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Switch from HSMP to WP

Archived UK Tier 1 (General) points system forum. This route no longer exists.

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dost halepoto
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Switch from HSMP to WP

Post by dost halepoto » Thu Jun 28, 2007 5:46 pm

Dear all,
Please share me if any body switched from HSMP to WP and looking to apply for ILR soon or already applied. What is out come.
BCZ i have switched from HSMP to WP after 4 and 6 months and now my 5 years are completing in next month july 2007. However i heard that my previous 4 years will not counted for ILR and my clock starts from zero.
This news makes me worried :( and i want to share some body having simmilar situation and have any legal information to get way out from this condition.
Thanks
Dost

MyHSMPApplication
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Post by MyHSMPApplication » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:24 am

Hi Dost Halepoto,

Your information though entirely isn't correct, is true in parts.

The rule states,
Requirements for indefinite leave to remain as a highly skilled migrant
135G. The requirements for indefinite leave to remain for a person who has been granted leave as a highly skilled migrant are that the applicant:

(i) has spent a continuous period of 5 years lawfully in the United Kingdom, of which the most recent period must have been spent with leave as a highly skilled migrant (in accordance with paragraphs 135A to 135F of these Rules), and the remainder must be made up of leave as a highly skilled migrant, leave as a work permit holder (under paragraphs 128 to 133 of these Rules), or leave as an Innovator (under paragraphs 210A to 210F of these Rules); and

(ii) throughout the five years spent in the United Kingdom has been able to maintain and accommodate himself and any dependants adequately without recourse to public funds; and

(iii) is lawfully economically active in the United Kingdom in employment, self-employment or a combination of both; and

(iv) has sufficient knowledge of the English language and sufficient knowledge about life in the United Kingdom, unless he is under the age of 18 or aged 65 or over at the time he makes his application.

Indefinite leave to remain as a highly skilled migrant
135GA. Indefinite leave to remain may be granted provided that the Secretary of State is satisfied that each of the requirements of paragraph 135G is met and that the application does not fall for refusal under paragraph 135HA.


Hope that explains your situation, that you don't qualify if you dont hold HSMP

Cheers
PG

kck9
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Post by kck9 » Fri Jun 29, 2007 9:02 am

Hi this is one more section in the same page
Indefinite leave to remain for a work permit holder
134. Indefinite leave to remain may be granted, on application, to a person admitted as a work permit holder provided:

(i) he has spent a continuous period of 5 years in the United Kingdom in this capacity; and

(ii) he has met the requirements of paragraph 128 (i) to (v) throughout the 5 year period; and

(iii) he is still required for the employment in question, as certified by his employer; and

(iv) he has sufficient knowledge of the English language and sufficient knowledge about life in the United Kingdom, unless he is under the age of 18 or aged 65 or over at the time he makes his application.

Refusal of indefinite leave to remain for a work permit holder
135. Indefinite leave to remain in the United Kingdom for a work permit holder is to be refused if the Secretary of State is not satisfied that each of the requirements of paragraph 134 is met.

I think the point I underlined is the controversy that is making.....

but you can give a try by calling home office customer contact centre and find the details, they generally give us the information.

hope this helps

dost halepoto
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Switch from HSMP to WP

Post by dost halepoto » Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:52 pm

Hi guys,
Thanks for information, which is true. I also called Home office they also advised that after swiching from HSMP to WP my Previous HSMP period of 4 years would not be counted for ILR which would be due next month.(wish would be true)
Now my WP is finished in july 2007, and expecting to get wp extension for 9 months more but it does not sort out my problem to get ILR.
I wonder if someone Could help me if he has simmilar story or know some one who has swiched from HSMP to WP OR had any legal advise from lawyer to find way out. Also please could you guide me if i apply for ILR in this situation, what will be out come ?
1/ Do they just return the application with note that i am not illigible for ILR and have to apply for FLR on WP to complete 9 years(4 previous HSMP+ 5 WP)
2/ Do They refuse without any other option or right of appeal.
3/Do they refuse with right of appeal
4/ Do they refund fees if they just return application
If they just refuse what would be my legal position if i dont have further WP, can i make any other application i mean Discretionary leave on human rights or exceptional leave to remain
OR Go in court for Jornal review or any thing else
Please any one has ideas please help me. Looking for your advise. :roll:
Thanks
Dost

gordon
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Post by gordon » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:15 pm

Is this the situation in which you would have been eligible for ILR *last July* ? In other words, I would have expected you to have applied for ILR a year ago, before the rules were changed in Nov. Having missed that window of opportunity, it sounds like you've reset your settlement clock. I would expect that one would be subject to the rules at the time of ILR application submission.

