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Protest against the life in the uk test

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davebolwell
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Protest against the life in the uk test

Post by davebolwell » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:14 am

I am currently in a situation where my family could be forced apart due to the new law passed in April of this year that stops spouses of UK residents being able to get ILR visa without passing the life in the uk test.

I have organised a site at www.lifeuktest.co.uk

If anybody else has a similar story or advice or can leave a message of support, please visit the site.

Regards

Dave

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Re: Protest against the life in the uk test

Post by AlexCh » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:26 am

The test is a joke - it takes 1 day to read the book and 5 minutes to pass the test.

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Post by John » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:48 am

I am currently in a situation where my family could be forced apart due to the new law passed in April of this year that stops spouses of UK residents being able to get ILR visa without passing the life in the uk test.
Correct about the test (but see below), but your conclusion about families needing to live apart is totally incorrect!
We will not be able to claim indefinite leave to remain and my wife will not be able to live here with us.
Absolutely incorrect! You are worrying yourself unnecessarily.

A careful read of the BIA website will show that it is totally possible for the person to apply for a further time-limited visa, and thus there is no question of anyone needing to live apart from their family.
The test is a joke - it takes 1 day to read the book and 5 minutes to pass the test.
That of course depends upon English language ability. Whilst the test might be almost a non-event for those from an English language country .... USA, Australia etc etc ..... it is often rather difficult for those from a non-English language country.

Dave has posted in the link he provides that his wife is from Japan, and unless she majored in English at University there is no way that "it takes 1 day to read the book and 5 minutes to pass the test" will apply to her.

Dave, a further point. Providing a pass certificate from the Life in the UK test is just one of two types of certificate that can be provided when applying for ILR. The other, specifically for those of low ability regarding English, is to provide a completion certificate from a combined ESOL/Citizenship course.
Last edited by John on Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:58 am, edited 3 times in total.
John

SYH
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Post by SYH » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:51 am

Dave
I advise you to take the path of least resistance.
Granted it isn't fun to keep paying for a 2yr spouse visa but that is an option.
I also grant that the test is a crock and it doesn't prove anything.
However, the test is ridicously easy and the level of English needed for it is low.
I suggest your wife take the test to see how she would do and to get a feel for it.
the test doesn't cost that much and you can take as many times as needed. This is a gift considering that they haven't also put a limit on how many times to take it.

After taking the trial run, or before it, she should buy the materials and just read the materials and buy the practice test booklet and do them too, after some studying you might be surprised, she might pass.

Finally, if her level of English is so bad that she can't take the exam then so is her quality of life in the UK. You should be concerned how she is able to get around. What if an emergency comes up and heaven forbid you are not available? You are doing her a disservice by insisting she need not have a limited knowledge of English to pass the uk test.

This statement is no means endorsing the crap test. It is crap, I admit it but for this occassion it is time to batten down the hatches.

Sometimes you just have to play the game.

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Post by Dawie » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:12 am

