Exercising EU treaty rights - 5 years of mixed work/student

[nordize]

Hi,

Thanks everyone for a great forum. I'll try to keep this short. I did read the FAQ-Q5 on this topic, the AN form, guide, and booklet.

- My country joined the EU in Jan 2007.
- I have been living in the UK as an EU national for the past 8 years and 8 months.
- The first 4 years of that period I was a PhD student.
- The last 4 years and 8 months of that period I have been working - employed.
- Hence, I was still a PhD student for 1 year and 4 months during my last 6 years in the UK.

What I understand (correct me if I'm wrong): FAQ-Q5 and booklet state that Permanent Residence (PR) status is automatically obtained after 5 years of residence as an EU national, and then 1 year of PR is needed before applying. FAQ Q5 says one needs to provide proof that during those 5 years (the first 5 out of 6) they were exercising EU treaty rights. The AN form at section 2.4 asks for details for all 6 years. In my case, the last 6 years include 1 year and 4 months during which I was still a PhD student. The booklet says that for students one needs to provide proof of comprehensive medical insurance, though I'm no longer a student and I won't be applying as a student.

My questions:

- Would letters from my university (stating I was a registered PhD student until Jan 2011) and employers (stating I have been an employee since Jan 2011) suffice as proof of exercising EU treaty rights and hence gain automatic PR in the UK?

- Do I still need to show proof of comprehensive medical insurance for the duration I was a PhD student?

- Is there anything else I need to provide as proof of exercising EU treaty rights for the past 5+1 years?

- Section 1.3 asks for the date I obtained indefinite leave to remain and points to the booklet. I guess this can be left empty? Or shall I enter 01/01/2012 which corresponds to 5 years after my country joined the EU?

Any other tips welcome! Many thanks in advance.

[noajthan]

...

- My country joined the EU in Jan 2007.
- I have been living in the UK as an EU national for the past 8 years and 8 months.
- The first 4 years of that period I was a PhD student.
- The last 4 years and 8 months of that period I have been working - employed.
- Hence, I was still a PhD student for 1 year and 4 months during my last 6 years in the UK.

What I understand (correct me if I'm wrong): FAQ-Q5 and booklet state that Permanent Residence (PR) status is automatically obtained after 5 years of residence as an EU national, and then 1 year of PR is needed before applying. FAQ Q5 says one needs to provide proof that during those 5 years (the first 5 out of 6) they were exercising EU treaty rights. The AN form at section 2.4 asks for details for all 6 years. In my case, the last 6 years include 1 year and 4 months during which I was still a PhD student. The booklet says that for students one needs to provide proof of comprehensive medical insurance, though I'm no longer a student and I won't be applying as a student.

My questions:

- Would letters from my university (stating I was a registered PhD student until Jan 2011) and employers (stating I have been an employee since Jan 2011) suffice as proof of exercising EU treaty rights and hence gain automatic PR in the UK?

No

- Do I still need to show proof of comprehensive medical insurance for the duration I was a PhD student?

Yes if claiming for a period during which you were a student.
Alternately, did you hold an EHIC card from your country
Or does your country have any sort of reciprocal healthcare arrangement with UK
For e.g. Polish students can apparently use a form of Polish healthcare system cover via their parent/s.

- Is there anything else I need to provide as proof of exercising EU treaty rights for the past 5+1 years?

Yes- re-read the guidance

- Section 1.3 asks for the date I obtained indefinite leave to remain and points to the booklet. I guess this can be left empty? Or shall I enter 01/01/2012 which corresponds to 5 years after my country joined the EU?

ILR (non-EEA route) is different from PR.

Any other tips welcome! Many thanks in advance.

You have a fair understanding of what is required.
To naturalise you have to have settled status (for an EEA national that is PR).
I suggest focus on getting that in the bag first.

Tips...
If you were a job seeker just before your period of employment then that is another valid way of exercising treaty rights (& does not require CSI);
you may be able to demonstrate 5 years of exercising treaty rights in this way: job-seeker + worker
- proof of job-seeker status still required.

If unsure of your position you could shoot for a confirmation of PR card before going full on for naturalisation.
This approach risks less outlay & can help towards naturalising.

