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Irish citizen married to and nonEU member

Forum to discuss all things Blarney | Ireland immigration

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ciaramc
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Irish citizen married to and nonEU member

Post by ciaramc » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:38 pm

Hey all.....

Well just looking for some advise???? Iam from an EU member country (Ireland) and have been living abroad (Italy)for more than 5 years....Im married...my husband is from a visa required country( Morocco).

I have always know that I would move back to Ireland and just never thought of all the problems that can stand in my way??? :roll: :roll:

Since I live abroad in another member state I have been told that I can use my EU treaty rights??? But how can I find out about them....My husband and I have been waiting over a year....for his new permit of stay here in Italy and as a result he can not travel?

I have decided enough that I want to move back home ...but have realized that it is just as bad if not more difficult in Ireland?

Can anyone fill me in on anything as whenever I go onto a Government website ...they are always underconstruction ...and everytime I call Im on hold or always busy?????

Maybe I have been away to long??? But has Ireland always been like this???? Impossible to get the correct information?

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:49 pm

I think you'll have the right to bring your husband under the 'surinder singh' case judgement...that was applied in the UK.I don't know if the judgement is valid for Ireland as well.
Check here...
http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... nder+singh
http://eumovement.wordpress.com/info-ireland/
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categ ... ng-country
Last edited by archigabe on Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

John
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Post by John » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:50 pm

I think you simply need to contact the Irish Embassy in Italy and ask for the form to apply for an EEA Family Permit.

Given that you have exercised your EU Treaty Rights for at least 6 months ..... indeed for 5 years .... you are entitled to use the Surinder Singh route ..... using your rights as an EU citizen to live with your husband in Ireland.

The application fee for applying for an EEA Family Permit is .... FREE!

As an alternative you could use Irish immigration law to apply for a spouse visa, but that would not be free.
John

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:55 pm

John wrote:I think you simply need to contact the Irish Embassy in Italy and ask for the form to apply for an EEA Family Permit.
I dont think there's a category called EEA family permit for Ireland.That's for the UK. It's Either the E.U Spouse Visa or the Irish Spouse Visa. Since you are Irish you would have to use the Irish Spouse Visa.

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:13 pm

Since you are Irish you would have to use the Irish Spouse Visa.
I don't necessarily think that's the case. I think the Singh rule applies to the whole of the EU, not just the UK.

"21.4.8 Surinder Singh cases
The ECJ case of Surinder Singh states that nationals of a Member State who go with their non-EEA family members to another Member State to exercise a Treaty right in an economic capacity, (as a worker or self-employed person) will on return to their home state, be entitled to bring their non-EEA family members to join them under EC law."
http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/servlet/Front ... ur%20eight
That was taken from UK visas, and it states that it is EC law, so I guess I would think it would apply to Irish citizens exercising treaty rights in another country and wanting to return as well. But one never knows with the Irish government.

If the Singh rule is also applied in Ireland, then The OP's spouse could apply for EU1. If they have documentation of residing together in Italy, then they also satisfy the ridiculous requirement the Irish have for EU1 applications of having resided in another member state.

Anyone know more about this?

Platinum
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Post by Platinum » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:27 pm

I think the Singh rule works for the whole of the EU. The question is, which would be easier, the EU1 or an Irish spouse visa?

You will definitely get the EU1 approved, because you've lived in another EU country together, but it will probably still take six months or longer. Plus, I'm frankly unsure that the Irish DoJ have heard of or know how to implement the Singh ruling. I think you'll describe your situation to people, and they'll hear that you're Irish and automatically try to get you to go the spouse visa route.

I don't know how long the spouse visa takes. Friends who are married to Irish citizens have told me it takes no time at all. They've been given the Stamp 4 almost immediately. However, these are people from non-visa required countries, so your case may be more complicated.

limey
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Post by limey » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:31 pm

The EEA Family Permit (uk) or EU Spouse visa rules should be exactly the same across the whole of the EU/EEA area. That is the whole idea of the freedom of movement treaty rights of EU/EEA nationals.

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:40 pm

ok so just by living in another EU member state I have been exercising my EU treaty rights? I have been working for 5 years here? :shock: everytime I mention these treaty rights here people look at me and have no idea what Im talking about....I do not mind waiting as 6 months does not seem that bad considering some of the people I have met have been waiting years!!!

Its just trying to get information! I would contact the Irish embassy except there website is permanently down!!!! and I work...and live quite far away ...to just drop by :( :( and to get them on the phone they tell you to come in in person so you never win! :? :? :?

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Tue Jul 17, 2007 3:41 pm

Also my husband did not come to Italy with me ...he was already here? :?

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:11 pm

Also my husband did not come to Italy with me ...he was already here?
That shouldn't matter, as long as you have proof of residing together in Italy for a period of time (say 6 months or more). As long as you have been living/working in Italy, you are considered as exercising treaty rights.
everytime I mention these treaty rights here people look at me and have no idea what Im talking about....
LOL! My hubby was the same way when I explained it to him, and he's the EU citizen.

