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china spouse visa for uk

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bill40
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china spouse visa for uk

Post by bill40 » Sun Aug 12, 2007 5:45 pm

I have posted here once before and am now waiting for an AIT appeal. My wife's visa appeal was refused under paragraph 281(iii)of HC 395. now this refers to in my case i think sham marriage.

If i am being accused of committing a criminal offence can i demand to be tried in a court of law?

And second can i hold my accusers to account. My wife's visa was refused under the "marriage does not subsist" rule but i can find no case law where this has been applied to a uk (white, middle class, middle age person) citizen before.

i have read with outrage some the posters situations and i hope i do not come accross as naive to you. just like everybody else i am begging for help.

bill40

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Post by johnsienk » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:01 pm

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Post by johnsienk » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:06 pm

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Post by SYH » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:12 pm

johnsienk wrote:Hi.

First things first: I am amazed by the number of folks seemingly coming here for (possibly life changing) information that provide little (if any) information regarding their particular case. Sorry, had to get if off my chest...

Now. I am curious about your case (not least becaue my wife is Chinese, we got married in the UK, and I am a EU national).

What nationality are you? If you are not a Brit, what type of visa are you on? Is your partnet in the UK? What visa is she on? How did you meet (sorry, relevant) How long have you known each other? More about the reasons for refusal? Just some of the question that come to my mind...
It happens all the time
I call it pulling teeth for info

bill40
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Post by bill40 » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:23 pm

crikey! i am a uk national and my wife is in China. We met on the internet in January 2006. I was lucky enough to meet my wife in October 2006 and we had a full traditional chinese wedding in February 2007. I have not felt my wife's embrace for nearly six months now.

However during our courtship i was forced to postpone my trip to china several times, owing to work pressure, during which time she gave up on me and applied for a visitors visa to Germany which was refused, no reason given as they dont have to.

My wife told only the truth to the Entry Clearance Officer and made it plain that if the visa had been granted i would have been history had it worked out betwen them. i selfishly thank god that visa was refused.

but because of this the ECO refuses to accept the marriage subsists despite the fact we chat daily on msn and representations from my MP and MEP have fallen on deaf ears.

I am in that horrible middle road of not being able to affford a lawyer and i do not qualify for legal aid. I am also arguing over no case of law law but the ECO's opinion and nothing else.

what can i say at the appeal?

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Post by Wanderer » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:27 pm

bill40 wrote:crikey! i am a uk national and my wife is in China. We met on the internet in January 2006. I was lucky enough to meet my wife in October 2006 and we had a full traditional chinese wedding in February 2007. I have not felt my wife's embrace for nearly six months now.

However during our courtship i was forced to postpone my trip to china several times, owing to work pressure, during which time she gave up on me and applied for a visitors visa to Germany which was refused, no reason given as they dont have to.

My wife told only the truth to the Entry Clearance Officer and made it plain that if the visa had been granted i would have been history had it worked out betwen them. i selfishly thank god that visa was refused.

but because of this the ECO refuses to accept the marriage subsists despite the fact we chat daily on msn and representations from my MP and MEP have fallen on deaf ears.

I am in that horrible middle road of not being able to affford a lawyer and i do not qualify for legal aid. I am also arguing over no case of law law but the ECO's opinion and nothing else.

what can i say at the appeal?
Sorry mate but to clarify:

Are you saying your wife applied for German Visa to meet a guy there and if she'd got it you'd be history?

While married to you?
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

bill40
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Post by bill40 » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:34 pm

no this was before we married she thought with good reason i was a time waster. i have to admit i also had a plan b. the internet is great but until you physically meet someone you can never know if it is right.

i have neither the time or the money to travel to china on a regular basis so if we were wrong i would simply move on as would she. there are always multiple people you chat with on the internet but we chose each other and crave to be together. it felt right the moment we met and it also seemed fate played its hand too.

Qian Li, my wife, is very traditional and has known (in the biblical sense) no man outside marriage.

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Post by Wanderer » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:45 pm

bill40 wrote:no this was before we married she thought with good reason i was a time waster. i have to admit i also had a plan b. the internet is great but until you physically meet someone you can never know if it is right.

i have neither the time or the money to travel to china on a regular basis so if we were wrong i would simply move on as would she. there are always multiple people you chat with on the internet but we chose each other and crave to be together. it felt right the moment we met and it also seemed fate played its hand too.

Qian Li, my wife, is very traditional and has known (in the biblical sense) no man outside marriage.
Hmm, sorry mate but I'd have gone with the ECO based on what you've told us - she seems to be looking for a passport to the West.

Whilst that may not be true, only you and she know, it does seem like that to the outside observer.

So you should really concentrate and providing cast iron proof of the strength of your relationship, and try and bury the negative parts if you can. Would have been better had they not surfaced tho....

With regard to time and money, international dating is freaking costly, and if you couldn't afford it you shouldn't have done it.

I'm guessing you've only met once? If so well I'm sorry that's just plain daft, would you marry a girl from the next street after meeing her once?

MSN chatting doesn't count, that's frivalous crap, even telephone calls are worth little.

