Baby on the way..

[Ben]

I've been lurking for some time now, posting here and there. Thought it was time to introduce myself, together with a quick question.

I'm an EEA citizen, my wife is non-EEA (though non-visa required). We arrived in Ireland on 30th November 2005, from our previous residence in a non-EEA country, into Cork airport. We told the immigration officer in the airport the truth, that we were migrating to Ireland to work for a friend of mine in his new business in Waterford. He stamped my wife's passport with a visitor's visa and wrote in reason for visit "join spouse". The visitor's visa was valid for 2 months.

In January 2006 we went up to the GNIB in Dublin, armed with our two passports plus our marriage certificate. There and then my wife was given Stamp 4, valid for one year. In July 2006 (conscious that applications are taking [allegedly] six months to process), we sent off EU1 and all required documents to the EU Treaty Rights section of the GNIB, in accordance with the then recent change in procedure, that is The European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) (No. 2) Regulations 2006. It took nine months, but the Stamp 4 renewal came through in March 2007 and this time it's valid for the full five years, in accordance with EU Directive 2004/38/EC. Off to Waterford Garda Station we went and my wife was given her new GNIB card, only this time it says Stamp4EUFam, rather than just Stamp 4 as per the previous card. Again, I believe this is in accordance with the then recent change in procedure.

During the application, the DoJ managed to lose my passport and my wife's birth certificate. Eventually, after much persuasion and escalation, someone looked for and found my passport and returned it. My wife's birth certificate, unfortunately, was never found. That said, the DoJ never even admitted that they lost it. They failed to respond to two letters (sent registered and signed for), my faxes or emails. I don't phone them anymore because I value my sanity. As far as the birth certificate goes, we've given up. What more could we possibly do to retrieve it?

Now, regarding the residency application. Note that my wife and I have never lived together before in another EEA country. Why did they permit our application and not other peoples'? Is it because we were fortunate enough to gain Stamp 4 at the GNIB office, back in Jan 2006, before The European Communities (Free Movement of Persons) (No. 2) Regulations 2006 came into effect on 1st January 2007, and thus when it came for renewal, it would be impossible to refuse it? This is only my theory here. It would be interesting to know if others in a similar position as ours have also been granted renewal of Stamp 4 status that was originally granted prior to 1st January 2007, and where the non-EEA dependent has not lived with the EEA citizen in another Member State.

My main question here, if anyone can help please, is as follows. My wife is due to give birth to our first baby in January 2008, a baby boy. The baby will be born in Ireland. We have decided that our child will carry the citizenship of his mother. The baby could, of course, also carry my citizenship, but due to my wife's country not allowing it's citizens to hold dual nationality, we've chosen my wife's non-EEA citizenship for our child. Question is, what is the procedure for legalising our baby's status here. Do we have to submit an EU1 application for our baby? Will our baby then hold a Stamp4EUFam GNIB card? Will they refuse it on the basis that our baby has not resided outside of Ireland, in another Member State? (I know the latter sounds ridiculous, but I wouldn't put anything past the DoJ). Can anyone advise? Thank you.

[JAJ]

My main question here, if anyone can help please, is as follows. My wife is due to give birth to our first baby in January 2008, a baby boy. The baby will be born in Ireland. We have decided that our child will carry the citizenship of his mother. The baby could, of course, also carry my citizenship, but due to my wife's country not allowing it's citizens to hold dual nationality, we've chosen my wife's non-EEA citizenship for our child.

What is your nationality and what nationality is your wife? You may be making incorrect assumptions about nationality for your child.

[archigabe]

My guess is that he holds a british passport. Another British/Asian couple also seem to have received the 5 year residence card.Seems that the Irish have a special status for British passport holders even if they don't satisfy Irish S.I 656

[JAJ]

My guess is that he holds a british passport. Another British/Asian couple also seem to have received the 5 year residence card.

If he is a British citizen then the Ireland born child will automatically be an Irish citizen.

But all this is speculation until he gives us the facts. It is amazing how many people ask questions like this without saying precisely what nationality they are. Impossible to give meaningful advice without this information.

