Re-entering Schengen

camorra11 · Post by **camorra11** » Mon May 07, 2007 7:55 pm

Hello all,

I am an American citizen who recently returned from France after spending exactly 90 days there, from February 1 to May 1. I had originally intended to go back to France after spending two or three weeks at home, but I have learned about this Schengen law stating that I have only 90 days in a period of 180 days allowed on my US passport, ie tourist visa.

I called the French embassy and discussed with them if I was applicable for any visa to return to France, but I found that I was not.

I really want to return to France for another three months. I am thinking I could fly into Geneva, which is not part of Schengen, and then cross the border by car, which my French friends tell me is rarely manned. Then I would leave through Geneva three months later.

I know this is illegal and I am no looking for trouble, but I want to return to France! My purpose is tourism and seeing friends, not working or earning money.

Does anyone think this is a big risk? Or is it unlikely I will be caught? If I am caught, what are the consequences (from an official government website if you have them!)

By the way, my passport was stamped (maybe scanned?) at Frankfurt airport on Feb.1 and also stamped and scanned at Lyon airport on May 1.

Thank you so much for your help.

Fairtrade · Post by **Fairtrade** » Tue May 08, 2007 5:19 pm

Hi Camorra11

Being an American citizen with an American passport you don't need to apply for a visa for any Schengen country for up to 3 months (90 days) within a 6 months period. That means you can stay in any schengen country, like France for 3 months and can only enter any schengen countries again after another 3 months when that 6 month period is over.

Therefore it is not advisable to come to Europe for more than 3 months without a visa thinking you will be able to quickly cross into a non EU schengen country like Switzerland for a day or two and then will be allowed back into the schengen countries for another 3 months visa free. Your passport will get scanned, they will pick it up if you over stay without applying for a visa.

I suggest if you want to stay longer in France than your 3 months get a simple work visa like teaching english in france or if you have family in France they can sponsor you for a visa.

Also if you do attempt to fly to Switzerland and you get caught trying to sneak into France from Switzerland or even trying to get back into Switzerland from France, you will be treated like a person that overstayed their visa and this will probably affect your future chances of being allowed back into the schengen zone countries.

So the best advise would be to try and get a visa or wait 3 months in a non schengen country like the Uk or Ireland and ask your friends from France to come and visit you(very easy these days with eurostar) before being allowed back in again for another 3 months visa free.

Hope this helps.

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Tue May 08, 2007 8:39 pm

Based on the facts you should not return to france for 3 months
However the thing is that they really don't know if you were there the whole 3 months.
You could have gone to an Eastern European country not in the Eu
Unfortunately without a stamp you can't prove it

For the most part, the french generally don't bother americans so if its that important to you, then do what you will and let the cards fall where they may.
Look at the stamps in your passport, what story does it say and if you are comfortable with it and can sell your version at the border, then its up to you whether you want to return under these conditions

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu May 10, 2007 10:24 am

I agree with SYH. There are so many times when border officials do not stamp your passport when entering or leaving the Schengen space that one cannot conclude when looking at an entry and exit stamp in a passport that the person was necessarily in the Schengen space for the entire period between the dates on those two stamps.

The reality is that it is almost impossible for France to prove that you spent the whole 90 days in France or the Schengen space for that matter.

For all they know your journey could have been like this:

1 Feb - Enter France

5 Feb - Leave France/Enter Switzerland (They do not stamp your passport at the Swiss border)

25 April - Leave Switzerland / Enter France (They do not stamp your passport at the Swiss border)

1 May - Leave France

This is just an example, but you can see how it is possible for your passport to show that you spent 90 days in France without this being the reality at all.

SYH · Post by **SYH** » Thu May 10, 2007 11:07 am

Dawie agrees with me???
*Bats Eyelashes*

camorra11 · Post by **camorra11** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:21 pm

Hey all,

Thanks for your responses.

The stamps in my passport say entering at Frankfurt airport on Feb. 1 and leaving through Lyon airport on May 1.

It's true that they can't prove anything, but I've read that the burden is actually on me to prove that I haven't been in the Schengen space. But then again, if I can't prove it and it's all in the air, is that enough justification to ban someone for 5 years? I'd like to see it happen...

Well, I plan to go back and will cross the border by car with a French friend of mine. Hopefully we can find some small mountain road where there is no one there as border control...

Do you know of any crossing points like that?

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Thu May 10, 2007 9:27 pm

All land border crossings into France are unmanned by border guards or immigration officials (except very occasionally between France and Switzerland). You can thank the Schengen agreement for that.