They've been given the Stamp 4 almost immediately. However, these are people from non-visa required countries, so your case may be more complicated.
That's what I was wondering about. The only thing about the Irish authorities dealing with immigration that is consistent is their notorious inconsistancy. But, as far as an EU1 application, all the criteria seems to be met so long as the Irish are aware of the Singh rule.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:36 pm

yankeegirl wrote:But, as far as an EU1 application, all the criteria seems to be met so long as the Irish are aware of the Singh rule.
They will definitely be aware of Singh. And worst case, you can always include a reference to it in your covering letter.



ciaramc, I think you posted last year about the situation. I would suggest you apply early at the Irish embassy in case there are any problems. I would definitely apply under EU law, as you have real rights that way which they will not be able to deny you. And do not hesitate to contact the EU's Citizen Signpost service http://ec.europa.eu/citizensrights/ to get their take on your situation.

BigAppleWoodenShoe
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Post by BigAppleWoodenShoe » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:18 am

limey wrote:The EEA Family Permit (uk) or EU Spouse visa rules should be exactly the same across the whole of the EU/EEA area. That is the whole idea of the freedom of movement treaty rights of EU/EEA nationals.
No, it is an EU directive, it is not an EU law, because there are no EU laws.
The European Union has written up directives from A to Z, but it is to the individual countries themself to put them through.
If Ireland feels fit to not follow the directive, the EU can't stop them.
The EU is not an European version of the USA, it is just a bunch of countries in a union trying to work together.
Dutch husband, American wife, applied for a residence card, after 7 months got a Stamp 4 visa for two years. :)

limey
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Post by limey » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:41 am

Wooden: EU countries do have to implement the directives or may face EC legal action. Also, people affected by non-implememntation of an EU directive may be able to claim compensation! Who is going to be first for compensation? :-)

European Union directive

Implementation
When adopted, directives give member states a timetable for the implementation of the intended outcome. Occasionally the laws of a member state may already comply with this outcome and the state involved would only be required to keep their laws in place. But more commonly member states are required to make changes to their laws in order for the directive to be implemented correctly. If a member state fails to pass the required national legislation, or if the national legislation does not adequately comply with the requirements of the directive, the European Commission may initiate legal action against the member state in the European Court of Justice.

Direct Effect
Notwithstanding the fact that directives were not originally thought to be binding before they were implemented by member states, the European Court of Justice developed the doctrine of direct effect where unimplemented or badly implemented directives can actually have direct legal force. And in Francovich v. Italy the court found that member states could be liable to pay damages to individuals and companies who had been adversely affected by the non-implementation of a directive.

Full details here...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_directive

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Post by JAJ » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:39 pm

limey wrote:Wooden: EU countries do have to implement the directives or may face EC legal action. Also, people affected by non-implememntation of an EU directive may be able to claim compensation!
The difference is that a member state remains free to change its domestic law to defy EU rules. This of course could entail leaving the EU completely, but the option is still there.

U.S. states don't have that option, as a number of them found out in the 1860s.

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:54 pm

Your right I did post last year but it got so difficult :twisted: :twisted: that we just decided to stay as we are....but now I just wanna go home :roll:

You have all been a great help I will keep you informed.... on how the process goes...

You would be amazed what people think of the EU ...I was asked just a couple of weeks ago by the immigration here was I sure Ireland was part of The EU :shock: :shock: :shock: I thought the lady was joking even when I showed her my passport which clearly with the EU logo and she still didnt believe me she got out a map!!!!!!! :?:

Yam Yam
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How to get started?

Post by Yam Yam » Wed Jul 25, 2007 7:56 pm

Seems like everyone here has made it so far but I am at a loss to even find the forms to even start the process. I am living in the UK now and the embassy here wants a king's ransom on a 0900#. I sent an email to:

visamail@justice.ie

I was given a vague answer that lead me through the inus website that directed me to download a form from DFA a dead link.

My situation: Irish Cit in the UK with wife who is mother to an Irish Cit, our daughter. She holds a UK resident card, US "R" 10 year, Schengen and etc. Health insurance is not an issue because my company covers it all at a private level. I am at a loss why it should be a problem at all but from what I have read and my reply from the above email address; I will not make my move date of October.

Please, tell me where I start and what should I do.


Cheers,
Yam

yankeegirl
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Post by yankeegirl » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:25 pm

Yam,
What nationality is your wife? That can help to determine your course of action.

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Re: How to get started?

Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:23 pm

Yam Yam wrote:Seems like everyone here has made it so far but I am at a loss to even find the forms to even start the process. I am living in the UK now and the embassy here wants a king's ransom on a 0900#. I sent an email to:

visamail@justice.ie

I was given a vague answer that lead me through the inus website that directed me to download a form from DFA a dead link.