[Ben]

What is your nationality and what nationality is your wife? You may be making incorrect assumptions about nationality for your child.

I'm British, spouse Singaporean. Both countries allow citizenship by decent, to one generation. Steps have already been taking by us to register Singapore citizenship for our son at Singapore's London Embassy (unfortunately there is no Singapore mission in Ireland). And JAJ is correct, our baby would indeed be also entitled to Irish citizenship by nature of his birth, in accordance with the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004. However, as stated, will have decided against this.

On account of Singapore not recognising dual citizenship, we will also not be obtaining a British passport for our son. Of course, not holding a British passport does not remove entitlement to the same, which could prove important for our son in years to come.

My guess is that he holds a british passport. Another British/Asian couple also seem to have received the 5 year residence card.Seems that the Irish have a special status for British passport holders even if they don't satisfy Irish S.I 656

archigabe, it's interesting what you say, that the Irish have a special status for British passport holders even if they don't satisfy Irish S.I 656. Could this be true? If so, the legality of this must surely be questionable.

Thanks for your replies.

[archigabe]

It's just a guess from the knowledge that the two british/asian couples on this forum got the full 5 year residency. I wouldn't be surprised if there's an unofficial policy not to offend British citizens as it could bring reprisals for the big irish community in the U.K...or it could be due to the historical connection between the two countries.

[JAJ]

I'm British, spouse Singaporean. Both countries allow citizenship by decent, to one generation. Steps have already been taking by us to register Singapore citizenship for our son at Singapore's London Embassy (unfortunately there is no Singapore mission in Ireland). And JAJ is correct, our baby would indeed be also entitled to Irish citizenship by nature of his birth, in accordance with the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004. However, as stated, will have decided against this.

On account of Singapore not recognising dual citizenship, we will also not be obtaining a British passport for our son. Of course, not holding a British passport does not remove entitlement to the same, which could prove important for our son in years to come.

You should understand that your child will be a British citizen (by descent) irrespective of what you "decide", assuming you were born or naturalised in the United Kingdom. Same goes for being an Irish citizen.

As far as I understand, Singapore will insist that he formally renounces any other citizenship held (ie, my making declarations under foreign law) to remain Singaporean as an adult, post age 21.

There are also Singapore's onerous National Service obligations to consider.

Most people I know of in a similar situation to yours do not try to get Singapore citizenship for their child. The reason for this is that Singapore is not all that "forgiving" towards former citizens - in other words, it is better not to ever have been a Singapore citizen compared to being an ex-citizen.

[Ben]

I'm British, spouse Singaporean. Both countries allow citizenship by decent, to one generation. Steps have already been taking by us to register Singapore citizenship for our son at Singapore's London Embassy (unfortunately there is no Singapore mission in Ireland). And JAJ is correct, our baby would indeed be also entitled to Irish citizenship by nature of his birth, in accordance with the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004. However, as stated, will have decided against this.

On account of Singapore not recognising dual citizenship, we will also not be obtaining a British passport for our son. Of course, not holding a British passport does not remove entitlement to the same, which could prove important for our son in years to come.

You should understand that your child will be a British citizen (by descent) irrespective of what you "decide", assuming you were born or naturalised in the United Kingdom. Same goes for being an Irish citizen.

As far as I understand, Singapore will insist that he formally renounces any other citizenship held (ie, my making declarations under foreign law) to remain Singaporean as an adult, post age 21.

There are also Singapore's onerous National Service obligations to consider.

Most people I know of in a similar situation to yours do not try to get Singapore citizenship for their child. The reason for this is that Singapore is not all that "forgiving" towards former citizens - in other words, it is better not to ever have been a Singapore citizen compared to being an ex-citizen.

Thanks for the advice JAJ. You are correct in all points. I am familiar with the British, Irish and Singapore citizenship laws and requirements. I was not aware of Singapore being somewhat unforgiving to former citizens, though. Good to note, thanks.