Do you speak Chinese? Does she speak English?

Sorry if I seem to be getting at you but folks here know this is my bugbear topic...Bring on the 3k visa for Prospective Partners....
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

bill40
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Post by bill40 » Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:53 pm

thank you for that but...
her english improves almost daily i have little ability for languages. we met twice once to see if we were an "item and once again to marry. and yes given the opportunity we would have married in the same time scale regardless. i amm 44 she is 38 so there is no case of trophy wife here.

she also owns her own home and has more assets than i do

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Post by Wanderer » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:04 pm

bill40 wrote:thank you for that but...
her english improves almost daily i have little ability for languages. we met twice once to see if we were an "item and once again to marry. and yes given the opportunity we would have married in the same time scale regardless. i amm 44 she is 38 so there is no case of trophy wife here.

she also owns her own home and has more assets than i do
I'll take a low profile on this one, I think.

I personally could not marry or even get close to someone I couldn't converse with. I met my partner on the internet, but I wasn't looking for love, I was looking to improve my Russian and my perception of Russian literature. Things for us grew out of that but as her English is superb we've always been able to converse fully and more importantly talk about things in a deep and meaningful way.

I had the company of one her Russian friends here in the UK recently on a visitor visa, pretty soon. 'hello', 'pretty cars' and 'many of house' wore very thin...

Like I say, better lie low on this, this is immgration not relationships!

Good luck mate
An chéad stad eile Stáisiún Uí Chonghaile....

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Post by SYH » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:12 pm

Wanderer wrote:
bill40 wrote:thank you for that but...
her english improves almost daily i have little ability for languages. we met twice once to see if we were an "item and once again to marry. and yes given the opportunity we would have married in the same time scale regardless. i amm 44 she is 38 so there is no case of trophy wife here.

she also owns her own home and has more assets than i do
I'll take a low profile on this one, I think.

I personally could not marry or even get close to someone I couldn't converse with. I met my partner on the internet, but I wasn't looking for love, I was looking to improve my Russian and my perception of Russian literature. Things for us grew out of that but as her English is superb we've always been able to converse fully and more importantly talk about things in a deep and meaningful way.

I had the company of one her Russian friends here in the UK recently on a visitor visa, pretty soon. 'hello', 'pretty cars' and 'many of house' wore very thin...

Like I say, better lie low on this, this is immgration not relationships!

Good luck mate
Times have changed haven't they. Many cultures you do not meet, it is arranged so the internet is not too far from that. I personally don't have a problem or find it strange this manner of meeting and wanting to marry someone, however as you point it, it is immigration you have to convince. Tadah

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Post by bill40 » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:33 pm

why do you think we cant converse? all it takes is a little extra patience. and why do EU nationals seem to have more rights than i do as a Uk national. i am only asking.

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Post by Wanderer » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:43 pm

bill40 wrote:why do you think we cant converse? all it takes is a little extra patience. and why do EU nationals seem to have more rights than i do as a Uk national. i am only asking.
Well you can't! Unless it's baby talk. You sound like a simpleton to her and she the same with you.

It's my opinion only but I want to speak about deep inner feelings, childhood events causing possible adult issues, you need language for that.

And not only language, culture. How can you express cultural differences while soundig like a moron to the other person?

You cannot know a person without language. Again, my opinion...

I think by EU rights you mean exercising of treaty rights and EEA family permit. I too struggled with this one, my reasoning for it is:

1. It's basically for those EU citizens who find themselves in a realtionship with a non-EU national whilst working (or whatever) in another EU state.

Let's say, for example, you where working in Germany. You met a Chinese national studying there and fell in love. what can u to immigration-wise? Well u cant use UK rules, cos ur not in UK, so the EU rules apply. Which are less strict that ours, but shit happens.
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Post by SYH » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:50 pm

Wanderer wrote:
bill40 wrote:why do you think we cant converse? all it takes is a little extra patience. and why do EU nationals seem to have more rights than i do as a Uk national. i am only asking.
Well you can't! Unless it's baby talk. You sound like a simpleton to her and she the same with you.

It's my opinion only but I want to speak about deep inner feelings, childhood events causing possible adult issues, you need language for that.

And not only language, culture. How can you express cultural differences while soundig like a moron to the other person?

You cannot know a person without language. Again, my opinion...

I think by EU rights you mean exercising of treaty rights and EEA family permit. I too struggled with this one, my reasoning for it is:

1. It's basically for those EU citizens who find themselves in a realtionship with a non-EU national whilst working (or whatever) in another EU state.

Let's say, for example, you where working in Germany. You met a Chinese national studying there and fell in love. what can u to immigration-wise? Well u cant use UK rules, cos ur not in UK, so the EU rules apply. Which are less strict that ours, but shit happens.
Actually whatever country you are citizen of whether in the uk or europe, it is harder to bring a partner in than if they were residing in a country other than the country of citizenship
Last edited by SYH on Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by John » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:50 pm

bill40, are you intending to have professional representation at the appeal hearing? I make that comment because you are clearly floundering about the appeal process, and what happens at the appeal hearing.

