagged up as suspect and detained for interview. But what she said in the interview was that me and her had known each other longer than we actually had and that we had met 6 months before in the States. When immigration phoned me to verify her story and say I was going to be her sponsor for while she was here (which I knew about) I couldn't say that I had known her as long as she had because of the tracking they wanted to do through my passport details.

When our 'stories' didnt quite match in the terms of how long we had known each other, she wasn't granted entry to the country and was flown back to the States on the grounds she tried to enter under deception.

I understand why she was flagged up and detained, and I know what she originally said about the length of time we had known each other was the wrong thing to do, but she said to me that she was just incredibly scared with the situation she was in and that she worried noone would believe that I would be her sponsor over here (even if just for a week) given that we'd actually known each other just 6 weeks (not the 6 months she had said).

So now I am wondering. Will she be flagged as a suspicious traveller every time she comes to see me? Does she have this 'black mark' against her with the Home Office and if so will it hinder any plans to have her come here for a few months and ultimately hinder her application to come here on a permanent basis as my fiancee and wife?

Is there anyone that I can talk to, within the Home Office or Immigration service that can verify what her specific case is and the chances of her not being granted access to the UK for the short term and then, going forward, in the future?

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Post by darksquid » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:40 pm

I think she will indeed have this 'black mark' against her, and will most probably not be allowed to re-enter the UK as a visitor without obtaining entry clearance first..

She will need to apply for a visitor visa before travelling to the UK. As someone who has been previously denied entry, she will need to go above and beyond the norm to prove she will return to the US. Here is the page with the relevent information. :

http://www.britainusa.com/visas/article ... 00&a=41122
Visit for vacation/business
As a visitor to the UK, you must be able to show that:

you are genuinely seeking entry as a visitor for up to six months
you intend to leave the UK at the end of your visit
you do not intend to take employment in the UK
you have enough money to support and accommodate yourself without recourse to public funds or taking employment
you can meet the cost of a return or onward journey.
ADVICE FOR APPLICANTS

It is your responsibility to satisfy the Entry Clearance Officer that you meet all the criteria of the category under which you are applying. Therefore, it is in your interest to ensure that you are fully prepared before submitting an application. An Entry Clearance officer will base their decision to issue or refuse on the documents you submit.

PLEASE NOTE THAT THE APPLICATION PROCESSING FEE IS NON-REFUNDABLE IRRESPECTIVE OF THE OUTCOME OF YOUR APPLICATION.

Documentary Requirements

1) Online application (Please note New York only accepts online applications).

2) Passport (note: It should be the original document and have ample validity)

3) One passport size photograph - no scans (Click here for example)

4) Evidence of your Immigration Status in the USA and permission to re-enter the USA after your trip (not necessary for US citizens). Please submit original documents. Examples include:-

-Permanent Resident Card
-Valid US visa (e.g, H1B, F1)
-Advance Parole Document
-Employment Authorisation Card (does not permit re-entry to US)
-Valid DS 2019 (Formerly IAP66)
-Valid I-20 (must be signed on the reverse by designated school official)
-Valid I-94

4) Confirmed Flight Reservation (You may reserve flights but do not purchase the ticket before the Visa is issued).


5) Employment Letter / Confirmation of Employment.

For Vacation: to include length of service and vacation dates.
For Business: giving full details of proposed business visit and stating employer will be financially responsible.
Self-employed: letter of incorporation/business registration document or 1040 tax return.
Please note we cannot accept TALX / "The Work Number" subscriber references.

6) Evidence of funds: e.g, Recent bank statement (within last 30 days), travellers cheques. (Credit card statements are not acceptable).

