Travel to Switzerland

[gpm468]

My Jamaican wife was recently granted a 2.5 year UK spouse visa and we live together in UK. We want to visit Switzerland (via Zurich airport), but I'm unsure of the visa requirement. I do know that:
- Jamaican citizens would normally need a visa to visit Switzerland
- regardless of whether she has a UK visa and is legally resident here, she has the right to travel with me to EU countries under the treaty rights, so we could say fly to Basel, exit to France, then take a train into Switzerland

Anyway I'm sure there will be a fixed view of immigration officials at Zurich (and airline boarding staff) - does anyone know what the rules are?

[Casa]

Your wife will have to apply for a Schengen visa.

[gpm468]

Ok so if we go direct to Zurich she needs a Schengen visa issued by Switzerland.

Given this from the French Consulate website
The foreign spouse of a EU national enter France without visa if holding:
- A valid travel document;
- A valid UK residence permit with the endorsement "family member of EEA national"
- and if they are joining or travelling with the EU national

the alternative is travelling to France (e.g. Basel) then on to Switzerland? (assuming she gets a UK residence card*). Would she be breaking the law by crossing the border from France to Switzerland?

(*this leads me to another question which is I'm sure covered in other postings, because I believe treaty rights allow my wife to travel with me (a UK citizen/resident) without her necessarily being a UK resident or even having permission to enter the UK)

[Casa]

Ok so if we go direct to Zurich she needs a Schengen visa issued by Switzerland.

Given this from the French Consulate website
The foreign spouse of a EU national enter France without visa if holding:
- A valid travel document;
- A valid UK residence permit with the endorsement "family member of EEA national"
- and if they are joining or travelling with the EU national

the alternative is travelling to France (e.g. Basel) then on to Switzerland? (assuming she gets a UK residence card*). Would she be breaking the law by crossing the border from France to Switzerland?

(*this leads me to another question which is I'm sure covered in other postings, because I believe treaty rights allow my wife to travel with me (a UK citizen/resident) without her necessarily being a UK resident or even having permission to enter the UK)

I'm confused. Basel is in Switzerland. Why would you fly to Basel, exit to France and return to Switzerland? By the way, your wife doesn't hold "A valid UK residence permit with the endorsement "family member of EEA national". She has a UK visa.

[gpm468]

Basel airport is in France, but the import point is that you can exit the airport into France, close to the Swiss border.

The reason we might want to exit to France is that (as you stated) my wife would need to get a visa to travel direct from UK to Switzerland, but (as I understand it) we can travel from UK to France without a visa.

About the UK residence permit, for sure she doesn't hold one yet, but I assume that if she applies and gets one (at the cost of £65) it would state "family member of EEA national" which would fulfil the requirements on the French embassy website. Maybe I am wrong on this.

However, I am not sure why a residence permit would be needed anyway, as my understanding is that she has an automatic right to travel with me to any EU country (except UK) under treaty rights? (regardless of her country of residence)

[CR001]

She would need a Schengen visa for France too. Why do you think she does not need one for France but only for Switzerland?

https://france.visahq.co.uk/requirement ... d_Kingdom/

but I assume that if she applies and gets one (at the cost of £65)

She doesn't qualify for this residence card if you are British and you both are living in the UK under UK immigration law. This is applicable to EU citizens (excluding British citizens) who have non-EU spouses and use the EU Family Permit under the EU directive and the EU citizen exercise treaty rights in the UK.

You cannot, as a British Citizen, exercise treaty rights in the UK.

[Casa]

I take your point about Basel airport. However CR001 has given you good advice. An airline in likely to refuse boarding without a Schengen visa as they won't take the risk of your wife being denied entry into either France or Switzerland. The carrier is liable to a fine if your wife is returned. Why go through the stress of having your holiday plans ruined when a Schengen visa will solve the problem?

[gpm468]

CR001 - thank you for clarifying about the residence card. But are you saying that if I were (say) Polish and had brought a non-EEA spouse to live in the UK, then I wanted to visit France, I wouldn't need a visa to travel UK>France. But if I'm a UK Citizen (because my wife does have a visa to live in the UK) I can't apply for a residence permit, and then I would need a visa to travel UK>France?? This would seem even more unfair/bizarre than the current treaty rights 'rules'!!