Back to the original question though, can anybody confirm that a non-EEA child born in Ireland must complete an EU1 application, just as any other non-EEA family member would? And what about the residency in another Member State condition?

[scrudu]

Archigabe: I dont believe it is as simple as that. I know of a British/Asian (him British, her Indian) couple who have recently been refused their EU1 application as they never resided in another EEA country.

I wonder whether it is different in this case as his wife is Singaporean, and therefore is not on the "visa required" list? R/E the 2 couples you knew who were granted a Stamp4EUFAM: What countries were the non-EU spouses from?

Jaj: Are you sure that under current laws the child would be entitled to Irish citizenship? His parents only moved to Ireland in 11/2005 (under 2 years ago). Since 2005, children born in Ireland are only entitled to Irish citizenship if they are the children of Irish citizens, or their parents have been residing in Ireland for the past 3 years. See http://www.mrci.ie/know_rights/legalsta ... idency.htm

If a child was born on the island of Ireland on or after 1 January 2005 their citizenship entitlement depends on the citizenship of the person's parents at the time of the person's birth. Since 1 January 2005, a child born to non-Irish national parents is only entitled to Irish citizenship if at least one parent has been legally resident in Ireland for a minimum of three out of the four years immediately preceding the child's birth. If a person is eligible they have to apply for citizenship, they do not get it automatically.

Persons born after 1st January 2005
An application for citizenship can be made if at the time of birth that person had a parent who was:
- an Irish citizen or entitled to be an Irish citizen
- A person who is not Irish but who has been legally resident in Ireland for 3 out of the 4 years immediately preceding the birth of their child
Note: time spent as asylum seeker, student or undocumented does not count You can apply to the Passport Office for an Irish passport for your child. You will need proof that you have been resident in Ireland for 3 out of the previous four years & a photocopy of your passport or record of residency from the GNIB.

[Ben]

Are you sure that under current laws the child would be entitled to Irish citizenship? His parents only moved to Ireland in 11/2005 (under 2 years ago). Since 2005, children born in Ireland are only entitled to Irish citizenship if they are the children of Irish citizens, or their parents have been residing in Ireland for the past 3 years. See http://www.mrci.ie/know_rights/legalsta ... idency.htm

The three years residency rule is correct, with the exception of British citizens. If either parent is a British citizen, there is no minimum residency requirement, on the basis that British citizens have an unrestricted right of residence in Northern Ireland.

For the same reason, even if both the child's parents were neither British nor Irish citizens, but happen to have an unrestricted right of residence in the UK (and thus Northern Ireland), the three year rule would also not apply.

Full info in the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act 2004.

[microlab]

Scrudu wrote

I wonder whether it is different in this case as his wife is Singaporean, and therefore is not on the "visa required" list? R/E the 2 couples you knew who were granted a Stamp4EUFAM: What countries were the non-EU spouses from?

Archie wrote

My guess is that he holds a british passport. Another British/Asian couple also seem to have received the 5 year residence card.Seems that the Irish have a special status for British passport holders even if they don't satisfy Irish S.I 656

Sorry benifa this is outside the topic but I have to answer.

We had a UK citizens here who were refused as well their EU partners were non visa nationals.I have looked through this forum,read countless number of pages and I can say for sure that there is no pattern.
If there is, only DOJ can answer that because they would have all data at hand.(I very much doubt that)

[JAJ]

Thanks for the advice JAJ. You are correct in all points. I am familiar with the British, Irish and Singapore citizenship laws and requirements. I was not aware of Singapore being somewhat unforgiving to former citizens, though. Good to note, thanks.

As far as I understand, it is possible to have dual Singapore/other citizenship as a child.

But herein lies the problem. Once you register your child as Singaporean then he is stuck with it. He can't renounce or lose it until he does his National Service.

If he wants to keep his British and Irish citizenship, then he is effectively forced to do Singapore NS even though he will lose Singapore citizenship straight afterwards. If he doesn't report for his NS then obviously Britain won't hand him over but being unable to enter Singapore without the prospect of arrest isn't really an "asset" in life either.

