How strict are the referee requirements?

[MrBrilliant]

Due to the fact that I have moved several times in my 5-6 years living in the UK, I'm having trouble finding professional British citizens who have known me for 3 years!

How strict are the requirements for the referee?

For example:
1. Can you apply with only 1 referee?
2. Does a software engineer working for a respectable large company count as "a member of a professional body"?
3. Can I use my landlord?

Any other advice on where to get referees?

[CR001]

Due to the fact that I have moved several times in my 5-6 years living in the UK, I'm having trouble finding professional British citizens who have known me for 3 years!

How strict are the requirements for the referee?

For example:
1. Can you apply with only 1 referee? No
2. Does a software engineer working for a respectable large company count as "a member of a professional body"? A professional body would be like what Accountants belong to to be able to practice or solicitors belong to. Not sure if there is one for Software Engineers but there is one for mechanical/electrical/structural Engineers. Professional body is not employer.
3. Can I use my landlord? Is Landlord on the list and how does he qualify as professional?

Any other advice on where to get referees? Only you will know as it has to be someone that you know. It can also be someone of any nationality as a professional referee.

[MrBrilliant]

This is a pretty harsh requirement, so somebody that doesn't satisfy the referee simply can't become a citizen?

My landlord was a stockbroker, so I think he would qualify as "broker" is in the list. What exactly do I need to ask him in order to find out?

[ouflak1]

Due to the fact that I have moved several times in my 5-6 years living in the UK, I'm having trouble finding professional British citizens who have known me for 3 years!

How strict are the requirements for the referee?

Strict.

For example:
1. Can you apply with only 1 referee?
2. Does a software engineer working for a respectable large company count as "a member of a professional body"?
3. Can I use my landlord?

1) As already said, no.
2) The professional body for software engineers is the British Computer Society. He would have to be a professional grade member or a research fellow (MBCS or FBCS) in order to qualify as a professional referee.
3) If your landlord meets the requirements, yes. Since he was a stockbroker, to meet the professional requirement he would have to be a member of the Chartered Institute for Securities and Investment.

Any other advice on where to get referees?

Are you practicing any religion? How well do you know and get along with your doctor? Do you regularly have to have documents notarized? Does somebody do your accounting? There may be more possibilities around than you realize.

This is a pretty harsh requirement, so somebody that doesn't satisfy the referee (requirement) simply can't become a citizen?

Well the idea behind becoming a citizen is not just longevity of stay. It's respect for the laws, an effort to become familiar with the culture and language, and evidence of having established a life in the country. There aren't a lot of ways for anyone to get proof the latter, and the method the UK government has chosen is 2 referees who are not relatives, known for 3 years, with the professional/citizenship requirement. So yes, as harsh as it may seem, perhaps you simply won't really qualify for citizenship until you can establish those kind of ties.

[IndiMarshall]

This is a pretty harsh requirement, so somebody that doesn't satisfy the referee simply can't become a citizen?

My landlord was a stockbroker, so I think he would qualify as "broker" is in the list. What exactly do I need to ask him in order to find out?

yeah mate..its harsh.. not all will know a professional person for 3 yrs and even personal reference can sometimes become tough.. I agree with you..

[MrBrilliant]

Are you practicing any religion? How well do you know and get along with your doctor? Do you regularly have to have documents notarized? Does somebody do your accounting? There may be more possibilities around than you realize.

I don't practice religion. I don't see a doctor regularly as I'm a healthy person. I don't need documents notarized. I haven't needed an accountant until last year.

Well the idea behind becoming a citizen is not just longevity of stay. It's respect for the laws, an effort to become familiar with the culture and language, and evidence of having established a life in the country. There aren't a lot of ways for anyone to get proof the latter, and the method the UK government has chosen is 2 referees who are not relatives, known for 3 years, with the professional/citizenship requirement. So yes, as harsh as it may seem, perhaps you simply won't really qualify for citizenship until you can establish those kind of ties.

Respectfully I disagree.

Ironically, people who regularly see a "minister of religion" or a doctor clearly possess a weakness of mind or body, and to be honest I think that indicates more of a detriment of character than an effort to "respect local laws" or "become familiar with the culture".