Docterror · Post by **Docterror** » Fri May 11, 2007 9:44 am

Does this mean that for anyone with a UK residence visa for more than 6 months willing to risk it, can go to the Schengen territiory without getting going through the hassle of a Schengen visa if he goes through Switzerland and then cross through the land borders to the neighbouring countries? Doesn't seem to be so big a risk to me.. or am I not factoring in something?

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Fri May 11, 2007 9:50 am

Docterror wrote:Does this mean that for anyone with a UK residence visa for more than 6 months willing to risk it, can go to the Schengen territiory without getting going through the hassle of a Schengen visa if he goes through Switzerland and then cross through the land borders to the neighbouring countries? Doesn't seem to be so big a risk to me.. or am I not factoring in something?

That's correct. I know a few people who have done that. I wouldn't recommend it though. If you get caught in a random stop by police in France without a Schengen visa (and your nationality requires one) you will find yourself in a lot of trouble.

Docterror · Post by **Docterror** » Fri May 11, 2007 10:46 am

Not that I would recommend it either..and thanks for that info.

Fairtrade · Post by **Fairtrade** » Fri May 11, 2007 5:43 pm

Comorra11 "Well, I plan to go back and will cross the border by car with a French friend of mine. Hopefully we can find some small mountain road where there is no one there as border control...

Do you know of any crossing points like that?"

It is not advisable giving people advise on how to cross back into europe knowingly they might be in breach of the schengen visa terms

mashu · Post by **mashu** » Fri May 11, 2007 8:00 pm

i'm non-european national,what if i have temporary residence card ( for 2 years) in one of the Shengen country, can i travel with this card all over then shengen countries without visa?

Fairtrade · Post by **Fairtrade** » Fri May 11, 2007 8:22 pm

Hi Mashu

Yes, a valid residence card issued by one of the Schengen countries is a substitute to a Schengen visa, however this must be presented to the authorities, in case of a control, together with a valid passport. The residence card on its own is not a valid travel document for third country nationals although it would be for EU nationals.

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Fri May 11, 2007 8:32 pm

Fairtrade wrote:Comorra11 "Well, I plan to go back and will cross the border by car with a French friend of mine. Hopefully we can find some small mountain road where there is no one there as border control...

Do you know of any crossing points like that?"

It is not advisable giving people advise on how to cross back into europe knowingly they might be in breach of the schengen visa terms

What people choose to do with information is completely and utterly their responsibility. But that information is out there and publicly available for anyone to look up. We aren't revealing any state secrets here.

mashu · Post by **mashu** » Fri May 11, 2007 8:40 pm

Thank you for your reply.
I just want to know, if i got this temporary residence card from shengen country can i also work in shengen countries? do i have any rights to work there ,if i got permission for work from shengen country where my card was issued?

Fairtrade · Post by **Fairtrade** » Fri May 11, 2007 9:08 pm

Hi

A residence card and/or work permit, is only valid in the country of issue. In the EU a permit from a member country gives you the right of unrestricted travel through the community, but no right to reside or work in any other than the issuing country.

toptip · Post by **toptip** » Thu May 24, 2007 9:44 am

hello all,
i need some impartial advice. i know this is best guess stuff, and no one can advise me to break the law, but here goes.

im on a south african passport with permant residency in the UK. im married to an Irish national, and my son was born in the UK. I have some family visiting us, who want to go to France for a short break. the problem is i cant get a schengen visa in time. we plan to go on the ferry from dover to calais, and then return 5 days later. all 4 people ill be travelling with are on British/EU passports.

do i risk going without a schengen visa? i'm pretty sure they dont check my passport on the way over from england (at least they havent the last few times i went on the ferry), but they do check it leaving france. what is the worst that can happen if they see i dont have a schengen visa for this trip (bear in mind i've had about a dozen schengen visas before).

would i be best off saying ive lost my passport and showing my driving licence with photo ID that shows my UK address, but not my nationality?

any advise or suggestions very much welcomed. we are meant to leave for the holiday in 2 days time, so i dont have long to decide on this.

cheers!!

camorra11 · Post by **camorra11** » Fri May 25, 2007 7:29 pm

Hey,

What could happen is that when you enter, they'll deny you entry and they'll have to fill out a form explaining why. And then your name will go in the Schengen Information System (SIS) database and it will always be there and when you apply for visas in the future the consulate will see your name and you may have difficulties either obtaining a visa in the future or perhaps being banned for a certain amount of time.

Or on your way out you may be caught also and the same thing will happen.