Dave, you need to take a chill pill. Your family is not going to be split apart. Let me point out some errors in your website. I'll quote directly from your site.
Failure to pass this test would result in the resident being unable to claim a visa and there for having to leave the country.
Incorrect. Failure to pass the test results in not being able to apply for ILR. Just because you cannot apply for ILR does not mean you have to leave the country. For example if you are on a spouse visa, it can simply be renewed if you cannot pass the test.
Our family is there for under threat. We will not be able to claim indefinite leave to remain and my wife will not be able to live here with us.
This is complete and utter rubbish. If your wife is not ready to take the test and cannot obtain ILR she can simply renew her spouse visa. There is absolutely no threat of her being kicked out of the country or your family breaking apart, as you claim.
My first concern with the test is who it targets. As far as I am aware any citizen from any of the 27 countries with in the EU has a right to reside in the UK indefinitely with out a visa. There for this test does not apply to them. So peoples concerns about the huge influx of foreigners many of whom are from the EU, and in particular the eastern block seem to think that this test applies to them where in fact it does not.
ANYONE, including EU citizens, who wants to obtain British citizenship, will, at some stage, have to pass the Life in the UK test. Whether this is at the ILR stage (for non-EU citizens) or actual naturalisation (for EU citizens) everyone ultimately has to pass this test.
I have also noted in my research that foreign-born Imams are immune from this test. So it seems straight away that this test is not fair in the fact that it does not target everybody only a select few.
This is incorrect. If an Imam wants to obtain ILR they will have to write the test like anyone else.
So who does this test target? As I mentioned earlier it seems to target those foreign people who are married to a British Citizen.
Incorrect again. Everyone who wants to obtain ILR and British citizenship has to write this test. Noone is being targeted.
Originally the test was only for those wanting to give up their nationality and claim British citizenship. However the government saw fit to extend the test to those who wish to claim indefinite leave to remain. There is a huge difference between these two. Somebody who wants to claim citizenship wants to reside here for the rest of their life, they want to give up their nationality and become British. Somebody who wishes to apply for the indefinite leave to remain visa does not; they will live between two countries and will not give up their native citizenship.
Incorrect again. Not everyone has to give up their original citizenship in order to become a British citizen. The vast majority of people who become British citizens keep their original citizenships and are dual citizens (some people even have 3 or more nationalities). Furthermore, just because you become a British citizen does not mean that you want to live here for the rest of your life. Many people find having a British passport much more convenient for world travel.
The only other option available to us is to keep buying 400 pound 2year visas which I can not afford to do. I also do not see why I should pay 400 pounds every 2 years for my wife to stay part of our family. If you have that sort of money you could in theory stay here indefinitely on a spouse visa, so why hold back on giving indefinite leave to remain to spouses?
So you admit that actually DO have another option if your wife cannot pass the Life in the UK test. You can't afford £400 every 2 years? But you can afford to live between 2 different countries? Geez guy, something doesn't add up here. £400 divided by 24 months is £16.66 per month. You're saying you can't afford to put away £16.66 every month for a visa so that your wife can stay in the country?
The test requires you to be fluent in English as it uses very complex language. My wife's level of English is not yet at that stage. To expect a foreigner to become a fluent English speaker within 2 years of living here is just plain crazy. I lived in Japan for 4 years and while I am a good speaker of conversational Japanese I am by no means fluent. That would take 8 years or longer.
Sorry to say that 2 years is plenty of time to become fluent in English if you willing to make the effort. I know many non-English speakers who have come to the UK with hardly any English and become quite fluent within a few months.
This deeply irritates me as I am British, our baby is British but his mother, my wife isn't seen to have the same right to live here. As I work I pay taxes to the country and I then have to pay extra money to keep my family together. Surely somebody married to a British citizen with a family should have a natural right to reside here.
Your wife has been given a (renewable) spouse visa to live here. You should be grateful for that. Many people struggle to even get spouse visas for their wives or husbands to join them in the UK. And you're moaning because your wife is expected to speak English? In England?
I mean if anybody from Poland can come here go the job centre pick up a Polish leaflet and stay here as long as they like, can my wife not have the same right?
No she can't. Japan is not part of the EU.
The 400 pound 2 year visa is too expensive for me to afford. In Japan the same visa costs 20 pounds! If the price here was the same I wouldn't mind but it isn't. There for we wish to apply for indefinite leave to remain but it appears we aren't British enough to do it yet.
Again, £16.66 per month! That's a few pints down at your local.
If any foreigner has a right to live here surely it must those who are married to a UK citizen and have a family, rather than those who have no connection, such as immigrants from the EU.
Actually, immigrants from the EU do have a connection to the UK. It's called the EUROPEAN UNION.
Oh and finally let us not forget article 16 of the human rights act that states it is a basic human right to be able to live with your family.
Noone is trying to separate you from your family. Your wife has a spouse visa and is with you here.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by avjones » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:54 am

Hello Dave - your website contains a lot of inaccuracies, to be honest. There is no risk of your wife being torn apart from your family - it's not test + ILR on the one hand, or leaving on the other. You can (or rather, she can) apply for another 2-year spouse visa.

I think the test is a bit silly, but I can't see what is unreasonable about expecting your wife to learn English. If she can't do it in 2 years, she can get a 2 year extension and get learning!

Your website is melodramatic, rather than based in reality, ISTM.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

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Post by John » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:36 pm

Clearly Dave has put a lot of effort into developing his website and forum ..... all based upon a misunderstanding!

Great shame he did not sign up for this Board before embarking upon all that work.
John

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Post by Dawie » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:46 pm

I have no objection to Dave having a rant about something, even if it is based on incorrect assumptions.

However, in this case his ranting only serves to belittle the suffering of those families who are genuinely facing seperation because of Home Office visa policies. Not only that, but when people quote the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to highlight a non-existent abuse of those rights, it belittles that declaration too.

If you are going to claim that your human rights are being abused, please make sure that they really are!
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by SYH » Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:10 pm

Dawie wrote:I have no objection to Dave having a rant about something, even if it is based on incorrect assumptions.

However, in this case his ranting only serves to belittle the suffering of those families who are genuinely facing seperation because of Home Office visa policies. Not only that, but when people quote the Universal Declaration of Human Rights to highlight a non-existent abuse of those rights, it belittles that declaration too.