Also, the requirement of being part of a professional body is just silly and archaic. I know people that are top-level software engineers at Google, developing software that changes the world, and yet those people aren't considered "professional", whilst some idiot who took a 6-month course to be an electrician is considered a legitimate "professional engineer".

I think a far better proof of the fact that I've established a life in this country is that I'm running a successful business, I'm financially stable, and I'm pursuing a graduate degree at Oxford university.

I think it's time somebody stood up and addressed this issue. Maybe we should write a letter.

[IndiMarshall]

Due to the fact that I have moved several times in my 5-6 years living in the UK, I'm having trouble finding professional British citizens who have known me for 3 years!

How strict are the requirements for the referee?

Strict.

For example:
1. Can you apply with only 1 referee?
2. Does a software engineer working for a respectable large company count as "a member of a professional body"?
3. Can I use my landlord?

1) As already said, no.
2) The professional body for software engineers is the British Computer Society. He would have to be a professional grade member or a research fellow (MBCS or FBCS) in order to qualify as a professional referee.
3) If your landlord meets the requirements, yes. Since he was a stockbroker, to meet the professional requirement he would have to be a member of the Chartered Institute for Securities and Investment.

Any other advice on where to get referees?

Are you practicing any religion? How well do you know and get along with your doctor? Do you regularly have to have documents notarized? Does somebody do your accounting? There may be more possibilities around than you realize.

This is a pretty harsh requirement, so somebody that doesn't satisfy the referee (requirement) simply can't become a citizen?

Well the idea behind becoming a citizen is not just longevity of stay. It's respect for the laws, an effort to become familiar with the culture and language, and evidence of having established a life in the country. There aren't a lot of ways for anyone to get proof the latter, and the method the UK government has chosen is 2 referees who are not relatives, known for 3 years, with the professional/citizenship requirement. So yes, as harsh as it may seem, perhaps you simply won't really qualify for citizenship until you can establish those kind of ties.

.. Although I agree the logic and integrating into the society .. ..
I am sorry I have to disagree with you ... Many here get the professional reference (need not be british) and personal reference from their own friends of thier own nationality who have naturalized and got British passport (at later stage) in past few months and yet UKBA accepts..i.e there is no clause the referee should be born british and be white/black/brown etc .. so.. have they all maintained relation with locals and integrated into British community as you think ?.. Shouldn't UKBA take back all the British passports as per your logic ? ... I would say UKBA should comeup with something that really makes sense interms of referees..

[IndiMarshall]

Are you practicing any religion? How well do you know and get along with your doctor? Do you regularly have to have documents notarized? Does somebody do your accounting? There may be more possibilities around than you realize.

I don't practice religion. I don't see a doctor regularly as I'm a healthy person. I don't need documents notarized. I haven't needed an accountant until last year.

Well the idea behind becoming a citizen is not just longevity of stay. It's respect for the laws, an effort to become familiar with the culture and language, and evidence of having established a life in the country. There aren't a lot of ways for anyone to get proof the latter, and the method the UK government has chosen is 2 referees who are not relatives, known for 3 years, with the professional/citizenship requirement. So yes, as harsh as it may seem, perhaps you simply won't really qualify for citizenship until you can establish those kind of ties.

Respectfully I disagree.

Ironically, people who regularly see a "minister of religion" or a doctor clearly possess a weakness of mind or body, and to be honest I think that indicates more of a detriment of character than an effort to "respect local laws" or "become familiar with the culture".

Also, the requirement of being part of a professional body is just silly and archaic. I know people that are top-level software engineers at Google, developing software that changes the world, and yet those people aren't considered "professional", whilst some idiot who took a 6-month course to be an electrician is considered a legitimate "professional engineer".

I think a far better proof of the fact that I've established a life in this country is that I'm running a successful business, I'm financially stable, and I'm pursuing a graduate degree at Oxford university.

I think it's time somebody stood up and addressed this issue. Maybe we should write a letter.

Perfectly said

[ouflak1]

Are you practicing any religion? How well do you know and get along with your doctor? Do you regularly have to have documents notarized? Does somebody do your accounting? There may be more possibilities around than you realize.

I don't practice religion. I don't see a doctor regularly as I'm a healthy person. I don't need documents notarized. I haven't needed an accountant until last year.

