HSMP rejected (with funny reason) please reply

[kck9]

Dear friends,

As you all might have seen my previous post regarding my cousin who applied for HSMP on May 30th.

He received his result today. Unfortunately they rejected his applicant.

Actually the breakdown is like this.

1. Maters degree - claimed - 35, awarded - 35
2. Previous earnings - claimed - 25, awarded - 20
3. Age - claimed - 10, awarded - 10
4. UK experience - claimed - 5, awarded - 5

Total - claimed 75, awarded 70

This is so frustating. Actually the reason that they have awarded only 20 in my previous earnings is

basically he claimed the duration as 1st April 2006 - 31 March 2007

during which he was working in UK from 1st April - May 5th 2006 (5 weeks) and July 13th 2006 to 31st March 2007 (37.5 weeks).

In the middle say between 5th May 2006 to 12th July 2006 (10 weeks) he was working in India. During that he dont even had the work permit to work in UK. He went back to India for that period and worked there, it was a short term contract position and there he got the salary on the basis of TDS (Tax deduction on Source).

Now he claimed the previous income only for the time period that he was in UK (as it is the place where he spend more time)on pro-rota basis and claimed 25 points which comes under 26000+ band.

But for the India work (10 weeks) he provided the letter from the employer saying that he was working as this and he earned this much etc.
But
1.as he is not claiming any income acquired from India job
2.as he didnt even reach the threshold ( income is below the taxable income)to file a Income tax return and also this come was Tax deduction on source (they haven't given any certificate)
3.also he was not there for long period and he didnt even receive any form-16

so the only proof he had is letter from the employer which he provided and now the home office accepted all the proofs that he has submitted for the UK based income, but as there was no 2 proofs for the India income they allocated only 20 points as the income is 23000+ (without those 10 weeks salary).

Do you think it is compulsory to provide 2 proofs for India income. Can you suggest me if he can fight for this. Please give us some suggestions.

Thank you

[makon]

As far the period he worked in India was within the 12 month period he used to claim points under the earnings category, he has to provide evidence of his earnings in India. He should have been given a payslip, or something, payments made into his bank account. If he cannot provide a payslip then he should explain why and then seek exceptional consideration for the period while in India

[kck9]

But he is not claiming any points. Also it is a short time assignment and Tax was deducted on source and employer didnt even provide the TDS certificate and employer mentioned that he can file the self assessment at the end of financial year, if he can get some more income (more than 100000) which will come under taxable income. But he never worked again in India and the total income was less than Rs 100000.

Also there is no payslips as it was a lumpsum assigment amount. Employer only gave the experience certificate,mentioning the salary earned.

Any other ideas please.

[roy_rajat]

But he is not claiming any points.

Could you please explain yourself clearly...i am bit confused. According to your first post you said that the HO calculated previous earning as 23K+ without the 10 weeks pay in India. And you claimed 26+. Now this 26+ that you claimed...does this include thr 10 weeks he worked in India?
If yes then you need to provide two piece of evidence (employer letter as well as bank statements with reasons explaining your exceptional evidence)

If not then i guess you might go in for review based on the fact that you are not claiming for the 10 weeks period he worked in India!!!

Although in some posts i have been observing that you need to have continuous period of employment i.e break in evidence of salary not acceptable)

[kck9]

If you have lived and worked in more than
one country during the past 15 months we
will normally assess your income over a 12-
month period against the country where you
have spent the longest period, on a pro-rata
basis. For example we consider a period of
up to 12 months in the last 15, so that if you
have spent 8 of the months in the United
Kingdom and 4 in Nigeria, we will take your
earned income in the United Kingdom, divide
it by eight and multiply it by 12 to give an
annual income figure. You will then be
allocated points appropriate to that figure. if
you wish to have your earnings calculated on
a pro-rata basis, you should supply supporting
evidence to cover the full earnings period
claimed. You need to submit the appropriate
forms of evidence for consideration for the
earnings period claimed(see below).

According to the guidance notes, he just need to provide the details of the longest period that he spent (in his case it was UK).