If you are going to claim that your human rights are being abused, please make sure that they really are!
I am bit more practical, let him claim HR issues, as he is so moved to believe that his rights are so infringed upon. I just think that all that time and effort he spent to set up a website could have been better spent on getting his wife's fluency up to speed.

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Post by joannedp » Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:23 pm

The test really only takes 5 minutes, and it took me all of 3 hours to read through the chapters 3 times. I wrote the test last week.

I did initially think that it was a load of rubbish, but I do believe that some of the information is actually useful. For eg. did you know that if you live in Scotland, then eye tests are free to everyone, but in England they are only free until you are 18, over 65 and on jobseekers allowance (I hope I got that right... ha ha)

I do think charging £34 is a bit much and selling the book for £10 is quite expensive, since it costs £3 to print.

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Post by John » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:41 pm

The test really only takes 5 minutes, and it took me all of 3 hours to read through the chapters 3 times.
No doubt you are from an English-speaking background, or have done an English language degree at university. But there are people out there whose study time needs to be well in excess of 3 hours, and where the test will take a lot longer than 5 minutes to complete.

Dave's wife is from Japan and accordingly will need lots more time than the 5 minutes and 3 hours. Nevertheless with study everyone putting in the effort can pass ..... the pass rate is actually about 80% ..... and probably many of the other 20% would have passed if sufficient study had been undertaken.
John

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Post by sakura » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:48 pm

joannedp wrote:The test really only takes 5 minutes, and it took me all of 3 hours to read through the chapters 3 times. I wrote the test last week.

I did initially think that it was a load of rubbish, but I do believe that some of the information is actually useful. For eg. did you know that if you live in Scotland, then eye tests are free to everyone, but in England they are only free until you are 18, over 65 and on jobseekers allowance (I hope I got that right... ha ha)

I do think charging £34 is a bit much and selling the book for £10 is quite expensive, since it costs £3 to print.
Rip-off Britain, hey!
But you are already fluent in English. His point is that his wife is not, and he doesn't think she can pass it after learning English for only two years. And that the fees are too high and it isn't fair that the spouse of a British tax-paying citizen has to undertake such a test AND pay crap loads of money to live here. And they are being persecuted as such. That's how I read it, anyway...

Well, I tried to reason with him (as "makked"...dunno why the second username).....but I guess he's hell bent on his agenda! He does have a point about the fees, though. And about how a person who is learning English from scratch would pass (esp. if they're here on a 2-year spouse visa).

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Post by avjones » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:28 pm

I do a lot of asylum law. So the word "persecuted" being used in this circumstance tends to annoy me a little.....
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

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Post by Wanderer » Tue Jul 24, 2007 12:49 am

English is quite easy as languages go - I know we like to think it's hard for Johnny Foriegner because the spelling is not regular but apart from the rather complex tenses it's actually not difficult, especially as it is the lingua-franca most places, on telly, music, radio.....

I did Russian, thta's a very difficult language, complex grammar everywhere. It's actually how I met my gf, and I do think language is important, I dunno how anyone can forge a meaningful relationship by speaking babytalk and pointing.

Just my opinion... ........
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

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Re: Protest against the life in the uk test

Post by mikki » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:57 am

I have been a lurker on this forum for some time but feel compelled to comment for the first time. Being Japanese myself, I cannot help thinking that Dave may be underestimating his wife’s ability to pass the test. As Dave seems to have met his wife in Japan and speaks the language, I assume their language of communication is Japanese. This is admirable. As the mother of a young baby your wife may not be able to go out much and you feel protective of her – but if I may say so your attitude is somewhat patronising.

Most Japanese people learn English for at least six years even if they don’t go to college or university. English language lessons in Japanese schools may not be the most practical in terms of learning to speak the language, but they are certainly taught to read and translate English and their grammar is often better than the native’s! Japanese are arguably the best educated and literate people in the world. But most Japanese are still shy, even your wife’s generation, and afraid of making mistakes when speaking in a foreign language. If you have lived in Japan I’m sure you appreciate this.

Does your wife actually feel she will not be ready to take the test in a year’s time? Have you thought if it might be due to Japanese modesty? I also found sample questions amusing and tested my British colleagues - with expected results! But as far as I understand the test does not involve any listening or speaking, which should suit most Japanese learners of English. It looks as if you can pass it by memorising facts, which is also good news for anyone who’s been through the Japanese education system.

You have made the decision to settle in the UK rather than Japan, so please give your wife a chance to enjoy the quality of life in her adopted country. I don’t believe the test requires any more than the level of English necessary to lead a normal life as a young, educated person in this country.