Once again. You really should think hard about what you may be letting your son in for before you register him as a Singapore citizen. If the plan is to live in Singapore later on, why not bring him in as a non-citizen on a Social/Visit pass?

Back to the original question though, can anybody confirm that a non-EEA child born in Ireland must complete an EU1 application, just as any other non-EEA family member would? And what about the residency in another Member State condition?

Your case is likely to be unique - they are unlikely to see many others where a child is an Irish citizen but the parents want an EEA stamp on a foreign passport.

[scrudu]

Benifa: if your child is an Irish citizen, I don't see why you would have to do anything to register him. According to http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/WP07000040

Every person born in the island of Ireland 3 is entitled to be an Irish citizen. If you were born anywhere in Ireland, it is open to you to choose to exercise that entitlement.

If you, as a person born in the island of Ireland do an act which only an Irish citizen is entitled to do (for instance, applying for an Irish passport), the law regards that as an exercise of your entitlement to be an Irish citizen, and you are accordingly an Irish citizen from birth. This also applies to persons not yet of full age (i.e. those still under 18 and not married) on whose behalf such an act is done.

If you were born in Ireland, the mere fact that you have not done (or if under age have not had done on your behalf) such an act does not on its own mean that you are not an Irish citizen. Nor does it mean that you are presumed to be a citizen of another country.

[archigabe]

Hi Scrudu,
there was another couple on this board a while ago who were British/Japanese.They also received the 5 year residency even though they had not lived in europe before.Seems it's like a lottery whether you get the residency.

[Ben]

As far as I understand, it is possible to have dual Singapore/other citizenship as a child.

But herein lies the problem. Once you register your child as Singaporean then he is stuck with it. He can't renounce or lose it until he does his National Service.

If he wants to keep his British and Irish citizenship, then he is effectively forced to do Singapore NS even though he will lose Singapore citizenship straight afterwards. If he doesn't report for his NS then obviously Britain won't hand him over but being unable to enter Singapore without the prospect of arrest isn't really an "asset" in life either.

This is correct. My brother was in this very situation. He was a Singapore and British citizen, but did not keep strong ties to Singapore throughout his childhood. He also never lived in Singapore. As a result, at the age of 18, my brother had little interested in Singapore and certainly no interest in entering in to National Service. He did not enter Singapore for two and a half years for fear of being arrested. My brother now only holds a British passport.

Once again. You really should think hard about what you may be letting your son in for before you register him as a Singapore citizen.

JAJ, once again, I really appreciate your input here, but this is not the info I'm requesting. I do not need to be told to think long and hard about what I may be letting my son in for with regards to his citizenship. As I've said, I am familiar with the citizenship laws of Ireland, Singapore and the UK. So it might be best if we can put that off-topic issue to bed.

If the plan is to live in Singapore later on, why not bring him in as a non-citizen on a Social/Visit pass?

Are you referring to the Long Term Social Visit Pass (LTSVP)? This pass provides no long-term right of residency or access to education or employment. It is simply a long-term holiday visa.

Benifa: if your child is an Irish citizen, I don't see why you would have to do anything to register him.

Because he will not be an Irish citizen forever.

When my son completes his National Service in Singapore at the age of 18, he will have to then formally renounce any and all citizenship other than that of Singapore.

So, imagine this: My son lives all his life in the Ireland, under the status of British / Irish citizen. When he has to renounce these citizenships at 18, he will be a non-EEA citizen. If he wishes to continue residing in Ireland after his completion of NS, he may have a problem, especially if my wife and I are no longer in Ireland by then (we may at that time by living in Singapore). This is why I want my son to be treated by the DoJ as a non-EEA family member from birth. My assumption is that we would need to apply for him using form EU1. At the age of five, we would then apply for permanent residency using form EU3. My son would then be a non-EEA citizen with permanent residence in Ireland, so renunciation of Irish / British citizenship will have little effect on him as far as residency in Ireland is concerned.

Your case is likely to be unique - they are unlikely to see many others where a child is an Irish citizen but the parents want an EEA stamp on a foreign passport.