Clearly you are aggrieved by the decision of the ECO ..... but you need to be positive here and ensure that the best case is made at the appeal hearing. Have you got an appeal hearing date yet? If so how long have you got to go?

Any chance you going to visit your wife in China before the appeal hearing date? Such a visit could only help your case, or put it another way, a lack of visit after all these months starts not to look good.
John

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Post by bill40 » Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:05 pm

this is my situation. i have a choice, blow all the mad money i have on lawyers or represent myself so i can at least visit china while i wait for the next step of appeal for i will never give up.

can anybody here answer my questions? 1) what is it the appeal board want to hear from me 2) which other uk citizen has been accused of a sham marriage, what happened? and 3) as i am being accused of a criminal offence how can i hold my accusers accountable?

any answers will be gratefully acknowledged.

bill40
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Post by bill40 » Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:05 pm

this is my situation. i have a choice, blow all the mad money i have on lawyers or represent myself so i can at least visit china while i wait for the next step of appeal for i will never give up.

can anybody here answer my questions? 1) what is it the appeal board want to hear from me 2) which other uk citizen has been accused of a sham marriage, what happened? and 3) as i am being accused of a criminal offence how can i hold my accusers accountable?

any answers will be gratefully acknowledged.

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Post by SYH » Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:17 pm

bill40 wrote:this is my situation. i have a choice, blow all the mad money i have on lawyers or represent myself so i can at least visit china while i wait for the next step of appeal for i will never give up.

can anybody here answer my questions? 1) what is it the appeal board want to hear from me 2) which other uk citizen has been accused of a sham marriage, what happened? and 3) as i am being accused of a criminal offence how can i hold my accusers accountable?

any answers will be gratefully acknowledged.
You cant hold your accusers accountable, as they arent charging you with a crime, although if you got the visa, and they determined you were in a sham marriage, I guess they could charge you with something. Anyway, it is a procedural denial basis so I am not sure what you are looking for with holding them accountable for something. I suggest you move on with any issues of outrage you have and try to deal with the situaton as john suggests if you want to have any success

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Post by johnsienk » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:05 pm

<original post deleted>
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Post by nonothing » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:13 pm

i'm chinese too. sorry mate hearing your story.

from your posts, it does look she's trying to get a visa to the west. she was dating different guys from the west in different countries on the internet. she was happy to marry you even if you guys have only met once.

you say she's very traditional. but a traditional chinese woman dosen't do above things.

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Post by nonothing » Sun Aug 12, 2007 9:14 pm

sorry for multiple posting.
Last edited by nonothing on Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by SYH » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:13 pm

nonothing wrote:i'm chinese too. sorry mate hearing your story.

from your posts, it does look she's trying to get a visa to the west. she was dating different guys from the west in different countries on the internet. she was happy to marry you even if you guys have only met once.

you say she's very traditional. but a traditional chinese woman dosen't do above things.
what do you mean they don't do these things.
Arranged marriage is very traditional, this is what it amounted to.

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Post by bill40 » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:47 pm

does anybody here know anything? any case law, any experience? any bloody anything?

do you actually achieve anything other than wallow in someone else's misery. what bit of the word help dont you understand?

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Post by Wanderer » Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:02 am

bill40 wrote:does anybody here know anything? any case law, any experience? any bloody anything?

do you actually achieve anything other than wallow in someone else's misery. what bit of the word help dont you understand?
We're not experts, if you want one of those then u pay for it.

We are merely people who have been though this quagmire called immigration, either ourselves or our partners.

We do have real world experience, but cannot help in ur case, cos u've married a person u cannot possibly know, u cannot converse with without pointing, and who u've only met twice. Get real mate, if u love her go to China and live there, jump through the hoops.

With ECO decisions really u've got little chance, especially with a case so flimsy as yours. They live in a quasi-illegal world of Supreme Power Over Peoples Lives, but, to be honest, they sniff out a rat pretty well.

Mostly.
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Post by jimquk » Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:47 am

Hi

Sorry about your situation, which is however all to common. The ECO is perfectly entitled, and in fact it's his duty, to assess visa applications according to the immigration rules in force at the time, which are made in line with legislation passed by Parliament. Outrage will not help you at the moment, especially as the facts of the your case strongly support the ECO's assessment.

You need to concentrate on trying to win your appeal, and on working out what to do if - as I'm afraid looks likely - your appeal fails. Demanding to stand trial, or trying to accuse the authorities, is simply a complete waste of time and energy which would be better spent elsewhere. Because of parnoia about immigration, British citizens long ago surrendered their right to marry and bring in foreign partners unless specific conditions were fulfilled. So you best try to find a way of fulfilling those conditions.

You are going to need to demonstrate the reality of your relationship. This will mean visits to China, or ideally even living there. I might say that this would not only show your and her commitment to the marriage, but also give you the opportunity to really get to know her, her family, language, and culture. It also means thinking long-term. It might take several years to get her over here. Are you both prepared to wait that long? If the answer is no, then you know what that means.

I'm not wanting to sound negative, but if you want to make this work, it's likely to involve some really big decisions.

Good luck.
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