BUT... don't the treaty rights allow me (as UK Citizen and resident) to travel to any EU country (except UK) with my wife, requiring only her valid travel document (passport) and proof of our marriage? The fact that she is currently a UK resident and visa holder doesn't take away this right?

Casa - Indeed I wouldn't expect an airline to allow boarding to a flight to Switzerland as it's not EU, but surely they have to allow boarding if we satisfy the treaty rights requirements for travel to an EU country?

I do accept that it's not that difficult to get a Schengen visa, but I am not sure why I should have to in order to travel to France - we're hoping to go there also at some point (and not en-route to Switzerland!)

[CR001]

BUT... don't the treaty rights allow me (as UK Citizen and resident) to travel to any EU country (except UK) with my wife, requiring only her valid travel document (passport) and proof of our marriage? The fact that she is currently a UK resident and visa holder doesn't take away this right?

I think you are confusing the freedom of movement within the EU with treaty rights. You can only exercise treaty rights by working, studying or proving self sufficient when you move to another EU state. Holidays are not included in treaty rights for the purpose you are asking about.

Casa - Indeed I wouldn't expect an airline to allow boarding to a flight to Switzerland as it's not EU, but surely they have to allow boarding if we satisfy the treaty rights requirements for travel to an EU country?

For the purpose of the Schengen Agreement, Switzerland is indeed part of the EU. She will need a Schengen visa for both France and Switzerland. No, the airlines do not have to allow boarding and they would be well within their rights to refuse your wife to fly.

CR001 - thank you for clarifying about the residence card. But are you saying that if I were (say) Polish and had brought a non-EEA spouse to live in the UK, then I wanted to visit France, I wouldn't need a visa to travel UK>France.

The advise would be the same, to avoid delays and problems traveling, if the non-EU spouse would usually require a Schengen visa, it would be safer to apply for it rather than risk refusal to board an aircraft.

[Casa]

This is the official advice from the French authorities:
- A valid UK residence permit with the endorsement "family member of EEA national" (this endorsement is compulsory to be visa exempted);
Also; Note that children and parents of EU Nationals still require visas to travel to France. It’s also the case for the spouses of British citizens as their residence permit does not bear the endorsement " family member of EEA national" as required by the art. 10 of the European Council/Parliament Directive 2004/38 CE.

As CR001 has already advised, your wife is not able to apply for a Residence Permit as she here under UK rules and not EEA regulations.
At the end of the day, it's your call whether you take the risk and attempt to travel without a Schengen visa for your wife.

[gpm468]

OK it seems even more confusing now (although the points are mainly academic for me now). And apologies that the subject of discussion has drifted off-topic to 'travel to France'.

So this is my understanding from what people on this topic have written (I will use 'spouse' as shorthand for family member):

1) A non-EEA national cannot apply for a UK residence card if they already hold a visa to reside in the UK (although the relevant pages on http://www.gov.uk do not seem to state or imply this)
2) UK residence cards are issued routinely to non-EEA spouses of EEA (non-UK) citizens/residents coming to live in the UK
3) The only circumstances a non-EEA spouse of a UK citizen can apply for a UK residence card is if they have entered the UK (without a visa) on the 'Surinder Singh' route following the UK spouse settling in another EEA country and then returning to UK
4) UK residence cards do not state 'family member of EEA national' (does anyone know why not?) and therefore do not satisfy the criteria on the French consular website for non-visa entry to France

However, aside from all the points above, I am still unsure why I can't travel to France with my non-EEA spouse under Treaty Rights? I know there is still ignorance of the rules amongst some staff but fundamentally it is allowed, and so upon explanation, my wife should not be refused boarding of a flight or entry into France?

[Wanderer]

OK it seems even more confusing now (although the points are mainly academic for me now). And apologies that the subject of discussion has drifted off-topic to 'travel to France'.