My point with these questions wasn't meant to be specific, but general what-their-looking-for kind of guidance. You might actually have a couple of people in your life who would qualify as professional referees. There is a sticky thread (in fact two threads) on this forum just above which provides some solid information

Well the idea behind becoming a citizen is not just longevity of stay. It's respect for the laws, an effort to become familiar with the culture and language, and evidence of having established a life in the country. There aren't a lot of ways for anyone to get proof the latter, and the method the UK government has chosen is 2 referees who are not relatives, known for 3 years, with the professional/citizenship requirement. So yes, as harsh as it may seem, perhaps you simply won't really qualify for citizenship until you can establish those kind of ties.

Respectfully I disagree.

Ironically, people who regularly see a "minister of religion" or a doctor clearly possess a weakness of mind or body, and to be honest I think that indicates more of a detriment of character than an effort to "respect local laws" or "become familiar with the culture".

I wouldn't take this personally. They didn't make this rule with the idea in mind of excluding you in particular. There is a long, occasionally sordid, sometimes controversial, history behind these requirements and why they exist.

Also, the requirement of being part of a professional body is just silly and archaic. I know people that are top-level software engineers at Google, developing software that changes the world, and yet those people aren't considered "professional", whilst some idiot who took a 6-month course to be an electrician is considered a legitimate "professional engineer".

Not a chance. In order to become a professional grade member of these organizations, you have to have extensive demonstrated experience in your particular field (technically 5 years, but realistically 10 years or more), and also have colleagues of similar experience in your field be your referee for those applications. The 'top-level software engineers at Google' would almost certainly qualify for such membership without any hesitation, ...if they were interested.

In order to become a research fellow, you have to have a minimum of 3 published articles in internationally recognized journals of that field, as well as a slew of academic qualifications, often atleast a PhD.

I think a far better proof of the fact that I've established a life in this country is that I'm running a successful business, I'm financially stable, and I'm pursuing a graduate degree at Oxford university.

I think it's time somebody stood up and addressed this issue. Maybe we should write a letter.

If you're running a successful business, it's hard to imagine you haven't established a few contacts that could maybe qualify as referees.

I know it's disappointing, but you have to try and perhaps see things from the UK point of view. How can they, in a very generic fashion that is across-the-board applicable, ask a large number of people to demonstrate that they have established a life here in the UK? And that's not just a professional life, or academic life. I'm sure there are several good answers to that question, and I don't doubt that they considered many possibilities. If you like, write them. Maybe you've got a better idea than what they've already considered. But right now, it is the way it is.

.. Although I agree the logic and integrating into the society .. ..
I am sorry I have to disagree with you ... Many here get the professional reference (need not be british) and personal reference from their own friends of thier own nationality who have naturalized and got British passport (at later stage) in past few months and yet UKBA accepts..i.e there is no clause the referee should be born british and be white/black/brown etc .. so.. have they all maintained relation with locals and integrated into British community as you think ?.. Shouldn't UKBA take back all the British passports as per your logic ? ... I would say UKBA should comeup with something that really makes sense interms of referees..

Atleast one referee has to be a British. The reason why they allow this mixing of citizenship backgrounds and professional qualification is because they aren't just looking for somebody who's established a professional (or academic) life here, they are looking for someone who has also got a personal life here as well. It's not perfect. If you've got any better ideas, I'm sure they are listening. Citizenship is a big deal for the UK government and they are interested in knowing what we think on this point.

[mkzp]

Agree with ouflak1

[MrBrilliant]

If you're running a successful business, it's hard to imagine you haven't established a few contacts that could maybe qualify as referees.

I have contacts, but not many that I've known for 3 years. To be honest, I think I can find 2 people if I do some digging, but it'll be a close call and therefore uncomfortable close to being a serious problem.

.. Although I agree the logic and integrating into the society .. ..
I am sorry I have to disagree with you ... Many here get the professional reference (need not be british) and personal reference from their own friends of thier own nationality who have naturalized and got British passport (at later stage) in past few months and yet UKBA accepts..i.e there is no clause the referee should be born british and be white/black/brown etc .. so.. have they all maintained relation with locals and integrated into British community as you think ?.. Shouldn't UKBA take back all the British passports as per your logic ? ... I would say UKBA should comeup with something that really makes sense interms of referees..

