Questions regarding Surinder Singh Route via EEA family perm

[SS queries]

Hi all,
I have a number of questions I’ve been struggling to find answers to regarding the Surinder Singh Route. I am from the UK and wish to bring my Thai wife and daughter into the UK, but don’t meet the financial requirements of over £18,600 per year, so I plan to use the Surinder Singh route via Ireland, but I still have reservations of how easy it is in practice. So my understanding is as follows:
1. Move to Ireland and find a job exceeding 12 hours a week. Apply for residence and seek accommodation with utility bills etc.
2. Apply for my wife to enter Ireland on a non-EEA spouse visa to Ireland (how difficult is this?).
3. Move my ‘centre of life’ there. i.e. learn the local language, engage in community, strengthen family life.
4. Live there for at least 3 months (I’m aiming for >6 months).
5. Apply for EEA family permit to bring wife back to England.

My daughter is 10 months old and I am going to register the birth abroad and apply for her passport as soon as I get back to England in a few weeks. Assuming that goes smoothly there should be no problems there. My queries, questions and concerns are as follows…

On the gov.uk website regarding EEA guidance it says the following regarding EEA family permits: that they last 6 months and that refusal can occur if maintenance and accommodation requirements aren’t met which may result in a recourse to public funds.

As I understand it this is for non-UK citizens that wish to bring their EEA family into the UK, but as a UK citizen that has then been a resident in Ireland with his non-EEA wife and daughter I can use this same EEA family permit to entitle me to bring my wife into the UK for 5 years without any proof of accommodation requirements or meeting any set financial requirements and don’t have to prove that there will be no recourse to public funds. Is this correct??

As I understand it I’m exercising my EU treaty rights to live (with my family) and work in another state and then bring them back under EU law as opposed to UK law. I don’t see this as a loophole as I am an EU citizen as well as a UK citizen, but does anyone have any idea if these rules will be strengthened by the UK government as they plan to renegotiate their position in the EU before the in/out referendum? From what I understand their hands are pretty much tied with regard to this.

So I’d like to confirm that the visa does actually grant 5 years and not 6 months and if so please explain why (if it’s possible without tons of technical jargon) and that there is no proof of adequate accommodation as is the case when applying via the normal UK immigration route. I believe I would have to provide a two bedroom flat for this, but our daughter is young and sleeps in the same bed at the moment. Also are the only financial requirements that you had a job in Ireland and not that you need x amount in the bank and a job/accommodation lined up for when you return. I will have these, but not that they would met standard UK immigration requirements.

My situation is that I would meet the UK requirements in approximately 2.5 years, but only just, I would earn approximately £21,500. I can see UK immigration rules also getting stricter, not to mention the approximate £5,000 total costs involved increasing above this mark (this includes beginning to end, biometric testing, ILR, visas, etc.). So does anyone have any opinions on this route in the meantime as I am dearly missing being with my family and don’t want to blow things on this option if it all goes wrong it’s more time and money down the drain.

Many, many thanks to those that have taken the time to read this and take the time to make useful contributions to the discussion.

[secret.simon]

Most of your queries have been answered in these forums. A search would have saved you time.

To begin with, an EEA Family Permit is the equivalent of a 6 month visit visa. The five year visa is a Residence Card.

Also see
Will Surinder singh route be available for next few years?

EEA2 Surinder Singh 3 Month Success Story

As regards the housing, you will need a house having one bedroom and one living room. Housing requirements are governed by the Housing Act 1985 and are independent of whether you are applying under the EEA Route or the UK Immigration Route.

[SS queries]

Thanks for clearing that up for me secret Simon. I can't help but think it is quite fortunate (or exceptionally well planned and executed) to manage this whole process in 3 months. There are others that have 8-10 weeks of waiting just for the Irish visa and long waits for the EEA family permit to stay the 6 months in Ireland which altthough isn't 100% necessary for applying for residence and entry to the UK I don't know I'd risk applying and then appealing.

My plan was to take a year out from my current university course, but it seems there are many more hurdles than appear at first glance with this route. Not least accommodation and securing a short or flexible contract and not being tied in. Also many people recommend at least 6 months living and working with the spouse in Ireland, perhaps my year window may even be quite tight. As from reading your posts you seem to have a great deal of knowledge on UK immigration could you offer your opinion. Provided I met the financial requirements in the future do you think UK immigration process for spousal entry and residence may be more straightforward in terms of being accepted? I do already know this option is expensive over the 5 years and there is tons of paperwork, but it seems to me if you meet the financial requirements and can prove you're a genuine couple then the applications should get accepted. P.s. my wife has a good standard of English, so that's not a concern.