This assumes you meet all other requirements, have you dug into those too
for e.g: KOLL, absences in limits, sound mind, good character, physically present in UK 5 years before application (with proof) & etc.

Best of luck.

[nordize]

Thanks for the reply. As I said, I did read the guide, booklet, form, and the FAQ here and as far as I can see, in my case I would need:
- letters from employer confirming employment for the past 4y 8m (or P60 certificates)
- letter from university confirming I was a student for the duration and, as per your reply, also comprehensive medical insurance for the 1y 4m beforehand

You seem to suggest the above are not sufficient. Care to elaborate? I'm only interested in proving the exercising of EU treaty rights for 5+1 years (I'm excluding the other requirements such as ID, Life in the UK certificate, language certificate etc)

I wasn't a job seeker prior to employment (I got employed immediately after finishing my PhD, which was full time).

[noajthan]

P.S. Are you from an A8 country

If so did you register any period of work (in/before 2011) under WRS

[nordize]

No, I'm not from an A8 country. Also, see my reply above.

[noajthan]

Thanks for the reply. As I said, I did read the guide, booklet, form, and the FAQ here and as far as I can see, in my case I would need:
- letters from employer confirming employment for the past 4y 8m (or P60 certificates)
- letter from university confirming I was a student for the duration and, as per your reply, also comprehensive medical insurance for the 1y 4m beforehand

You seem to suggest the above are not sufficient. Care to elaborate? I'm only interested in proving the exercising of EU treaty rights for 5+1 years (I'm excluding the other requirements such as ID, Life in the UK certificate, language certificate etc)

I wasn't a job seeker prior to employment (I got employed immediately after finishing my PhD, which was full time).

Noted - so no time possible as a jobseeker (which would help avoid need for proof of CSI).

If you include the period as a student you need to demonstrate CSI (or alternative) or the time will not be counted.
Did you have CSI as a student - which form of CSI evidence will you use?

If you hold a PR card the proof for citizenship is simplified somewhat.

if you do not (and it is not compulsory to have or submit a PR card) you have to provide more to prove the treaty rights & your residency and your presence in UK
See section 3 of the guidance.

So, yes, letters (from employer/s, university), council tax bills etc indicating residence;
tax documents, proof of CSI for evidence of treaty rights
& passport (if stamped) or other proof of physical presence in UK on specific date before application & also for proof of absences.

[noajthan]

No, I'm not from an A8 country. Also, see my reply above.

ok, well that helps.
It means no need to worry about WRS registration (or not) within or before 2011.

[nordize]

Thanks for the replies. I take it that CSI means Comprehensive Student Insurance? (the medical one)

From what you're saying, I don't see many options for me other than wait 1y and 4m before applying. I don't think I had CSI as a student, unless paying a college fee at Cambridge (this is different than the tuition fee) automatically entitled me to some medical insurance. I will ask.

I heard of cases where solicitors succeeded in pushing NHS insurance as acceptable student medical insurance for the citizenship application.

Here is a case almost identical to mine - see the 2nd post: http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... 92224.html

[noajthan]

Thanks for the replies. I take it that CSI means Comprehensive Student Insurance? (the medical one)

From what you're saying, I don't see many options for me other than wait 1y and 4m before applying. I don't think I had CSI as a student, unless paying a college fee at Cambridge (this is different than the tuition fee) automatically entitled me to some medical insurance. I will ask.

I heard of cases where solicitors succeeded in pushing NHS insurance as acceptable student medical insurance for the citizenship application.

Here is a case almost identical to mine - see the 2nd post: http://www.immigrationboards.com/britis ... 92224.html

Recent legal challenges (reported in media &/or in these forum) have been rebuffed & come to nothing in the higher UK courts (apparently) so currently the CSI requirement still stands.
(fyi the Aire Centre is active in this arena),

There are no details in the link you mention.
A lot of people would be interested to hear details about a case that won on those grounds.

Yes CSI = comprehensive health insurance.

No, UK college fees don't cover it.
Nor does an UK EHIC card.

The fact that you probably accessed & used NHS for free (with no problem or challenges) whilst you have been in UK & the fact that you have paid almost 5 years of tax & NI unfortunately doesn't count for anything under UK immigration laws.

Did you hold an EHIC card from your country while you were studying
Have you checked on any reciprocal arrangement
Is it possible you were covered by whatever provision your parents have in home country
- all worth checking.