Here's a possible scenario: what happens if you apply for HSMP (again) right now and get FLR. Would this mean that, thereafter, you could apply for ILR ? Your 'most recent period' would be on HSMP, and then the 'remainder' of your leave in the five-year window would be made up of the HSMP and WP time, according to 135G(i). Would that work, so that you wouldn't effectively lose the 4.5 years settlement-eligible years on the clock.

I've only seen rules that suggest that one can no longer go from HSMP to WP to ILR, not that one couldn't go from HSMP to WP back to HSMP and then ILR.

Just a thought; I'm only speculating.

AG

gordon
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Post by gordon » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:18 pm

I've only seen rules that suggest that one can no longer go from HSMP to WP to ILR, not that one couldn't go from HSMP to WP back to HSMP and then ILR.
To clarify, I mean within the five year minimum.

dost halepoto
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Switch from HSMP to WP

Post by dost halepoto » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:34 pm

Dear Gordon,
Thanks for suggestions. Infact my ILR was due in july 2006 but new rule which changed the period from 4 to 5 years introduced in april 2006 (bad luck) so i couldnt apply.
However your idea to switch again to HSMP might be worthful, however still needs more confirmation from home office.
Thanks
Dost


gordon wrote:
I've only seen rules that suggest that one can no longer go from HSMP to WP to ILR, not that one couldn't go from HSMP to WP back to HSMP and then ILR.
To clarify, I mean within the five year minimum.

SYH
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Post by SYH » Fri Jun 29, 2007 2:53 pm

Curious, why did you switch out of HSMP???
In any case, switching back would be the only way to get the prior hsmp time back OR
LONG SHOT, apply for ILR under exceptional circumstances and see if they buy it. What do you have to lose except 750 pounds

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Re: Switch from HSMP to WP

Post by geriatrix » Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:25 pm

dost halepoto wrote:However your idea to switch again to HSMP might be worthful, however still needs more confirmation from home office.
Not saying that you shouldn't confirm from HO, but paragraph 13G(i) is exactly about what Gordon has proposed.

regards

pantaiema
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Post by pantaiema » Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:08 pm

I think, people switch from HSMP to WP because of recent change that require the existing HSMP to requalify points of 75. Some people do not reach the threshold point and therefore have to swich to WP.

Pantaiema



SYH wrote:Curious, why did you switch out of HSMP???
In any case, switching back would be the only way to get the prior hsmp time back OR
LONG SHOT, apply for ILR under exceptional circumstances and see if they buy it. What do you have to lose except 750 pounds

SYH
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Post by SYH » Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:12 pm

pantaiema wrote:I think, people switch from HSMP to WP because of recent change that require the existing HSMP to requalify points of 75. Some people do not reach the threshold point and therefore have to swich to WP.

Pantaiema



SYH wrote:Curious, why did you switch out of HSMP???
In any case, switching back would be the only way to get the prior hsmp time back OR
LONG SHOT, apply for ILR under exceptional circumstances and see if they buy it. What do you have to lose except 750 pounds
I am aware of the change but he renewed under wp before the change

pantaiema
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Post by pantaiema » Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:14 pm

People could defenitely switch again to HSMP from WP once they reach the thereshold point of 75. No rules deter people of doing this and their time spent on WP (after HSMP cloct reset) count as well toward 5 years ILR as long as the last chunk of perios spent under HSMP.

However, I do not see any benefit of this (apart from beeing flexible to switch the job, if you want to) as under WP you could also get ILR once you have WP for 5 years. And nowadays I have seen quite reasonable number of people (sofar from high street companies) have been awarded WP+VISA for 5 years (not 3 years).

In the meanwhile if you switch to HSMP remember it will be treated as initial application and you will only be granted for 2 years (not 3 years or 4 years). After 2 years you need to qualify again if not need to swtich to WP again and your clock will reset again.