Id really appreciate anyones input on this because i have a very limited amount of time to decide...

[Dirk]

I am doing Surrinder Singh now. It is a far more simple route than the spouse visa even without the earnings threshold.

You don't need the Family Permit any more. An Irish RC is avceptable for travel however the Common Travel Area between Britain and Ireland means in reality you could just go without either. You do not need an irish RC to apply for UK one and your status in the UK is irrelevant to an EEA FM application.

[SS queries]

That's really reassuring Dirk, seems too good to be true after having got so used to the idea of waiting years and years to be together! Thanks for providing that info, it's easy to find conflicting info on forums and as much as I have read the regulations the finer details seem vaguely worded (as it's case law presumably).

Is it an even easier method than even getting a visitor visa. If the EEA method wasn't permissible I was planning to apply for them to visit me in the UK using the standard visitor visa. Thing is she has zero savings and she had to give up her job when she was pregnant. I was planning for 3 months, i have savings of about £6000 to cover the visit, but they can refuse a millionaire in theory, if it's hard for them to believe she will return because we would have to prove she has something to go back for.

So really the big hurdle is finding employment for the SS route to work. I spoke to an agency and getting temp work is easy, but I'd read elsewhere that the work needs to be regular even if it is only over 12 hours a week. I do fancy that getting a job as a construction labourer or something may be fairly easy because I'd read that many Irish builders had left for Britain for higher wages. It was probably in something like the daily mail though haha, so not too sure about my source

So I've got another step to add to this. I have to register the birth of my daughter abroad and apply for her passport. I understand her first passport is dealt with quicker if you have first registered the birth abroad. Can you then use the express service? Also I've searched for waiting times for registering a birth abroad, but the guide accompanying the form has a hyperlink to the general page for registering the birth abroad on the UK website which DOES NOT have the info. Anyone have experience with this?

Thanks again for info, these forums are an invaluable help to people in this unfortunate position.

[SS queries]

So a few more technicalities to this. As I understand it the maximum amount of stay for the spouse on the initial visa is 90 days. The EU1 requires 2 pay slips from the EU citizen. Given that most require you to work a month in hand and it may take a while finding a job is it then advisable for the non-EU spouse to arrive a month or two afterwards?

But then this poses the challenge of having all the joint accounts and housing contract etc in her name as she would need to be there from the beginning for all this.

I've also read that one poster had to book a return flight to Ireland for her non-EU spouse as no airline would accept that he would not stay illegally. If I recall right he was South African. Do they hold this view of Thai citizens? And will her flying separately pose difficulties at Irish immigration?

Also the EU1 can (and it would seem quite often does) take 6 months to process. On the EU1 form it states they MAY and it has 'may' in bold issue some sort of extension whilst the application is processed. Are there ways to extend the initial visa before applying for the EU1 if you don't feel you have enough supporting evidence to apply before those first 3 months are up?

[Dirk]

I can't speak for the Irish system as we went through Spain but I do know an applicants existing legal status does not come into it.

Can I ask what is the nationality of your wife?

On passports, my child was born abroad and I applied for the passport abroad. It is a different fee and slightly different process to do it from abroad. If the child is not in the UK they might not let you apply for a passport in the UK because they would think its very strange that the child is abroad on you're registering for a passport from within the United Kingdom you should apply for it from outside the United Kingdom

[SS queries]

She's Thai, but to be honest we aren't married yet, we were planning to within the next few weeks whilst I'm visiting in Thailand. We didn't initially marry because there would be little point in being married and spending years apart anyway. Do you think it will or can cause problems getting an Irish visa being that we will be so recently married? I can provide other proof that I was working and living in Thailand previously and that we were in a relationship.

As far as registering the birth, it's registered with the Thai authorities i.e. getting an birth certificate and registering the birth abroad with the UK authorities makes it easier to get a UK passport. I should have probably done it sooner, but having previously spoken to the UK authorities there's no time limit for this. I think it should be relatively straightforward because it's my name on the birth certificate and my daughter has taken my surname. From looking at the forms it doesn't even appear you have to even prove a relationship with the mother for this stage.