You may be right here JAJ. I think the uniqueness of this case is the bottom line. We shall apply using form EU1 when the time comes. I'll then resurrect this thread and post the outcome.

Finally, thank you to everybody for your valuable replies on this issue.

[archigabe]

The irish government seems incapable of handling even straightforward cases, so I think there's going to be a lot of unnecessary complications for your son in the future.

[scrudu]

Sorry, off topic again:

Hi Scrudu,
there was another couple on this board a while ago who were British/Japanese.They also received the 5 year residency even though they had not lived in europe before.Seems it's like a lottery whether you get the residency.

That would fit in with my suggestion. Both Japanese and Singaporeans are on the Schedule 1 list (Classes of non-nationals not required to be in possession of a valid Irish visa when landing in the State), so do not require a visa to enter Ireland. Perhaps this is the distinction that gets them the 5 year residency permit (4EUFAM) without prior residence in another EEA country?

Benifa: Back to your last point. Sorry but I am confused by your posts and you plan. I'm not trying to get at you, but it seems you have decided that your son will be a Singaporean, but you plan to live in Ireland for the next whatever many years, until such time as you and your wife may/may not move to Singapore. Why do you think it is better for him to be a non-EEA from birth? If he is living in Europe, surely it's better for him to be an EEA citizen? This will mean he can freely travel throughout Europe (and easily to most other countries with an Irish/British passport), rather than holding a Singaporean passport and only Irish Residency. As an Irish/British citizen he will have access to free (or EU subsidised) University education. If your son decides at 18 he'd prefer to stay in Ireland where he grew up, as a Singaporean he would have to pay International Student fees.

There are other benefits to being an Irish/British citizen while living in Ireland, such as voting rights etc. It's up to you, but personally I'd choose for the EU citizenship until your son decides that he does actually wish to be a Singaporean.

[JAJ]

When my son completes his National Service in Singapore at the age of 18, he will have to then formally renounce any and all citizenship other than that of Singapore.

So, imagine this: My son lives all his life in the Ireland, under the status of British / Irish citizen. When he has to renounce these citizenships at 18, he will be a non-EEA citizen. If he wishes to continue residing in Ireland after his completion of NS, he may have a problem, especially if my wife and I are no longer in Ireland by then (we may at that time by living in Singapore). This is why I want my son to be treated by the DoJ as a non-EEA family member from birth. My assumption is that we would need to apply for him using form EU1. At the age of five, we would then apply for permanent residency using form EU3. My son would then be a non-EEA citizen with permanent residence in Ireland, so renunciation of Irish / British citizenship will have little effect on him as far as residency in Ireland is concerned.

What if your son doesn't want to renounce his British and Irish citizenship? You will not be able to force him to decide in favour of Singapore citizenship.

Two other things to bear in mind:

1. I'd need to check the 2004 Act but it may well be the case that those living in the Republic of Ireland cannot renounce Irish citizenship.

2. Entitlement to permanent residence under the EEA rules expires after 2 years away, normally. In any case, these rules may not exist in 18 years time.

[microlab]

Sorry again!
Two simultaneous topics.
Guys, as I said before there is no pattern.

Birdy wrote@

# EU-Country of worker: U.K.
# Non-EEA country of spouse: U.S.A.
# Date of application for residence card for spouse: September 28th 2006
# Approved, Denied, or Pending: Refused 22nd May 2007

How can you explain this then?

[megmog]

yes there is no pattern -

me - british
husband -south african
applied - march 07

DENIED september 07

[Directive/2004/38/EC]

Good for you for applying for EU1! It will be an interesting experience at least, and your child always has their from-birth UK and Irish citizenship in the case that the Irish DOJ gets stroppy.

The decision about whether to apply for official confirmation of children's multiple citizenships is always an interesting one. Issues such as world wide taxation and military service are major considerations, as well as visa/entry restrictions.

[mktsoi]

Benifa: if your child is an Irish citizen, I don't see why you would have to do anything to register him.