My situation: Irish Cit in the UK with wife who is mother to an Irish Cit, our daughter. She holds a UK resident card, US "R" 10 year, Schengen and etc. Health insurance is not an issue because my company covers it all at a private level. I am at a loss why it should be a problem at all but from what I have read and my reply from the above email address; I will not make my move date of October.

Please, tell me where I start and what should I do.


Cheers,
Yam
What is it that you want to do exactly? Move back to Ireland with your family?

archigabe
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Post by archigabe » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:25 pm

Start from Here...
http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000023
The link for the Irish national spouse seems to be under rework...don't know what new craziness they are cooking up!

limey
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Post by limey » Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:21 am

Archi: Do u know how long the Spouse page has been under re-construction? Seems a little strange to remove it completely! :?:

Directive/2004/38/EC
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Post by Directive/2004/38/EC » Thu Jul 26, 2007 6:49 am

If you are married to an Irish citizen who has been working (or otherwise exercising treaty rights) in another EU state, and you want to move back to Ireland, then you have a choice.

You can apply for a visa under normal Irish law for a residence permit for your spouse, though this likely costs quite a bit and it is unclear what rights you have to work and travel in the first couple of year.

Or you can apply for a visa under EU law, which applies in this case because the EU citizen has been exercising treaty rights and is now returning "home". See http://eumovement.wordpress.com/2007/04 ... ional-law/ for details of why you can use EU law. EU law has the benefit of being free, clearly defined rights (at least in this case), and the non-EU spouse can work immediately and travel if desired.

The requirements for the visa are very straight forward. See http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000228 for the documentation an EU citizen needs to provide, to which you will have to add a little bit.

As spouse of an Irish citizen who has been exercising treaty rights in another EU country, you will also need to provide:
(1) evidence that the Irish citizen has been exercising treaty rights while in the other member state, e.g. one recent pay slip or a letter from an employer, or letter from the school
(2) A letter to the embassy that is very clear and direct. The letter needs to say:
-- that you are the spouse of an Irish citizen who has been exercising European Treaty Rights while working in the UK
-- Your spouse plans to continue exercising their treaty rights when they return to Ireland by working or studying (you do not need to already have a job or study space)
-- Because of the decision in Surinder Singh (Case C-370/90 The Queen v Immigration Appeal Tribunal et Surinder Singh, ex parte Secretary of State for Home Department) you are applying on the basis of EU law and under the framework of Directive 2004/38/EC
-- In accordance with the embassy's obligations under Directive 2004/38/EC, you expect the visa to be issued as soon as possible, on the basis of an accelerated process, and at no cost.
The information the Irish provide on their web sites and by telephone is very poor. Calling the expensive 0900 number will not get you any better information. Send the application form, letter and supporting documentation to the embassy. Let them sort it out and let you know if they want more information. You will hear back from them in a few days.

Just fill out the application form (I would use the standard VA1), leaving Q22 and Q23 blank if you do not want to answer them (they are not relevant in this case) and very clearly indicate the reason is "to live and work in Ireland with my Irish husband who has been exercising EU treaty rights".

In my experience, they ask for additional information, but you can usually tell them it is not needed under European law and then they stop asking (specifically bank statements are not needed).

In each and every communication with them, clearly state that that the application is made on the basis of EU law and refer to "Surinder Singh" (which they will know of) and Directive 2004/38/EC.

Always photocopy every page of everything you send to them. Do you application by post so you have it all in writing. Send you application by special delivery and include a pre-addressed pre-paid special delivery envelope for return of documents. Do not bother applying in person - you will waste your time and, in my experience, the person dealing with it will either incorrectly refuse to accept the application or give you bad information.

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:14 am

Once again!

I have been trying to get in contact with the Irish embassy here for the past week! Surprise surprise no reply....so I thought I would come to the experts for help!!! You lot seem to know it all!

I have printed out the EU1 form ...which has written on it APPLICATION FOR A RESIDENCE CARD.

Don' want to sound like a complete moron...but is this the right form! as it asks for the Applicants residence in Ireland and the PPS no. Which obviouly my husband does not have!

And all of the pages seem to be underconstruction!

Help anyone?

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:26 am

Just thought that I would let you all know that I was told I cannot use my EU treaty rights as Ireland is not a schengan country ????

Now Im more confused than ever!

John
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Post by John » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:31 am

ciaramc, who has told you that? There are of course totally separate matters.
John

ciaramc
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Post by ciaramc » Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:37 am

I just spoke to the consular office and she told me I would have to apply for a d- spouse visa under Irish law when I asked her about exercising my treaty rights as I have lived outside Ireland she told me no that the DOJ would decide and they are the ones that grant my husbands visa!

When I asked about the EU1 she told me no thats not right that she would send me the information!

She told me if I have any more quieries I can send an email to visamail@justice.ie

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