As far as getting a passport isn't that one of the services that got streamlined all to the UK offices a couple of years ago?

[Dirk]

Registering the birth with the consulate is not a prerequisite for a passport and it will not affect how quickly you get it. You have yo apply for the passport by post from abroad from what I remember (I went to the passport office in Hong Kong in person but that has closed now). If you apply for a passport in the UK without the child present in the UK it raises questions like whether the counter signature is valid because the person signing that it is a true likeness could not have possibly seen the baby.

Is the Thai birth certificate bilingual? If it is just use that along with your UK birth certificate, wife's passport and the form to get a UK passport. If it isn't bilingual get a consular birth certificate. Thailand may have local laws on dual citizenship and may regard your child as a Thai citizen and refuse to let the baby leave on a UK passport. I am not sure about this but the UK Consulate will tell you if this is the case.

The only reason we got a British consular birth certificate at a cost of £200 when our daughter was 18 months is because we were told that in Spain they would only accept a UK birth certificate not a Chinese one. In the end that wouldn't have mattered anyway and it won't matter for you in Ireland.

My advice is get married asap, go to the Irish Embassy and apply for a C Visa, there is a special category for the family member of an EEA citizen who is planning to move to Ireland.

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/Fa ... 20citizens

It is free and usually a marriage certificate and a letter from you stating you are going to move to live in Ireland will do. When you are in Ireland apply for an Article 10 Residency Card, she will get a temp stamp in her passport while it is processing. Don't worry if the visa runs out before you get a stamp, it probably wont anyway but if it does it doesnt matter.

[SS queries]

Thanks for your help, so as I understand it isn't necessary to register the birth with the UK authorities and with the added time in this step won't speed up the overall process. Does anyone know as I have been British from birth with British parents/grandparents etc. should this whole process be quick? It appears some people have experienced waits of 6 months for their child's first passport abroad.

I'm currently in Thailand, but as I understand it we can do it from the UK embassy in Bangkok or the UK, but ultimately all applications now get processed in the UK so I was planning to do it from back home. A 6 month wait would ruin my chances of using the SS route and then returning to finish my degree next academic year, so are there ways beyond providing the required documents that will speed the process up? Would photos of us together help? Sounds ridiculous, but would a DNA test speed it up? Really couldn't afford to hang around for 6 months for a passport if I am to attempt this SS route...

I have daughter's and wife's certified translated birth certificates, my passport, should be able to get passport photos done here in next couple of days in which she doesn't need to be looking directly at camera as she's under one year. Countersignatary apparently has to have only known me for 2 years as she is a minor and has to be professional and live in the UK. I have someone in mind for this so is there anything else I've missed?

[SS queries]

Wow just went to pick up the certified translated copies in Hua Hin and was told that for a UK passport for my daughter I have to have a court order saying I'm responsible for the child as we aren't/weren't married when our daughter was born! This is news to me. Can anyone confirm this?

[logical_1]

Thanks for your help, so as I understand it isn't necessary to register the birth with the UK authorities and with the added time in this step won't speed up the overall process. Does anyone know as I have been British from birth with British parents/grandparents etc. should this whole process be quick? It appears some people have experienced waits of 6 months for their child's first passport abroad.

I'm currently in Thailand, but as I understand it we can do it from the UK embassy in Bangkok or the UK, but ultimately all applications now get processed in the UK so I was planning to do it from back home. A 6 month wait would ruin my chances of using the SS route and then returning to finish my degree next academic year, so are there ways beyond providing the required documents that will speed the process up? Would photos of us together help? Sounds ridiculous, but would a DNA test speed it up? Really couldn't afford to hang around for 6 months for a passport if I am to attempt this SS route...

I have daughter's and wife's certified translated birth certificates, my passport, should be able to get passport photos done here in next couple of days in which she doesn't need to be looking directly at camera as she's under one year. Countersignatary apparently has to have only known me for 2 years as she is a minor and has to be professional and live in the UK. I have someone in mind for this so is there anything else I've missed?

I'm not sure how long the passport application would take from Thailand but I recently applied for my daughter's passport here in Beijing and i got told that it would take upto 6 weeks.I submitted the Chinese birth certificate along with English translation and all the other required documents.I'm sure the only time you need to prove relationship through DNA testing is if the passport office has any doubts regarding your relationship.I'd say apply for the passport as soon as possible and then if the passpport office need any documents they will contact you.