Pantaiema
gordon wrote: I've only seen rules that suggest that one can no longer go from HSMP to WP to ILR, not that one couldn't go from HSMP to WP back to HSMP and then ILR.

Just a thought; I'm only speculating.

AG

gordon
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Post by gordon » Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:08 pm

pantaiema

The point of my comment was to explore the possibility of dost halepoto's obtaining ILR in the near future, not 4.5 years from now. The question is the clock re-set when one applies for ILR while on WP, in contrast to doing so while on HSMP at the point of ILR application. Two examples:

Person A is on HSMP for one year and then switches to WP for four years thereafter. According to the current rules, person A would have to wait one more years (on WP) to qualify for ILR. The clock has been re-set, de facto, because the regulations do not appear to permit WP-holders to amalgamate other leave with their WP leave, to meet the five-year minimum.
Indefinite leave to remain for a work permit holder

134. Indefinite leave to remain may be granted, on application, to a person admitted as a work permit holder provided:

(i) he has spent a continuous period of 5 years in the United Kingdom in this capacity; and

(ii) he has met the requirements of paragraph 128 (i) to (v) throughout the 5 year period; and

(iii) he is still required for the employment in question, as certified by his employer; and

(iv) he has sufficient knowledge of the English language and sufficient knowledge about life in the United Kingdom, unless he is under the age of 18 or aged 65 or over at the time he makes his application.
In contrast, Person B is on HSMP for one year, then on WP for three years, and then back on HSMP for the fifth year. Can person B apply for ILR? The regs indicate that the applicant would have to apply for ILR with the most recent period (unspecified duration) on HSMP, and that previous (but continuous) settlement-eligible time could include HSMP, WP, or innovator leave.
Requirements for indefinite leave to remain as a highly skilled migrant

135G. The requirements for indefinite leave to remain for a person who has been granted leave as a highly skilled migrant are that the applicant:

(i) has spent a continuous period of 5 years lawfully in the United Kingdom, of which the most recent period must have been spent with leave as a highly skilled migrant (in accordance with paragraphs 135A to 135F of these Rules), and the remainder must be made up of leave as a highly skilled migrant, leave as a work permit holder (under paragraphs 128 to 133 of these Rules), or leave as an Innovator (under paragraphs 210A to 210F of these Rules); and

(ii) throughout the five years spent in the United Kingdom has been able to maintain and accommodate himself and any dependants adequately without recourse to public funds; and

(iii) is lawfully economically active in the United Kingdom in employment, self-employment or a combination of both; and

(iv) has sufficient knowledge of the English language and sufficient knowledge about life in the United Kingdom, unless he is under the age of 18 or aged 65 or over at the time he makes his application.
It is not remotely clear to me that dost halepoto must wait until early 2012 to apply for ILR if he varies his leave back to HSMP sooner than that. The question is: if he switches back to HSMP now, would he then be able to 'claim back' his settlement-eligible time and apply for ILR in, say, late summer 2007 ? I can't find anything that precludes his doing so - and that's why it's a thought exercise. But whatever one thinks of such a proposal, it seems to me that having ILR in the near future would be a tremendous benefit for dost halepoto.

AG

pantaiema
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Post by pantaiema » Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:32 pm

gordon wrote:pantaiema
Person A is on HSMP for one year and then switches to WP for four years thereafter. According to the current rules, person A would have to wait one more years (on WP) to qualify for ILR. The clock has been re-set, de facto, because the regulations do not appear to permit WP-holders to amalgamate other leave with their WP leave, to meet the five-year minimum.
AG
Gordon, I completely agree with this. As their clock was reset once they switch to WP

gordon wrote: In contrast, Person B is on HSMP for one year, then on WP for three years, and then back on HSMP for the fifth year. Can person B apply for ILR? The regs indicate that the applicant would have to apply for ILR with the most recent period (unspecified duration) on HSMP, and that previous (but continuous) settlement-eligible time could include HSMP, WP, or innovator leave.
AG
I think they could only apply ILR after WP (3 years) + 3 years+ under HSMP (when they switch back) as the most recent time under HSMP must be greater then WP. So at least 6 years after they switch back to HSMP from WP. The previous leave under HSMO is here irrelevant is it is already reset once you switch to WP. But I am not sure about this.
That is the reason why I did not see any benefit to switch to HSMP if you are already under WP for 3 years.