As he was in India only for 10 weeks, he discarded that 10 weeks and he only considered 42 weeks pay which was equal to 23000+. he divided that income by 42 (23000/42) and multiplied by 52 (547X52) which will take him to 26000+ band. I think this what the pro-rota basis means. Please point me out if I am wrong.

[roy_rajat]

Was this fully explained in the covering letter? I guess you have to fight for it in the reiview

[kck9]

Yes it was completely explained. Also can anyone drop in some suggestions whether we need to provide the 2 valid proofs for the salary that he earned in India, but claiming the points on Pro-rota basis for UK based salary.

Please drop you suggestions

[roy_rajat]

Yes it was completely explained. Also can anyone drop in some suggestions whether we need to provide the 2 valid proofs for the salary that he earned in India, but claiming the points on Pro-rota basis for UK based salary.

Please drop you suggestions

Why dont you try to taalk to the caseworker directly and try to get the reason for rejection. And see if a review would help or you need to make fresh application. i have seen few posts i different forums where the caseworker did not pay proper attention to the facts and later advised the applicant to submit for review

[kck9]

Yes, we am trying for that but the case worker is not taking the calls i think. When he call them they are just advicing to apply for review.

[lonelyuk]

Hi kck9,

really sorry to hear that.

how did they inform you that your application was rejected?

did you call the HO and they told you over the phone

OR

have you received the decision letter along with the documents via post already?

[kck9]

hi lonelyuk,

both happened yesterday. he called them yesterday and with in 10 minutes we received the documents.

Want to know if anyone experienced this problem. Actually my cousin claimed

1. Maters degree - claimed - 35, awarded - 35
2. Previous earnings - claimed - 25, awarded - 20
3. Age - claimed - 10, awarded - 10
4. UK experience - claimed - 5, awarded - 5

Total - claimed 75, awarded 70

This is so frustating. Actually the reason that they have awarded only 20 in my previous earnings is

basically he claimed the duration as 1st April 2006 - 31 March 2007

during which he was working in UK from 1st April - May 5th 2006 (5 weeks) and July 13th 2006 to 31st March 2007 (37.5 weeks).

In the middle say between 5th May 2006 to 12th July 2006 (10 weeks) he was working in India. During that he dont even had the work permit to work in UK. He went back to India for that period and worked there, it was a short term contract position and there he got the salary on the basis of TDS (Tax deduction on Source).

Now he claimed the previous income only for the time period that he was in UK (as it is the place where he spend more time)on pro-rota basis and claimed 25 points which comes under 26000+ band.

Now the case worker refused the application because for the work in India (for 10 weeks) we haven't produced 2 valid proofs. He didnt consider the total income on pro-rata basis, he just accumalated the salary for the whole year.

Actually yesterday I have seen the pack that we received, he was completely satisfied with the UK experience and salary statements etc. but he was just expecting some kind of proof from india work in those 10 weeks. Firstly my question is what if we dont have the visa in UK and we just went to India and didnt work at all. is he going to expect us to work and show the proofs.

In the pack we sent all the letters that we have from the Indian employer. He gave us experience letter and in that he also mentioned how much he paid. It also includes a settlement slip as appendix. As it is very short period contract and it is for assignement there are no payslips. (it was something like if we complete the work, we will get money, otherwise no payments). As he completed the work, he received the money and it was not under the taxable income, so he didnt get any tax deductions. Also he came back to UK after that he didnt had any chance to file the self assessment.

Now we have sent the proofs to caseworker.
1. experience letter with a note that this much salary paid.
2. settlement slip with stamp and signature of employer.

both of them stapled together.

Now dont know whether he considered both of them as a single evidence or whether he didnt even see the settlement slip at all.

Do you people know whether there was any cases that caseworker didnt see the evidence before and after that when we applied for review he realised it was already there and issued the HSMP. what are all the chances for review in this scenario.
Also if my cousin is applying for review does he need to keep the same letters (which he already sent with the application).

how can we justify the case if he didnt notice any of the documents. (because he can always say that we haven't received this document before, you are just trying to add it now or something like that)

It is just they are expecting more evidences for India job which was only 10 weeks for the whole earning period. Thats the reason they are not considering the case on pro-rata basis.

