New Uk Immigration System

[CHINN]

Hi,
Under the new PBS(point based system) immigration system
what happens to tier 2(work permit) immigrant's ? NO ILR(PR)
only way to get ILR(PR) is to switch to tier 1(HSMP)
go to following link's

http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/56..._id1511564.pdf

Chinn

[apeterso925]

Hi,
Under the new PBS(point based system) immigration system
what happens to tier 2(work permit) immigrant's ? NO ILR(PR)
only way to get ILR(PR) is to switch to tier 1(HSMP)
go to following link's

http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/56..._id1511564.pdf

Chinn

a) this is a dead link and

b) since the people posting and browsing on this forum are already in possession of/are pursuing an HSMP visa (and are, therefore, not concerned with work permits), how is this issue relevant to this forum?

[CHINN]

Try this link
http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/564/H ... 511564.pdf

Chinn

[mayana]

another cause for suspense?

Be wise
Mayana

[antony]

Hi,

Does this change affects the HSMP holders currently in the uk with the new rules that came into effect from Dec 5'2006.

How this inturn affect the dependants status?

antony

[UKbound]

The document shows the new HSMP programme being introduced in 1Q08.. I hope it's not a big change from now, or that we get grandfathered in.. Given the changes in the past, though, it doesn't seem likely. :-/

[apeterso925]

Try this link
http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/564/H ... 511564.pdf

Chinn

Hmm...it seems a bit odd (and, admittedly, a little personally insulting) that no extra points are awarded for a Master's degree...but overall, the point system for tier 2 seems pretty fair.

I am only mid-level on the ladder in my field and from my research, I can expect to earn at least 40K GBP once I land a job...so I would qualify just on earnings and education, as that's 60 points.

I point out the mid-level part because honestly, I have felt (and still feel) that though I certainly earned and deserve my HSMP visa, there are other HSMPers who are far more qualified than I am! So if I can get 60 points, it seems most of us could, no?

Of course, I still have to actually *get* this hypothetical job, but I will

[gordon]

But it makes sense that the PBS is biased in tier 2 away from individual attributes/qualifications and toward labour market shortages and/or labour market tests. My understanding is that tier 1 is meant to attract those who bring particular skills, while tier 2 is focused on particular gaps in the labour market. On the presumption that highly skilled or very specialised jobs will fall into the HSMP category (tier 1), to the extent that 40k+ salaries might reflect this in part, then the argument goes that earnings and education themselves will be insufficient in tier 2, thus requiring shortage/labour market points for those that otherwise do not qualify for HSMP. It seems that a real effort is being made to make tier 1 and tier 2 more distinct from each other, to reduce the current overlap between them, and differential assignment of points is one possible way to do so.

AG

[apeterso925]

But it makes sense that the PBS is biased in tier 2 away from individual attributes/qualifications and toward labour market shortages and/or labour market tests. My understanding is that tier 1 is meant to attract those who bring particular skills, while tier 2 is focused on particular gaps in the labour market. On the presumption that highly skilled or very specialised jobs will fall into the HSMP category (tier 1), to the extent that 40k+ salaries might reflect this in part, then the argument goes that earnings and education themselves will be insufficient in tier 2, thus requiring shortage/labour market points for those that otherwise do not qualify for HSMP. It seems that a real effort is being made to make tier 1 and tier 2 more distinct from each other, to reduce the current overlap between them, and differential assignment of points is one possible way to do so.

AG

A fair point and it does make sense. And I really can't find a solid argument against the obvious focus on what is best for the UK, rather than what is best for us...so while my ego wants extra points for my MBA, my logical side knows that what matters is whether or not I can fill a void in the UK job market, and further, whether I can positively affect the UK economy. Although I'm still sure I buy that my MBA doesn't mean more from an economic perspective, but we'll see.

Obviously, I would love for the new system to allow me to gain FLR in 2 years, but I can't very well expect the government to keep me on if I'm not pulling my weight!

Though I intended to hold out and focus on the less abundant, but better paying, jobs anyway for reasons of quality of life, I'll plan to focus on it that much more. It seems that we'll have an obligation to ourselves to prove our further worth to the government.

Not entirely fair, perhaps, but reality rarely is.

[gordon]

One can perhaps take an economic argument here: tier 1 is geared toward promoting productivity growth, while tier 2 is geared toward filling gaps in existing production mechanisms. So one looks to tier 1 people (such as entrepreneurs) to raise productive capacity in the economy over the longer term, in areas and ways that have rather more unknowns at this point, while tier 2 people are intended more to meet current and more visible needs. AG

[apeterso925]

One can perhaps take an economic argument here: tier 1 is geared toward promoting productivity growth, while tier 2 is geared toward filling gaps in existing production mechanisms. So one looks to tier 1 people (such as entrepreneurs) to raise productive capacity in the economy over the longer term, in areas and ways that have rather more unknowns at this point, while tier 2 people are intended more to meet current and more visible needs. AG

and that's a very fair and logical argument...but if we follow that argument, doesn't that make tier 2 people the safer bet?

We may not have the exponential potential that is hoped for with tier 1, but we represent a far more concrete payout for the government. So, in this case, it might seem more logical to go back to judging tier 1 and tier 2 as equal, from a net benefit perspective.

The possible large gains from tier 1 people are offset by the many unknowns surrounding those possible gains, while the smaller gains from tier 2 people are offset by the more tangible nature of our contributions.

It does make me reconsider the idea of starting my own business though (and therefore bumping myself to tier 1)...certainly a huge amount of stress at the outset, but a possibly much larger payoff than I'm currently seeing, both personally and professionally.