This is a really interesting discussion, probably other members coud shed the light.

pantaiema
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Post by pantaiema » Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:38 pm

SYH,
If this is the case than I am really confusing about this person case. I even doubt that such case is exist as I do not see any reason why person under HSMP could make such bad decision.
SYH wrote:
I am aware of the change but he renewed under wp before the change

SYH
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Post by SYH » Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:56 pm

pantaiema wrote:SYH,
If this is the case than I am really confusing about this person case. I even doubt that such case is exist as I do not see any reason why person under HSMP could make such bad decision.
SYH wrote:
I am aware of the change but he renewed under wp before the change
Yep he applied in July last year for the change. after the 4 to 5 change but before the point system change so he should have renewed under hsmp. oh well

Rog
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Post by Rog » Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:01 pm

H O keeps stating that the revision from 4 to 5 is to bring ILR in line with EU. However, as per EU directives, a person who has been in a working visa for 5 years, has been economically active and can show that he/she can support himself without assistance from the state should by given ILR.

In this case, resetting the clock is contranvention of the EU norms. HSMP holders who switch to WP should get ILR after 4 years HSMP followed by 1 year WP. When such cases come up, it will be difficult for HO to refuse ILR in most cases

SYH
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Post by SYH » Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:09 pm

Rog wrote:H O keeps stating that the revision from 4 to 5 is to bring ILR in line with EU. However, as per EU directives, a person who has been in a working visa for 5 years, has been economically active and can show that he/she can support himself without assistance from the state should by given ILR.

In this case, resetting the clock is contranvention of the EU norms. HSMP holders who switch to WP should get ILR after 4 years HSMP followed by 1 year WP. When such cases come up, it will be difficult for HO to refuse ILR in most cases
However there is nothing written on the ho side indicating that this is a recognized method to ILR

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Post by Rog » Sat Jun 30, 2007 12:23 pm

Agreed, the HO's stand is that if you switch to WP your previous leave as HSMP does not count towards ILR with affectively states that they will restart the clock

I am pointing out that this is in contravention to European guidelines of 5 years as a working immigrant leads to ILR

Hence if a person with 4 years HSMP + 1 year WP is refused ILR he can legally challenge the HO on this, as they have changed the ILR 4-5 to bring it line with Eur norms hence have to follow the other norms as well. This is providing he has been working for 5 years and does not have criminal convictions etc

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Post by SYH » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:00 pm

Rog wrote:Agreed, the HO's stand is that if you switch to WP your previous leave as HSMP does not count towards ILR with affectively states that they will restart the clock

I am pointing out that this is in contravention to European guidelines of 5 years as a working immigrant leads to ILR

Hence if a person with 4 years HSMP + 1 year WP is refused ILR he can legally challenge the HO on this, as they have changed the ILR 4-5 to bring it line with Eur norms hence have to follow the other norms as well. This is providing he has been working for 5 years and does not have criminal convictions etc
Ok but I think there may be a basis for why the HO would not recognize hsmp then wp status leading to ILR. As HSMP, you were not obligated to work every single moment under that status if you had it for 5 years to obtain ILR where as with wp you pretty much were. If you are not holding this "elite" status when you reach 5 years of residency then you get broadsided with the burdens of restarting the 5 year clock.

Further, I don't think this person wants to spearhead the cause of WP ILR with former HSMP credit for the 5 year term. I do think she might have an argument with the change of the rules that she was so close that this switch was forced upon her but should not be used again her to earn ILR even though I still don't understand why she didn't renew under hsmp in the first place as the point system hadn't been revamped at that point.

Your point of keeping in line with EU is a good one, but in fact, I feel, the HO is just using that as an excuse because you normally can obtain citizenship in most eu countries after working in a country for 5 years whereas in the uk, the 5 years needed for ILR and 1 additional year on ILR to get citizenship effectively makes it 6 years. Granted you are speaking about permanent residency but UK is one of the few perhaps even the only one with this additional measure of requiring permanent residency before applying for citizenship. When they had hsmp with 4 years for ILR, I felt they were bringing the UK in line with other EU countries based on citizenship comparison.

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