Please drop in some suggessions. Thank you

[SYH]

Sounds pretty tacky workmanship from the HO.
Are you saying that you submitted a time frame for which you had sufficient proof and that amount should have earned you the 25 points?
However HO deducted 5 because of let's call it presentation value due to you not brining up the work in India???

[kck9]

Thnx for your reply SYH,

yes its a matter of 10 weeks my cousin went to india during which he hasn't had the valid visa aswell to work in UK (we provided the visa stamps and date of travel from the passport). so while the process of work permit is happening at the back end he joined some company in India and completed the assignment for which he got paid. After that he came back to UK and started working in the same job asusual. His actual earnings show that he can reach 23000+ (20 points band). But as he was living and working in two different countries (UK-42.5 weeks and India-10weeks) we took UK salary on pro-rata basis which took him 26000+ (25 points band) and that we aquired total 75 points exactly.

Now the caseworker accepted all the proofs that we sent for UK salary, but he was asking about the 10 weeks that he spent in India. he want 2 proofs for that.

we have sent the proofs to caseworker.
1. experience letter with a note that this much salary paid.
2. settlement slip (not a pay slip)with stamp and signature of employer.

both of them stapled together.

Now dont know whether he considered both of them as a single evidence or whether he didnt even see the settlement slip at all.

Do you people know whether there was any cases that caseworker didnt see the evidence before and after that when we applied for review he realised it was already there and issued the HSMP. what are all the chances for review in this scenario.
Also if my cousin is applying for review does he need to keep the same letters (which he already sent with the application).

how can we justify the case if he didnt notice any of the documents. (because he can always say that we haven't received this document before, you are just trying to add it now or something like that)

It is just they are expecting more evidences for India job which was only 10 weeks for the whole earning period. Thats the reason they are not considering the case on pro-rata basis.

Please drop in some suggessions. Thank you

[gordon]

The way you describe the work in India, it doesn't sound like salaried employment, but instead would be independent contract work. So the two forms of proof sent appear to be only two of the four items they request for that type of work: contract and invoice (the other two items they want for indep contract work would be bank statements and tax return). Alternatively, if they look at it as salaried employment (which they oughtn't to do, really), then the first item counts as one form of exceptional evidence, right, but you would still not have submitted payslip or tax return. The caseworkers have recently clarified evidentiary expectations of independent contractors, but have held up applications in which contract work is passed off as salaried employment; what your cousin submitted before doesn't appear fully to meet the evidentiary requirements of either category of work. And so, no matter how the work is categorised, further evidence could only be submitted in a new application.

At the very least, it seems likely in the absence of full and proper evidence of the 10-week contract work in India, that the caseworker otherwise looked at that period as a gap in employment or a long holiday (regardless of the visa situation or the country where present for that period). In either case, there would be no justification to pro-rate.

[kck9]

gordon,

thanks for your details response. could you please give me some idea how to review this situation, as my cousin recently crossed the age limit and if we want to apply by new application he will be loosing 5 more points.

Also in the rejection letter it clearly states that

we are unable to pro-rota your UK earnings as you have not provided two pieces of evidence for your work in india in the period 05/2006-07/2006 (10 week period), and we therefore unable to confirm your earnings for this period. We have therefore considered the accumulation of your UK earnings for this section.

this means that he expected 2 proofs and I suspect that he hasn't seen the Indian employer letters completely(do you think this can happen).

Also what will happen if he didnt notice the letters and we say that it has been already provided, during review.

Please suggest.

[gordon]

The caseworker might well have seen the employer's letter (presuming that it indicates that the work was salaried and gives the earnings amount retrospectively) as one form of evidence, but then the second item, from what you suggest, would not have been counted as a payslip. The settlement slip, what is that, exactly?

From what you've written, it then sounds like your cousin is missing the second corroborating piece of evidence for salaried employment that the caseworker needed to see - payslip or tax return. Unless one can demonstrate that the settlement slip is, in fact, a payslip, I'm not sure whether a review would succeed. And even if one did argue that the settlement slip was a payslip, one would still run into the problem that the caseworker or his manager might re-classify the work in India as contract work, rather than salaried employment, and thus further raising the evidentiary bar additionally to include bank statements showing deposits (I hope your cousin submitted bank statements showing all earnings, esp those in India).