Atleast one referee has to be a British. The reason why they allow this mixing of citizenship backgrounds and professional qualification is because they aren't just looking for somebody who's established a professional (or academic) life here, they are looking for someone who has also got a personal life here as well. It's not perfect. If you've got any better ideas, I'm sure they are listening. Citizenship is a big deal for the UK government and they are interested in knowing what we think on this point.

One referee has to have a British passport. IndiMarshall's point is that this person could have just gotten the British passport last week. It could very well be someone who has refused to integrate with society, and like many immigrants, only chooses to make friends with people from his own country in an isolated sub-community, which we've all seen and I think is harmful for the country as a whole. So this requirement doesn't address this problem at all.

It's very difficult, without individual psychological evaluation, to establish whether someone has a good personal life.

[IndiMarshall]

Are you practicing any religion? How well do you know and get along with your doctor? Do you regularly have to have documents notarized? Does somebody do your accounting? There may be more possibilities around than you realize.

I don't practice religion. I don't see a doctor regularly as I'm a healthy person. I don't need documents notarized. I haven't needed an accountant until last year.

My point with these questions wasn't meant to be specific, but general what-their-looking-for kind of guidance. You might actually have a couple of people in your life who would qualify as professional referees. There is a sticky thread (in fact two threads) on this forum just above which provides some solid information

Well the idea behind becoming a citizen is not just longevity of stay. It's respect for the laws, an effort to become familiar with the culture and language, and evidence of having established a life in the country. There aren't a lot of ways for anyone to get proof the latter, and the method the UK government has chosen is 2 referees who are not relatives, known for 3 years, with the professional/citizenship requirement. So yes, as harsh as it may seem, perhaps you simply won't really qualify for citizenship until you can establish those kind of ties.

Respectfully I disagree.

Ironically, people who regularly see a "minister of religion" or a doctor clearly possess a weakness of mind or body, and to be honest I think that indicates more of a detriment of character than an effort to "respect local laws" or "become familiar with the culture".

I wouldn't take this personally. They didn't make this rule with the idea in mind of excluding you in particular. There is a long, occasionally sordid, sometimes controversial, history behind these requirements and why they exist.

Also, the requirement of being part of a professional body is just silly and archaic. I know people that are top-level software engineers at Google, developing software that changes the world, and yet those people aren't considered "professional", whilst some idiot who took a 6-month course to be an electrician is considered a legitimate "professional engineer".

Not a chance. In order to become a professional grade member of these organizations, you have to have extensive demonstrated experience in your particular field (technically 5 years, but realistically 10 years or more), and also have colleagues of similar experience in your field be your referee for those applications. The 'top-level software engineers at Google' would almost certainly qualify for such membership without any hesitation, ...if they were interested.

In order to become a research fellow, you have to have a minimum of 3 published articles in internationally recognized journals of that field, as well as a slew of academic qualifications, often atleast a PhD.

I think a far better proof of the fact that I've established a life in this country is that I'm running a successful business, I'm financially stable, and I'm pursuing a graduate degree at Oxford university.

I think it's time somebody stood up and addressed this issue. Maybe we should write a letter.

If you're running a successful business, it's hard to imagine you haven't established a few contacts that could maybe qualify as referees.

I know it's disappointing, but you have to try and perhaps see things from the UK point of view. How can they, in a very generic fashion that is across-the-board applicable, ask a large number of people to demonstrate that they have established a life here in the UK? And that's not just a professional life, or academic life. I'm sure there are several good answers to that question, and I don't doubt that they considered many possibilities. If you like, write them. Maybe you've got a better idea than what they've already considered. But right now, it is the way it is.

.. Although I agree the logic and integrating into the society .. ..
I am sorry I have to disagree with you ... Many here get the professional reference (need not be british) and personal reference from their own friends of thier own nationality who have naturalized and got British passport (at later stage) in past few months and yet UKBA accepts..i.e there is no clause the referee should be born british and be white/black/brown etc .. so.. have they all maintained relation with locals and integrated into British community as you think ?.. Shouldn't UKBA take back all the British passports as per your logic ? ... I would say UKBA should comeup with something that really makes sense interms of referees..