7) If you are visiting family or friends you will need:

a letter from your sponsor (the person you are visiting) explaining your relationship with them and the purpose of your visit.
If your sponsor will be supporting you during your visit, or paying for the cost of the visit, you will need: payslips, bank statements, or some other evidence to show that they have enough money to support you
With a visit visa you can usually enter and leave the UK any number of times while it is still valid. You cannot stay for longer than six months on each visit. Visit visas can be valid for 6 months, one year, two years or five years. You can apply for a visa valid for any of these periods. The Entry Clearance Officer may decide to make your visa valid for a shorter time than you have asked for, for example if are not a regular traveller or have never visited the UK before.
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Post by darksquid » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:44 pm

oh btw...

She will be able to apply for a fiancee/spouse visa, and it should be granted, despite her previous denied entry, provided she meets all the requirements for that visa. A denied entry may mean the visa takes a few more days to process, as they will need to check the records of the airport where she was denied...but I have known quite a few people in exactly the same situation later successfully apply for a fiancee/spouse visa.

In fact, fiancee/spouse visas seem alot easier to get than visitor visas, as a requirement is that the applicant actually intends to settle - as a visitor you must prove that you DON'T intend to settle!
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Post by hughjars99 » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:58 pm

Darksquid, your help in this is greatly appreciated.

I'd better tell the old "ball and chain" that shes got some work to do before she gets her arse over here to be with me.

Thanks again all.

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Post by darksquid » Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:28 pm

hughjars99 wrote:Darksquid, your help in this is greatly appreciated.

I'd better tell the old "ball and chain" that shes got some work to do before she gets her arse over here to be with me.

Thanks again all.
no problem :)

Loads of us have been in just your situation, and have managed to survive! You're doing the right thing by getting your research done now. Good luck!
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Post by hughjars99 » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:46 am

Just a quick question on this though. She said to me last night that shes got some time off work over Easter, and wants to fly over here for a long weekend (from Thursday 5th April to Monday 9th April). With what happened the last time she tried to gain entry into the country do you think that she will have any problems this time around?

Obviously she will have a return ticket before she leaves the States, and I've told her to get a letter from her job stating she has employment to go back to once she leaves the UK. Her passport is also not quite as brand spanking new as it was before, although it still hasnt been used to leave the US or enter another country.

Before I start throwing £700 for a flight for her to come for that weekend, is there anything else that I should get for her, from my side to help in her transition from the States to here for that long weekend, or is there anyone I can talk to to iron out any potential pitfalls before I purchase her ticket. Does she need to do anything before she boards the plane to make sure that when she lands at Heathrow in a fortnights time shes actually allowed into the arrivals lounge and not dumped on a plane going home a couple of hours later.

Thanks for any advice...

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Post by Wanderer » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:49 am

hughjars99 wrote:Just a quick question on this though. She said to me last night that shes got some time off work over Easter, and wants to fly over here for a long weekend (from Thursday 5th April to Monday 9th April). With what happened the last time she tried to gain entry into the country do you think that she will have any problems this time around?

Obviously she will have a return ticket before she leaves the States, and I've told her to get a letter from her job stating she has employment to go back to once she leaves the UK. Her passport is also not quite as brand spanking new as it was before, although it still hasnt been used to leave the US or enter another country.

Before I start throwing £700 for a flight for her to come for that weekend, is there anything else that I should get for her, from my side to help in her transition from the States to here for that long weekend, or is there anyone I can talk to to iron out any potential pitfalls before I purchase her ticket. Does she need to do anything before she boards the plane to make sure that when she lands at Heathrow in a fortnights time shes actually allowed into the arrivals lounge and not dumped on a plane going home a couple of hours later.

Thanks for any advice...
As advised above, she'll need to formally apply for a Visitors Visa and the nearest British Embassy to her in USA.

As she's been refused entry before she will have been disqualified from automatic entry to UK via the visa-waiver programme.

Has her previous refusal been marked in her passport? I reckon it must have. In which case there's not even a chance of 'slipping through' which i wouldn't advise anyway.

U need to make sure her next entry is 100% squeaky clean, two refusals would make even a spouse visa a total nightmare.