Because he will not be an Irish citizen forever.

When my son completes his National Service in Singapore at the age of 18, he will have to then formally renounce any and all citizenship other than that of Singapore.

So, imagine this: My son lives all his life in the Ireland, under the status of British / Irish citizen. When he has to renounce these citizenships at 18, he will be a non-EEA citizen. If he wishes to continue residing in Ireland after his completion of NS, he may have a problem, especially if my wife and I are no longer in Ireland by then (we may at that time by living in Singapore). This is why I want my son to be treated by the DoJ as a non-EEA family member from birth. My assumption is that we would need to apply for him using form EU1. At the age of five, we would then apply for permanent residency using form EU3. My son would then be a non-EEA citizen with permanent residence in Ireland, so renunciation of Irish / British citizenship will have little effect on him as far as residency in Ireland is concerned.

Your case is likely to be unique - they are unlikely to see many others where a child is an Irish citizen but the parents want an EEA stamp on a foreign passport.

You may be right here JAJ. I think the uniqueness of this case is the bottom line. We shall apply using form EU1 when the time comes. I'll then resurrect this thread and post the outcome.

Finally, thank you to everybody for your valuable replies on this issue. [/quote]

is there any non EU permanent residency in ireland? i think you better check this out. if you want to get a long term permit to live in the country. it is possible, but permanent? thats another story.

[Ben]

Well, my baby boy was born on 9th January and my wife and I have had a lot of time to contemplate the positive and negatives of my son's accession of multiple citizenships.

JAJ, Directive/2004/38/EC, scrudu, archigabe and others all made some very interesting points which gave us a lot to think about.

The outcome is that we're going to take all three (British, Irish and Singaporean), and we've just received his Singapore citizenship certificate and passport today. Applications for British and Irish passports are pending.

Meanwhile, I went today to our local GNIB office (Garda Station), and asked the question: my son has just been born to me (British citizen) and my wife (5 year Stamp 4 EUFam holder), and how do we go about regularising my son's status in Ireland, as he is holding a Singapore passport.

The officer asked me how long we'd lived in Ireland for, and I told him just over two years. He then told me that, "the rules changed about two or three years ago, and since you've lived in Ireland for less than three years, your son would not be entitled to an Irish passport." This is, of course, not only incorrect, it does not answer the question I asked him.

The officer advised me to apply for my son a British passport. I replied that Singapore does not allow dual citizenship for it's citizens (not exactly true for children under 21, but I didn't want to confuse the issue). He then told me, "Ah well, it doesn't matter anyway, since children under 16 are not subject to immigration control anyway. He'll be grand until he's 16, and after that he'll then have to apply for residency in Ireland as a Singapore citizen under his own merits".

Err, pardon? Under 16's are not subject to immigration control? At the age of 16 he's to apply for residency in Ireland as a Singapore citizen under his own merits? Are we just ignoring Directive 2004/38/EC exists now?

The mind boggles sometimes how the DoJ, GNIB and friends operate. Ironically, the same officer told me only a week or two ago (during a visit in relation to another family member of mine), that "The DoJ make the rules up as they go along". We all know that's true at least.

I'll apply to the DoJ using EU1 anyway. I only went in to the Garda Station for advice - wish I didn't bother.

On a side note and in the greater scheme of things, I can't see my son wanting to hold on to Singapore citizenship in any case, post the age of 21. I can foresee that, when the time comes, given the choice of being either a dual British / Irish citizen or giving up both of those in favor of Singapore citizenship only, I expect he shall choose the former (making this whole effort in vein anyway!). But, depending on future circumstances, he may choose Singapore citizenship. For this reason I want the DoJ to recognise my son's residency rights as my non-EEA family member under Directive 2004/38/EC. At least then if holding on to Singapore citizenship in favor of the other two is my son's future choice, he'll still able to live in Ireland, permanently.

[yankeegirl]

No advice, but many congratulations to you and your wife on the arrival of your new son!!

[Ben]

No advice, but many congratulations to you and your wife on the arrival of your new son!!

Thank you!!