Atleast one referee has to be a British. The reason why they allow this mixing of citizenship backgrounds and professional qualification is because they aren't just looking for somebody who's established a professional (or academic) life here, they are looking for someone who has also got a personal life here as well. It's not perfect. If you've got any better ideas, I'm sure they are listening. Citizenship is a big deal for the UK government and they are interested in knowing what we think on this point.

Glad you agreed to this.. If you agree that its not perfect.. You simply cant support UKBA and say Mr Brilliant is not eligbile for citizenship.. You seem to have better ideas and good konwledge of how and why everthing is done .. Please get in touch with them as now atleast you realized that its not perfect.

[ouflak1]

One referee has to have a British passport. IndiMarshall's point is that this person could have just gotten the British passport last week. It could very well be someone who has refused to integrate with society, and like many immigrants, only chooses to make friends with people from his own country in an isolated sub-community, which we've all seen and I think is harmful for the country as a whole. So this requirement doesn't address this problem at all.

It's very difficult, without individual psychological evaluation, to establish whether someone has a good personal life.

I understood his point perfectly well and you are absolutely right about how questionable it could be that someone who is British, by whatever means, is actually a member of this society. But from the UK's perspective, they have to judge each case on the balance of merits. It is not perfect.

Glad you agreed to this.. If you agree that its not perfect.. You simply cant support UKBA and say Mr Brilliant is not eligbile for citizenship.. You seem to have better ideas and good konwledge of how and why everthing is done .. Please get in touch with them as now atleast you realized that its not perfect.

It doesn't matter if I support <insert whoever> or disagree with <insert rule>. This is the rule right now and it is not hard to see why they've done things the way they've done them. Also plenty of genuine applicants have gone this process successfully, hence my comment on eligibility.

[IndiMarshall]

If you're running a successful business, it's hard to imagine you haven't established a few contacts that could maybe qualify as referees.

I have contacts, but not many that I've known for 3 years. To be honest, I think I can find 2 people if I do some digging, but it'll be a close call and therefore uncomfortable close to being a serious problem.

.. Although I agree the logic and integrating into the society .. ..
I am sorry I have to disagree with you ... Many here get the professional reference (need not be british) and personal reference from their own friends of thier own nationality who have naturalized and got British passport (at later stage) in past few months and yet UKBA accepts..i.e there is no clause the referee should be born british and be white/black/brown etc .. so.. have they all maintained relation with locals and integrated into British community as you think ?.. Shouldn't UKBA take back all the British passports as per your logic ? ... I would say UKBA should comeup with something that really makes sense interms of referees..

Atleast one referee has to be a British. The reason why they allow this mixing of citizenship backgrounds and professional qualification is because they aren't just looking for somebody who's established a professional (or academic) life here, they are looking for someone who has also got a personal life here as well. It's not perfect. If you've got any better ideas, I'm sure they are listening. Citizenship is a big deal for the UK government and they are interested in knowing what we think on this point.

One referee has to have a British passport. IndiMarshall's point is that this person could have just gotten the British passport last week. It could very well be someone who has refused to integrate with society, and like many immigrants, only chooses to make friends with people from his own country in an isolated sub-community, which we've all seen and I think is harmful for the country as a whole. So this requirement doesn't address this problem at all.

It's very difficult, without individual psychological evaluation, to establish whether someone has a good personal life.

Its not just this.. someone who has set up a LTD company with very little money online in few hrs and having a company email ID can act as your professional (I cant get into detail as i dont know complete processs..its damn easy processs .. my colleague does that for his friends. he is software contractor.. no big deal..) . there are many flaws.. Enough said ..

[IndiMarshall]

One referee has to have a British passport. IndiMarshall's point is that this person could have just gotten the British passport last week. It could very well be someone who has refused to integrate with society, and like many immigrants, only chooses to make friends with people from his own country in an isolated sub-community, which we've all seen and I think is harmful for the country as a whole. So this requirement doesn't address this problem at all.

It's very difficult, without individual psychological evaluation, to establish whether someone has a good personal life.

I understood his point perfectly well and you are absolutely right about how questionable it could be that someone who is British, by whatever means, is actually a member of this society. But from the UK's perspective, they have to judge each case on the balance of merits. It is not perfect.

Glad you agreed to this.. If you agree that its not perfect.. You simply cant support UKBA and say Mr Brilliant is not eligbile for citizenship.. You seem to have better ideas and good konwledge of how and why everthing is done .. Please get in touch with them as now atleast you realized that its not perfect.