Immigration rules are full of irritations. I obtained British citizenship when all that was required was a British-born spouse. Since that time the Japanese nationality law has changed and my Japanese nationality is uncertain. I have never tried to find out where I stand since there hasn’t been any compelling reason. When I visit my family in Japan I have to queue anything up to one hour to be allowed into the country. As SYH rightly said - sometimes you just have to play the game.

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Post by sakura » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:13 am

Mikki.... yo koso! very good points. I also wondered whether or not she had studied English at all before moving here (I asked him on his site, too), unless she didn't finish HS or something. Or she's really really old and forgot all that she learnt by now...

It will be hard for her to adapt if she doesn't get out much. For one thing she's moved away from all family and (almost all) friends, so she needs to make new ones, etc. Other than your neighbours the best place would be a community group geared toward new immigrants (thus more tolerant of those who are [still] learning English). I might be SE England/London biased, but there are so many here and especially for mothers with young babies. Churches (regardless of one's religious persuasions) also host many mother + baby groups, but if that isn't one's scene, then there are other 'neutral' organisations. I know that if I moved to another country, whether the US or Japan, and would be living ther permanently (and I was in the OP's position of being a mother with a young child and learning the language), I would seek out my nearest community group.

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Post by avjones » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:48 am

"English language lessons in Japanese schools may not be the most practical in terms of learning to speak the language, but they are certainly taught to read and translate English and their grammar is often better than the native’s!"

If you are going to boast about Japanese grammar being better than the natives', get the apostrophe in the right place!
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

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Post by Wanderer » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:27 pm

avjones wrote:"English language lessons in Japanese schools may not be the most practical in terms of learning to speak the language, but they are certainly taught to read and translate English and their grammar is often better than the native’s!"

If you are going to boast about Japanese grammar being better than the natives', get the apostrophe in the right place!
I find it interesting having a foreign partner, especially a linguist like mine. We Brits do seem to have a high-handedness about the English Language when none of us know our subjunctives from our diminutives. I've still no idea about apostrophies, but I do now know 'whom' from 'who'!
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

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Re: Protest against the life in the uk test

Post by mikki » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:55 pm

avjones wrote:If you are going to boast about Japanese grammar being better than the natives', get the apostrophe in the right place!
I said "often" better, not "always" better. :wink:

Putting the apostrophe in the "right" place didn't look right at the end of a sentence followed by an exclamation mark, so I tried to use "the native" in the collective sense - but of course it isn't fair to suggest that all native speakers of English have the same level of understanding of English grammar.

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Post by Dawie » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:03 pm

I think that even if his wife had absolutely no knowledge of the English language whatsoever (highly unlikely as mikki pointed out) 2 years is plenty of time to learn a new language from scratch, ESPECIALLY if you are living the country that speaks the language and are COMPLETELY surrounded by people speaking that language every day.
In a few years time we'll look back on immigration control like we look back on American prohibition in the thirties - futile and counter-productive.

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Post by AlexCh » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:14 pm

John wrote: That of course depends upon English language ability. Whilst the test might be almost a non-event for those from an English language country .... USA, Australia etc etc ..... it is often rather difficult for those from a non-English language country.
I am not from English speaking country. :)

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Post by Wanderer » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:18 pm

AlexCh wrote:
John wrote: That of course depends upon English language ability. Whilst the test might be almost a non-event for those from an English language country .... USA, Australia etc etc ..... it is often rather difficult for those from a non-English language country.
I am not from English speaking country. :)
Neither am I, I'm from Bolton!
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Post by Christophe » Tue Jul 24, 2007 2:22 pm

The ease of the test (or the perceived ease of the test before it is attempted) will also depend, to an extent, on the person's experience of exams and the like: for someone who have gone through high school and tertiary education, it is likely to hold fewer terrors than it is for someone who has little - or no - experience of "sitting exams".

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Post by sakura » Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:41 pm

It's a shame Dave hasn't back come to check all our lovely messages!

But - he has changed his website! Now it is about the good, the bad, and the ugly of living in the UK: http://www.lifeuktest.co.uk/ I can understand that. So, it isn't much to do with the UK test (we won him over!?) or rip-off BIA fees, but generally all things you love or loathe (or just don't understand) about the UK.

Like huuuge potholes in the middle of the road. What is THAT about!? Bankrupt councils.. :x



(disclaimer: I'm not promoting/endorsing his website, just pointing out that it has changed)

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Post by avjones » Wed Jul 25, 2007 12:04 am

IME, the roads in the UK are pretty good, compared with almost everywhere else I've been!
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

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