[lonelyuk]

Hi kck9,

i got my decision letter and documents back today via courier.

it has been a 'YES' this time, after my unsuccessful initial application (and review).

i don't know if i am feeling happy or what, but more liked numbness, the first time they rejected me, caused me to lose a great opportunity to work at a bulge bracket investment bank and i had 95 qualifying points.

this approval came rather too late, as the offer has already been withdrawn.

experience learned is that one has to be extremely pedantic when preparing the cover letter and outline their application as clearly as possible, treat the caseworker like dumbnuts and leave no ambiguities whatsoever. because their natural inclination is to reject you unless the evidences you have provided eliminates all possible doubts and leave them with no excuse to decline you application.

For your application, i am not sure how well your review will go, but give it a try nonetheless. last time i applied for review though, they simply rejected me saying not enough evidence for exceptional consideration without even alluding to the new evidence provided. so good luck on that.

worst case, you might need to make a fresh application and contribute another 400 pounds to her majesty and hope that the caseworker that's assigned to your case has some common sense and do a professional job.

sorry, i sound a bit bitter because what happened to me.

but best of luck for your review (and new application if necessary).

Richard

[kck9]

Thank you for your kind responses.

gordon

The caseworker might well have seen the employer's letter (presuming that it indicates that the work was salaried and gives the earnings amount retrospectively) as one form of evidence, but then the second item, from what you suggest, would not have been counted as a payslip. The settlement slip, what is that, exactly?

From what you've written, it then sounds like your cousin is missing the second corroborating piece of evidence for salaried employment that the caseworker needed to see - payslip or tax return. Unless one can demonstrate that the settlement slip is, in fact, a payslip, I'm not sure whether a review would succeed. And even if one did argue that the settlement slip was a payslip, one would still run into the problem that the caseworker or his manager might re-classify the work in India as contract work, rather than salaried employment, and thus further raising the evidentiary bar additionally to include bank statements showing deposits (I hope your cousin submitted bank statements showing all earnings, esp those in India).

you are absolutely right. But my doubt is, if one is having a valid visa for certain period, it is obvious that we are out of the country and also he has provided the passport pages copies to show the date of entries etc. Do u think he still need to consider India income. what if one went to India and he never worked and he is just saying that I lived in 2 countries (UK-10 months and India (2months) do we still need to prove that we were working in India or can he directly consider the UK salary only.

Moreover my cousin didnt provide any bank statements for India income, as he thought that he provided enough with the UK based salary (p60,payslips, bank statements, employers letter, audited accounts, incometax return) and with India they just need somekind of proof that he was spending time there doing some work. Settlement slip is something like employer paid the complete amount for the assignment that he allocated (it is something like payslip only but there is no heading), it has got employer stamp and signature. Also I doubt whether he saw the India employer letters or not, as he mentioned that "not provided 2 pieces of evidences".

lonelyuk
congratulations. Thanks for your support. he cant make the new application as he recently lost 5 points with his age. whatever we can do, we have to prove it with review only at this moment, otherwise my cousin needs to show 29000+ which he cant for the time being. problems problems. so do you think we can send the documents that we have actually sent before.

drop your ideas please.

Thank you

[lonelyuk]

hi kck9,

best way to prepare the review is to include all the 'new' evidence that you think is necessary to support your case, however word it in your cover letter that these newly provided evidence should not be considered as new evidence, as they are simply further evidence to support what you originally claimed.

best of luck and let us know how it goes.

ps: it's probably worthwhile if you can talk to the caseworker and ask for his opinion/suggestion. it's much better than us blind guessing as to what they will/will not accept.

[gordon]

I think you might be reading too much into 'not providing 2 pieces of evidence' which could also be read to mean that only one piece of evidence was provided, rather than the required two.