It doesn't matter if I support <insert whoever> or disagree with <insert rule>. This is the rule right now and it is not hard to see why they've done things the way they've done them. Also plenty of genuine applicants have gone this process successfully, hence my comment on eligibility.

let us all take a chill pil
Mr Brilliant ..what is your next plan of action ?

[MrBrilliant]

let us all take a chill pil
Mr Brilliant ..what is your next plan of action ?

I'm going to start calling up some of my old friends from 3-4 years ago, see if any of them have any professional qualifications or a British passport. They're going to think I'm insane, lol.

Have you managed to jump through this hoop yet? If so, what sort of professional did you find?

[IndiMarshall]

let us all take a chill pil
Mr Brilliant ..what is your next plan of action ?

I'm going to start calling up some of my old friends from 3-4 years ago, see if any of them have any professional qualifications or a British passport. They're going to think I'm insane, lol.

Have you managed to jump through this hoop yet? If so, what sort of professional did you find?

yep... my referee is professional grade member of MBCS

[ouflak1]

let us all take a chill pil
Mr Brilliant ..what is your next plan of action ?

I'm going to start calling up some of my old friends from 3-4 years ago, see if any of them have any professional qualifications or a British passport. They're going to think I'm insane, lol.

Have you managed to jump through this hoop yet? If so, what sort of professional did you find?

I have as well. The Vicar of my church was my professional referee. I've also been a professional referee myself (MBCS). It's doable. Your friends might think of it in a very complimentary fashion. I'm an eternal optimist.

[ryan1512lon]

I agree with IndiMarshall, let's take a chill pill!

There are rules and requirements to become a British Citizen, they won't make it easier, quite the opposite.

Citizenship is a privilege not a right, they can refuse your application, and there is no right of appeal against the decision to refuse the application, and guess what? You can, now, be naturalized as a British citizen and can be stripped of your citizenship, obviously if someone has done something against the interests of the UK, although there is no clear definition about it.

So my advice is, get your application right, 2 genuine referees as they will check on them, and chill, again British Citizenship is a privilege not a right.

[MrBrilliant]

So my advice is, get your application right, 2 genuine referees as they will check on them, and chill, again British Citizenship is a privilege not a right.

How do they check whether or not your contact has known you for 3 years? As I understand this is nearly impossible to prove or disprove...

[MrBrilliant]

I agree with IndiMarshall, let's take a chill pill!

There are rules and requirements to become a British Citizen, they won't make it easier, quite the opposite.

Citizenship is a privilege not a right, they can refuse your application, and there is no right of appeal against the decision to refuse the application, and guess what? You can, now, be naturalized as a British citizen and can be stripped of your citizenship, obviously if someone has done something against the interests of the UK, although there is no clear definition about it.

So my advice is, get your application right, 2 genuine referees as they will check on them, and chill, again British Citizenship is a privilege not a right.

Also, I agree that citizenship is a privilege not a right....

HOWEVER. If they start making arbitrary silly filters that make little sense, there is plenty of room to question it. If they say "you can only become a citizen if you're this tall and have red hair", I think there is some room to question the reason behind it. In this case, whether or not you happen to have known a "professional" for 3 years is very arbitrary and random; hardly any different from "do you have red hair".

[badratio]

It can be a professional from your home country if you can't find anyone else.

[ouflak1]

So my advice is, get your application right, 2 genuine referees as they will check on them, and chill, again British Citizenship is a privilege not a right.

How do they check whether or not your contact has known you for 3 years? As I understand this is nearly impossible to prove or disprove...

If they do contact your references, it is not a hard set of questions to confirm when and where you would have met. If they are suspicious of anything after that contact, they may well dig further into the matter.

[vivdubes]

One of the referee should be british and the other one could be any nationality so I dont see that as an issue to find, unless you live completely in hibernation with no social contacts..

[MrBrilliant]

One of the referee should be british and the other one could be any nationality so I dont see that as an issue to find, unless you live completely in hibernation with no social contacts..

Have you read the requirements? The "other nationality" has to be a part of a professional body, how many people outside the UK qualify as being part of a UK recognized professional body.

You're not paying attention my friend; you just jumped at the opportunity to make a derogatory statement.