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Post by darksquid » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:54 pm

Seconding what Wanderer said...she needs a visa to travel to the UK from now on. Applying by post to the British Embassy in New York can take well over a week...and her previous refusal is likely to add to the processing time. It is quiteunlikely that a visa will be issued in time for her to visit over the Easter holiday. even if she was to get her application together and submitted today.

You will notice on the page I posted earlier, that as her sponser, you will be required to submit bank statements and payslips in support of her application. This will mean ORIGINALS or certified copies.

The good news is that she can apply for a multiple entry visa that will be valid for up to 5 years...so this isn't something she will have to do every time she visits. Or you could always make it easy on yourselves and fly over to marry her, and she can return with you with a spouse visa!
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Post by hughjars99 » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:35 pm

Thanks to everyone that has posted here with advice, its greatly appreciated.

And without running the risk of sounding like a broken record, your advice and help has thrown up a few more questions.

I've talked with my girlfriend, and she's more than happy to get married to help with any visa application that we will proceed with. Its been a shame that its taken some of the romance out of proposing, but needs must in a long distance relationship I guess.

So what I am asking is what do you all think is the best bet to get this thing moving? Would you suggest marriage here in the UK, getting her over here on a fiancee visa first? Or perhaps that I fly there, to Florida and marry her there? In any case, is there a stipulation with the amount of time one or either of us has to have as a resident of the area to actually qualify for a marriage license?

Perhaps thats not something that can be answered on an immigration site, but if there are any tidbits of information that any of you can tell me to point me the in right direction, then as ever, it will be greatly received.

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Post by Wanderer » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:42 pm

Some random thoughts:

Most places have a period u must reside in the locality for before marriage I think. but not the US and A, certainly not Las Vegas, turn up and sign ur life away.....

For UK fiancee visa you must have met (so many haven't!).

Don't marry for the sake of a visa....

International relationships cost a lot in time, money and frustration. Be prepared for a nasty shock to the wallet, 500 quid for fiancee/spouse visa, 750 quid a pop for FLR and then for ILR, u need a lot of cash for this, a lot of patience and resist the urge to try and shortcut the system.

Keep all documentation, phone call records etc, they way UK gov is at the mo on immigration, they suspect everyone of having dubious relationship.

That's all for now!

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Post by hughjars99 » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:25 pm

....certainly not Las Vegas, turn up and sign ur life away.....
You old romantic, you...!

Marriage is something that we have talked about for a while now, we both know that we were supposed to be together. We just wished we had been nationals of the same bloody country.

A quickie marriage ceremony isnt a problem for either of us, we'd have a bigger affair later on, when we were settled in one country, in one place and then could get both our families together too.

Anyway, i digress...

She's not coming here for Easter, but I am going there instead. I've looked into getting hitched in Florida and there is no required residency period for me. Once I am there, we can apply for the license and get married easily within the 7 days that I am there for. Its quick, cheap and cheerful, but once its done, as far as I can gather, she'll be allowed to return with me to the UK for a two year period initially and then she can apply for permanent residency if we are still married and tend to remain so.

But she cant just buy a one-way ticket straight away and fly back to the UK at the end of my trip next month, can she?

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Post by darksquid » Fri Mar 23, 2007 1:07 pm

She will need to apply for a spouse visa once you two are married. These typically take just a week or so, but her previous refusal will probably add a bit of time to that (shouldn't be much, though). So I would advise against her buying a ticket until she has passport with visa in hand. One she has the spouse visa, a one-way ticket is just fine (although, strangely, two-way tickets are often cheaper!). Here is the advice page for spouse visas:

http://www.britainusa.com/visas/article ... 00&a=41033
To qualify for admission as a spouse, you must show that;

The sponsor is present and settled in the United Kingdom, or is to be admitted for settlement at the same time as the applicant arrives in the UK;
The parties to the marriage have met;
The marriage is subsisting and each of the parties intend to live permanently with the other as his/her spouse;
There will be adequate accommodation for the parties and any dependents without recourse to public funds in accommodation which they own or occupy exclusively;
The parties will be able to maintain themselves and any dependents adequately without recourse to public funds
Entry clearance when issued is usually valid for 2 years and good for multiple entry. Applications should therefore be submitted only when you have specific plans to settle in the United Kingdom with your spouse.