[SS queries]

That's pretty sharpish logical1, my long birth certificate is back in the UK so I'll have to wait until I'm back in the UK before applying. This may perhaps call into question our relationship, but I'll put a couple of photos of us together when she was pregnant and of us as a family to reassure them. I think these very drawn out cases are normally when there is some documentation missing or the form filled out slightly wrong. In these cases I've seen quite a few people say they receive them literally a day before 6 months is up.

Another thing I've just been told is as well as the certificate having to be a certified translation, the original has to be certified at the ministry of foreign affairs. Still this process should be straightforward: dealing with Thai authorities in my experience has always been a far more straightforward and quick process.

[SS queries]

Had some great news after talking to an immigration specialist. If anyone is in a similar position it might be helpful. So I wouldn't have to have the UK passport ready for my daughter in advance, I'd simply have to make two non-EU family member applications providing proof she's my daughter! I completely overlooked this whole aspect! So it looks like it could be done quite easily. Obviously he wants to sell his services and wouldn't give details if I had sufficient proof (along with what I already said I also have proof that I worked in Thailand for 18 months and photos of me and my girlfriend before and during pregnancy) and also with the three of us when the baby was 2 months and 10 months). So anyway he said he could do all the legwork for £2,000 beginning to end for the whole process which is a lot of money, but doesn't seem extortionate. Maybe best to leave it someone who won't overlook any aspect because if I have to appeal any aspect it can add a lot of time onto things.

[secret.simon]

I'd simply have to make two non-EU family member applications providing proof she's my daughter!

I don't get it. If you include proof that she is your daughter, that means that your daughter is a British citizen and that rules her out for a UK visa. A British citizen can not be issued a visa to enter the UK (nor to the best of my knowledge, can she be issued a visa for the rest of the EU to which she has freedom of movement as a British citizen).

My gut feeling is that such an application (for your daughter) would fail. I will, however, leave it for moderators more learned than me to advise and comment further.

As regards getting a passport for your daughter, most people posting on these forums suggest a wait of between 6 months and a year for getting the same. Look for threads on Indian or Pakistani citizens who naturalised, but gave birth to their children in their home country.

[vinny]

Wow just went to pick up the certified translated copies in Hua Hin and was told that for a UK passport for my daughter I have to have a court order saying I'm responsible for the child as we aren't/weren't married when our daughter was born! This is news to me. Can anyone confirm this?

Who told you this?

Perhaps your child's mother should make your child's British passport application, with your child claiming British citizenship through you and you also giving consent.

[SS queries]

I'd simply have to make two non-EU family member applications providing proof she's my daughter!

I don't get it. If you include proof that she is your daughter, that means that your daughter is a British citizen and that rules her out for a UK visa. A British citizen can not be issued a visa to enter the UK (nor to the best of my knowledge, can she be issued a visa for the rest of the EU to which she has freedom of movement as a British citizen).

My gut feeling is that such an application (for your daughter) would fail. I will, however, leave it for moderators more learned than me to advise and comment further.

As regards getting a passport for your daughter, most people posting on these forums suggest a wait of between 6 months and a year for getting the same. Look for threads on Indian or Pakistani citizens who naturalised, but gave birth to their children in their home country.

I mean that as my wife would get a EU family partner visa so could my daughter as although she is English, she is also Thai and also a family member. But I do see your point regarding that. It's all a bit too complex for me

[SS queries]

Wow just went to pick up the certified translated copies in Hua Hin and was told that for a UK passport for my daughter I have to have a court order saying I'm responsible for the child as we aren't/weren't married when our daughter was born! This is news to me. Can anyone confirm this?

Who told you this?

Perhaps your child's mother should make your child's British passport application, with your child claiming British citizenship through you and you also giving consent.

P&A international law in Hua Hin told me this. You might be right...

I think they either got confused about something that got changed back in 2006 before which you had to be married, otherwise had to have a court order from what I can gather...

I only used them because I saw someone else had used them lots and highly recommended them for translation purposes on a Hua Him forum.

[SS queries]

Anyone have any ideas about this?? 'I mean that as my wife would get a EU family partner visa so could my daughter as although she is English, she is also Thai and also a family member. But I do see your point regarding that. It's all a bit too complex for me.'

Also does anyone know if they do get an Irish visa granted could they have problems at immigration because I'll not be on the same flight, I'll already be in Ireland.