I'm the one who originally posted on this thread about re-entering Schengen and although I had booked my tickets I decided in the end not to go. I did a good deal of research on the issue and decided that it was best not to mess around.

True, the probabilities of you getting caught are minimal, but you have to ask yourself the question: If I am caught, and my future in Schengen is jeopardized (either from being banned or having your name is a blacklist database) is that something I'm willing to risk?

In the end, this consequence was something I couldn't stomach because Europe is key to my future (I want to live and work in France) and I decided to be better safe than sorry.

The choice, of course, is entirely yours. If you want more information or links, PM me and I'll try to help you out.

Fairtrade · Post by **Fairtrade** » Sat May 26, 2007 7:21 pm

Like mention in the previous post on this forum. You are not illegal and they will not detain you or put your information on the SIS (schengen info system) database if you don't have a schengen visa trying to enter France because firts of all you are not an illegal immigrant, you have been a resident of the UK since 1991 and you are also married to an Irish national once again a EU citizen. If you can show your marriage certificate plus you and your EU spouse (partners) passport they should allow you entery visa free by law. And therefor you would not be detain or get your info on the SIS database.

You will only get detain if you overstay your visa, not have the right visa or are not married to a EU citizen and therefor have no right to the schengen zone to travel visa free.

But it is up to you to prove your marriage and why you couldn't get a schengen visa in time to border control.

Post by **Directive/2004/38/EC** » Sat May 26, 2007 8:01 pm

camorra11 wrote:What could happen is that when you enter, they'll deny you entry and they'll have to fill out a form explaining why. And then your name will go in the Schengen Information System (SIS) database and it will always be there and when you apply for visas in the future the consulate will see your name and you may have difficulties either obtaining a visa in the future or perhaps being banned for a certain amount of time.

If this is in response to the posting by TipTop, then this is very wrong. He is married to an EU citizen and so has a right of free movement in the EU, which depends only on his family relationship. Various court cases have made this very clear.

If he enters a country and does not have the documentation required by the the border guards, they are required by case law and by Directive 2004/38/EC to not turn him back without letting him prove by other means that he has right of entry (namely his dependent free movement rights)

camorra11 · Post by **camorra11** » Sun May 27, 2007 10:46 pm

I apologize for not having carefully read Tiptop's post and for having given him the wrong advice.

I'll leave it up to the more informed people on this forum to tell him about the legal parameters of his decision.

My response was for non-EU citizens not married to EU citizens, etc...ie, people like me who are American citizens on a visa waiver program who have 90 within 180 days in Schengen.

Again my apologies if my information mislead anyone.

ticklishfeet · Post by **ticklishfeet** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:35 pm

I have a similar question (not sure if I should have posted this in a new topic, let me know if I should).

To clarify - since Switzerland signed the Schengen agreement, but has not yet implemented it, does that mean that a non-EU national can legally stay in the Schengen area for 90 days, then go to Switzerland for 90 days, and then re-enter the Schengen area for another 90 days?

And if I happen to enter Switzerland at a point where there is no passport control, how can I prove (if I need to) that I was in Switzerland for 90 days? Would a signed lease / credit card purchases suffice?

Similarly... since Andorra is not part of the Schengen agreement, could a non-EU national spend 90 days in the Schengen zone, then spend 90 days in Andorra, then another 90 days in the Schengen zone?

Thanks so much for your help!

Dawie · Post by **Dawie** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:41 pm

Switzerland and Andorra have both not yet implemented the Schengen agreement (and as far as I know Andorra has no plans to) so yes, at the moment, going to Switzerland or Andorra from a Schengen country means that you effectively have left the Schengen space.

However, you are likely to encounter problems proving this as Switzerland does not often man land border crossings from France, Germany and Italy and often does not stamp either when entering by airport.

Likewise Andorra has absolutely no border control between itself and Spain and France.

Proving you were in these two countries for 90 days is likely to be very difficult in the absense of entry and exit stamps.

ticklishfeet · Post by **ticklishfeet** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:49 pm

Hi Dawie,

Much thanks for the speedy reply!

That's what I was wondering in terms of proving I was in Switzerland or Andorra (if the passport doesn't get stamped)... if my name on a lease in Switzerland or Andorra, accompanied by a credit card "paper trail" in that country, would be sufficient evidence to prove I was there...?

flyboy · Post by **flyboy** » Wed Jun 20, 2007 4:05 pm

Not sure about Andorra, but in switzerland, if you are visiting and staying with friends or family, they could register you at the local commune, and before departure, get you a registration certificate which mentions your date of arrival and departure, from the particular address you were staying at in switzerland.

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