So this is my understanding from what people on this topic have written (I will use 'spouse' as shorthand for family member):

1) A non-EEA national cannot apply for a UK residence card if they already hold a visa to reside in the UK (although the relevant pages on http://www.gov.uk do not seem to state or imply this)
2) UK residence cards are issued routinely to non-EEA spouses of EEA (non-UK) citizens/residents coming to live in the UK
3) The only circumstances a non-EEA spouse of a UK citizen can apply for a UK residence card is if they have entered the UK (without a visa) on the 'Surinder Singh' route following the UK spouse settling in another EEA country and then returning to UK
4) UK residence cards do not state 'family member of EEA national' (does anyone know why not?) and therefore do not satisfy the criteria on the French consular website for non-visa entry to France

However, aside from all the points above, I am still unsure why I can't travel to France with my non-EEA spouse under Treaty Rights? I know there is still ignorance of the rules amongst some staff but fundamentally it is allowed, and so upon explanation, my wife should not be refused boarding of a flight or entry into France?

You're confusing two different immigration routes. EU rules on immigration were brought in for those EU citizens who cannot use their native state's immigration laws (because they don't live there) nor their local immigration laws (they are not German, French, whatever) so the EU device these rules for such people caught this this.

In the spirit of EU'ness these rules are more favourable for travel in EU and also cost - completely free.

You are firmly stuck on UK rules with no such concessions. Your wife cannot travel visa free under treaty rights because you have not and are not exercising a treaty right.

Airline staff have a duty to board only people who have the correct visas etc, otherwise their employers risk stiff fines so naturally they err on the side of caution, but at the end of the day its up to you; do you want a relaxing holiday or a battle with bureaucracy all the way....

[Casa]

I don't feel I strayed from the topic. I posted the official guidance from the French authorities as your post suggested that you were intending to enter French territory (without a Schengen visa) and then hop over into Switzerland, again hoping that the absence of a Schengen visa would not be challenged.
As I suggested, you may be lucky, you may be not. Airline staff, especially those employed as check-in staff by budget carriers are unlikely to be fully briefed on EEA directives. My husband (now with BC) has experienced problems returning from Spain with an ILR visa, due to the lack of knowledge by EasyJet staff. He'd correctly entered Spain on a Schengen visa but the airline were reluctant to let him travel home. I write this to demonstrate how ignorance by staff can disrupt travel. As Wanderer has wisely said, is it worth the risk when a Schengen visa is free?
Unless of course you want to make a stand for what you believe should be your right.
To answer your points:
1. Correct
2. Yes if all criteria is met
3. Correct
4. Correct. Spouse settlement is under UK Rules, not EEA Regulations and a visa is issued, not an EU residence permit.

[gpm468]

Actually I meant I strayed from the topic, because I'm now asking about travel to France (or any other EU country) not Switzerland. Let's forget Switzerland and just cover travelling to France (which we also want to do, as a separate trip).

Wanderer wrote: "Your wife cannot travel visa free under treaty rights because you have not and are not exercising a treaty right."

My question is, why would I not be (or why cannot I) exercise a treaty right? (as a UK citizen/resident, travelling to France with my non-EU spouse). My understanding was this is simply an automatic right - I can travel within the EU with my spouse. At the border we show her valid Jamaican passport (with no requirement of any type of visa) and our marriage certificate, and we are allowed entry to France? Are you saying this right is lost due to the presence of a UK visa in her passport?

[vinny]

See also No visa but still want to travel?

[ALKB]

Ok so if we go direct to Zurich she needs a Schengen visa issued by Switzerland.

Given this from the French Consulate website
The foreign spouse of a EU national enter France without visa if holding:
- A valid travel document;
- A valid UK residence permit with the endorsement "family member of EEA national"
- and if they are joining or travelling with the EU national

the alternative is travelling to France (e.g. Basel) then on to Switzerland? (assuming she gets a UK residence card*). Would she be breaking the law by crossing the border from France to Switzerland?

(*this leads me to another question which is I'm sure covered in other postings, because I believe treaty rights allow my wife to travel with me (a UK citizen/resident) without her necessarily being a UK resident or even having permission to enter the UK)

Half of Basel is actually in Germany

The train station for instance is in Germany but exiting you just cross the street and you are in Switzerland.

I'm confused. Basel is in Switzerland. Why would you fly to Basel, exit to France and return to Switzerland? By the way, your wife doesn't hold "A valid UK residence permit with the endorsement "family member of EEA national". She has a UK visa.