ADVICE FOR APPLICANTS

It is your responsibility to satisfy the Entry Clearance Officer that you meet all the criteria of the category under which you are applying. Therefore, it is in your interest to ensure that you are fully prepared before submitting an application. An Entry Clearance officer will base their decision to issue or refuse on the documents you submit.

PLEASE NOTE THAT THE APPLICATION PROCESSING FEE IS NON-REFUNDABLE IRRESPECTIVE OF THE OUTCOME OF YOUR APPLICATION.

Documentary Requirements

1) Online application

2) Passport (note: It should be the original document and have ample validity)

3) One passport size photograph (Click here for example)

4) Spouses Passport

If your spouse is a British citizen by birth but does not hold a British passport then a full (long form) British birth certificate giving parents’ names will suffice. A British Visitor’s Passport is not sufficient.

If your spouse is entitled to right of abode in the United Kingdom but travels on a non-British passport, that passport containing the Certificate or stamp of the Right of Abode must be produced.

If your spouse is a foreign national with indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom, produce that passport.

If your spouse holds a British citizen passport, produce that passport.


5) Marriage certificate

This must be a civil marriage certificate issued by the registrar of marriage of the town or city where the marriage took place and bearing the appropriate seal of office.

A Civil marriage certificate issued by the relevant authorities of another country is acceptable, if accompanied by an official translation.


6) Termination of previous marriage

(i) divorce papers showing the date the divorce became final;
(ii) death certificate.


7) Letter Of Support

If you and your spouse do not attend this office in person we will require a letter stating that they are aware and support your application to settle with them in the United Kingdom, and that it is their intention that you will live permanently together as each other’s spouse.


8) Evidence Of Accommodation in the UK

This may come in various forms:


a) Lease or tenancy agreement for private rented property

b) Tenancy agreement with the local authority housing department

c) Mortgage papers for privately owned property

d) Title deeds (OR letter from the organization holding the deeds).


If you plan to stay temporarily with relatives or friends we require a letter from them giving their consent to this arrangement. In addition evidence in the form of (a), (b), (c) or (d) that they have suitable temporary accommodation available for you and your dependants.

NOTE: Under the Rules you must demonstrate that you have the intention and ability to acquire adequate accommodation of your own or which you occupy yourselves (i.e. a separate unit of accommodation. One room in a shared property may not be acceptable other than on a strictly temporary basis).


9) Financial Support

Evidence that you and your spouse can support yourselves and your dependants without recourse to public funds may include one or a combination of the following documents according to your circumstances.

a) Letter from your spouse’s employer in the United Kingdom stating the position in the company, length of service, annual salary and whether the position is permanent.

b) Offers of employment for either/both parties including details of salary.

c) Recent statements of bank and saving accounts showing sufficient means of support while employment is sought in the United Kingdom or for indefinite support if no employment is planned.

d) Educational or vocational certificates and C.V. to demonstrate qualification for potential employment in the area in which you plan to live.

e) References from previous employers.

f) Enquiries made regarding employment in the United Kingdom.

g) Plans for self-employment in the United Kingdom.
My husband and I were in exactly the same boat as you are. We knew we wanted to be together, and we had vaguely discussed marriage. However, unlike us, you actually seem to be quite open to the idea of doing it now! We were absolutely furious at being made to feel we 'had' to get married after spending only 4 months physically together (of a total of three years knowing eachother). But it was either that or not be together.

I don't regret it for one second. And later today, I will become British! :D

I say good on ya for taking the risk - LIFE is a risk, and it's better than being overcome with regret later on for the things you didn't do. Good luck!
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