[gordon]

I never meant to suggest that tier 1 and tier 2 were not equal, but merely that on a macro- or policy level they may serve different purposes. The expected values in the short-run of both may well end up being the same (after controlling for risk factors), but with a mature industrialised economy like the UK there is reason to believe that they need an explicit strategy to attract that highly-skilled talent to promote productivity growth, which ultimately is the greater long-term engine of growth. On an individual level, tier 2 may seem safer, while tier 1 would entail more risk (hedged in favour of the BIA, which can use the PBS aggregately to cull those who do not meet minimum defined expectations). There's a certain Darwinism in the process, you might say.

The perspective might be that someone like you might take paid employment in the beginning to get yourself started, but as a highly-skilled migrant would perhaps shoulder the risk of starting your own business at a later point, which arguably would add to the economy to a greater extent in future.

AG

[apeterso925]

I never meant to suggest that tier 1 and tier 2 were not equal, but merely that on a macro- or policy level they may serve different purposes. The expected values of both may well end up being the same (after controlling for risk factors), but with a mature industrialised economy like the UK there is reason to believe that they need an explicit strategy to attract that highly-skilled talent to promote productivity growth, which ultimately is the greater long-term engine of growth. On an individual level, tier 2 may seem safer, while tier 1 would entail more risk (hedged in favour of the BIA, which can use the PBS aggregately to cull those who do not meet minimum defined expectations). There's a certain Darwinism in the process, you might say.
AG

No, I didn't think you did - but it seems the government sees tier 1 as superior to tier 2, at least for now.

I myself am quite the fan of Darwinism (however harsh it may seem), I'm just not entirely happy that I may end up on the wrong end of it!

But I will concede that the new system looks a bit more focused on results than on previous accomplishments, as the current one is. And of course, results are what matter.

[first2last4]

Try this link
http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/564/H ... 511564.pdf

Chinn

This seems to suggest that Tier 2 will not qualify for ILR, but at the same time contradict with earlier released document which confirmed ILR for both tier 1 and tier 2.

[SYH]

Try this link
http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/564/H ... 511564.pdf

Chinn

This seems to suggest that Tier 2 will not qualify for ILR, but at the same time contradict with earlier released document which confirmed ILR for both tier 1 and tier 2.

Love those Biometric ID's at the bottom of the flow chart

[CHINN]

Hi,

This consultation supersedes all other previous consultations. if this recemmondations are passed in the parliment then that is what can be expected in the near future.

Chinn

Try this link
http://www.communities.gov.uk/pub/564/H ... 511564.pdf

Chinn

This seems to suggest that Tier 2 will not qualify for ILR, but at the same time contradict with earlier released document which confirmed ILR for both tier 1 and tier 2.

[gordon]

Leaving entirely aside the fact that it looks like a bad powerpoint job, the suggestion is that tier 2 is in the 'permanent channel' (see top of graph). Likewise, when one looks at that figure under citizenship, that's based on an aggregation that currently includes tier 2. This document is a discussion of the MIF's role, not a policy statement or even a consultation per se. AG

[CHINN]

Once it comes into force it would be effect all who have limited leave to remain, for further extensions the new rule would be enforced.
Chinn

Hi,

Does this change affects the HSMP holders currently in the uk with the new rules that came into effect from Dec 5'2006.

How this inturn affect the dependants status?

antony

[jay101]

hey guys ...
ny more news on the Tier 1 and Tier 2 of the new system ? the link above only shows the tier 2 category without much info on the Tier 1 . . .

cheers

[CHINN]

Hi,

Tier 1 will be for scientists,entrepreneurs, i.e. applicants educated above masters degree and tier 2 would be for doctors, engineers, teachers, dentists etc. They have not still completed the internal consultation on the tier system. We should hear the final version some time later in the year.

or further details follow the link
http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/aboutu ... asedsystem


Chinn

[gordon]

Tier 1 will be for scientists,entrepreneurs, i.e. applicants educated above masters degree [...]
Chinn

Any evidence for the your point about degree qualification, since the link is not particularly informative on this regard. Your assertion seems to signal a marked departure from prior reports, e.g., Making migration work for Britain (2006), and A common place (2007).

[CHINN]

Hi,
Follow the link
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/289 ... ns+set+out

Chinn

[gordon]

Thanks for the second link (although it, like the earlier one, does not corroborate your earlier assertion on rising educational requirements in tier 1).

[apeterso925]

Thanks for the second link (although it, like the earlier one, does not corroborate your earlier assertion on rising educational requirements in tier 1).

I agree with AG.

There doesn't seem to be much point in getting sensationalist about the whatifs and maybes that haven't been decided yet...and there is absolutely no point in making up information to fill in the unknowns.

The second link doesn't really say anything definitive and the earlier link only gets specific enough to say this:

"tier 1 - highly skilled, e.g. scientists or entrepreneurs;
tier 2 - skilled workers with a job offer, e.g. nurses, teachers, engineers;"

I don't think, given this reference, that it's true to say that tier 1 will require a master's degree. In fact, from the examples for tier 2 qualifiers, even tier 2 won't require a master's degree.

Further, the original reference in this thread showed that for tier 2, the points available for educational qualification ignore any value that might be added through a master's degree - the points for a bachelor degree and for a master degree were the same.

[mroracle]

I am going to apply for HSMP ijn October, 2007. Now,you say NEW PBS is coming.
What about my chances??? I mean the reflection of new PBS to HSMP appliers???

What do you think?

Thanks in advance.