And your cousin must categorically demonstrate the India earnings, they can't simply be ignored; otherwise there's no case to prorate the 42 weeks of UK income to its 52-week equivalent. Not having work authorisation (work permit) in the UK is not sufficient evidence that he was working elsewhere, as it otherwise appears to be a simple gap in earnings. That's why I think that the only chance of proving the case on review would be by having that settlement statement count as a payslip (and I think your cousin would also have to explain why it was salaried employment, rather than contract earnings, to prevent its being reclassified as contract earnings on further examination).

I'm not trying to be difficult, but just playing devil's advocate (not that I think that the caseworkers are devils). I had two extensive and very informative conversations (one with my caseworker, another with her manager) about the issue of contract earnings, so I have a sense of the direction that they would end up taking in a case like yours, given the information you've provided.

G

[kck9]

lovelyuk
Thanks for your reply. I hope they will accept the documents if we am sending them with the review. Ofcourse it is going to be further supporting evidence. Actually we dont have any new document at all. probably we need to explain the same in details by keeping the same documents. Also when we tried to contact the caseworker, they are not at all passing us to him. they are just reading the note which was already mentioned in the letter. they are telling to apply for a review if we are not satisfied.

gordon
brilliant explanation. thanks for your suggesstions. ofcourse you are not at all trying to scare us, but you are giving your own ideas which always counts.

One more thing I want to ask, I know you said they might have counted the document as 1 evidence, but do you think is there any chances of rejecting the case without noticing and again if we produce the same document during review they approved.

I am just asking this because the settlement slip is a very small sheet (not even half A4 page and not on letterhead) and it can be easily ignored.

Please let me know if anyone come accross this situation

[gordon]

Re the settlement sheet, I had a similar situation: for contract earnings (in my case) they wanted four things: tax return, invoices (payment advice statements from source), bank statements, and contracts. Inter alia, I submitted the cheque stubs as 'invoices' - not on letterhead, they indicated who was paying, to whom payment was to be made, for what purpose, and for how much. The cheque stubs (obviously) were 9cm x 21cm bits of perforated paper, and it was, I think, only on the phone that I was able to underscore to the caseworker that those were, in fact, the 'invoices'. To make them visible and difficult to overlook, however, I had attached the invoices to the top of the pile of documents relating to that source of earnings. I think the issue, prior to me conversation with them, was what exactly to make of the cheque stubs (invoices), not where they were.

So if the letter was counted as the single piece of evidence provided (and I hope it says something about salaried employment in there), then your cousin can then turn to the settlement sheet already submitted and try to convince the caseworker that it's a payslip. It will depend on how the payment on the settlement sheet is denoted - in my case, my invoices said 'research consulting fees (month 2006)' - in your cousin's case, the purpose should read as 'earnings (x period)'. Or something like that.

[kck9]

So do you mean to say that you spoke to caseworker over the phone and informed him that they were there. We are actually trying to contact the case worker over the phone, but they are not passing the calls to him completely. dont know whats the reason. I wonder how you are being transfered by the HSMP team to the caseworker. we made nearly 5-6 calls, but they haven't tranferred not even once till now.

In our case the file is already rejected and settlement slip might not be seen or calculated as single evidence. So, we are just planning to send both the documents again with the review. Just want to find what can be the case if the caseworker has not seen the settlement slip and they dont have the copy of that. I hope there will be someother people who might have done the copies/scanning of all our documents.

What do you say? thnx for your time and consideration gordon.

[gordon]

By phone I got through to the caseworker and to her manager while the application was still under consideration; in fact I had contacted them in response to their request for further information by email. It was in that conversation that I was able to discuss what was there (and why) in that problematical section of my application relating to indep contractor earnings.

I'm not sure how to find out whether they have retained full copies of the evidence, let alone what they specifically have. It's clear to me that they didn't unstaple any of my documents (I stapled subsets of my documents together with green and red staples, and neither were the staples removed nor the documents creased, as they would have been if fed through or folded over for a photocopier).

I suspect that they have a copy of the settlement slip; it simply may not have been clear to the caseworker how to interpret it. I hope others weigh in on this: does (re)sending the settlement slip necessarily imply that it is new evidence, and thus could be interpreted as automatic grounds not to review the earlier decision ?

[kck9]

ok gordon, thnx for patience and replies. i will get in touch with you if i need any info.