Otherwise keep on working as a worker type of qualified person & you should attain settled status (PR) in around 4 months.
Its up to you if you then wish to apply for a confirmation of PR card.

Hold PR for 12 months (unless you take drastic step of marrying a BC) and then you could be eligible to apply for privilege of UK citizenship.

[nordize]

CSI = Comprehensive Health Insurance? ... shouldn't that read CHI?

Cambridge colleges are not your typical "UK college". They are independent institutions, not part of the University of Cambridge. You become a member of both the university and a college, and you pay a separate (and hefty) fee to the college, on top of the university fee which goes to the university. The college provides accommodation, meals, 1-to-1 teaching, among other things. I'll ask them regardless.

I don't recall having an EHIC while studying.

I'm not sure what "reciprocal arrangement" means. Do you mean between UK and my country in terms of medical insurance where the UK would recognize an insurance I have in my country? I left my country in 2001 and I'm pretty certain I have no medical insurance there any more ... so I guess any reciprocal agreement would be worthless.

I'll ask my mom about her medical insurance. She lives in my old country. Chances are slim that she has me on her insurance given I left in 2001.

I'll ask about all these points. My biggest hope is from my Cambridge college, and those chance are low to begin with ... sounds like I'll have to wait 1y and 4m.

This comprehensive medical insurance condition is almost insulting. I could have been illegally staying in the UK and they would still approve my citizenship just fine as long as I work for the last 5 years, but they won't approve it if I had been studying for a single month of the last 5 years without comprehensive private insurance. Some folks are making a lot of money off of this little condition.

Many thanks for all the replies.

[noajthan]

fyi - Ahmad case wrt CSI:

http://www.vwv.co.uk/what-s-happening/p ... -a-student

The Appellant applied for confirmation of permanent residence as the spouse of an EEA national exercising her treaty right but his application was refused because his wife had not obtained sickness insurance.

The Appellant argued that as his wife was entitled to use the NHS she did not need private insurance cover to do so. The Upper Tribunal rejected this argument and the Appellant appealed.

The CA dismissed the appeal. It ruled that an EEA national, when exercising a Treaty right as a student, would only have lawful residence if they had comprehensive sickness insurance. This could not include the public healthcare system of the host state because that would defeat the object of the Directive, namely relieving the state of the cost of providing healthcare in the first five years of the EEA national's presence in that state.

Another case study here - again case dismissed:
http://www.immigrationboards.com/eea-ro ... 61020.html

[nordize]

Reading http://www.vwv.co.uk/what-s-happening/p ... -a-student and the "Best practice" section therein at the end, it almost reads like EEA students who do not have CSI do not have the right to study in the UK ... that can't be the case! Surely UK universities do not ask EEA nationals to have CSI. I was not asked for it.

Also, I replied above to your previous post. I may be lucky with my Cambridge college, but I'm not holding my breath.

Thanks once again for all the replies, at least I know not to waste my time and money on a legal route with solicitors.

[nordize]

The Ahmed case is from 1995 ... wow. Still, this post here which is from Aug 2015 says their solicitors successfully argued that the NHS should be counted as her comprehensive. I'm back on the fence.

[noajthan]

CSI = Comprehensive Health Insurance? ... shouldn't that read CHI?

Cambridge colleges are not your typical "UK college". They are independent institutions, not part of the University of Cambridge. You become a member of both the university and a college, and you pay a separate (and hefty) fee to the college, on top of the university fee which goes to the university. The college provides accommodation, meals, 1-to-1 teaching, among other things. I'll ask them regardless.

I don't recall having an EHIC while studying.

I'm not sure what "reciprocal arrangement" means. Do you mean between UK and my country in terms of medical insurance? I left my country in 2001 so I'm pretty certain I have no medical insurance there any more anyway ... so I guess any reciprocal agreement would be worthless.

I'll ask my mom about her medical insurance. She lives in my old country. Chances are slim that she has me on her insurance given I left in 2001.

I'll ask about all these points. My biggest hope is from my Cambridge college, and those chance are low to begin with ... sounds like I'll have to wait 1y and 4m.

This comprehensive medical insurance condition is almost insulting. I could have been illegally staying in the UK and they would still approve my citizenship just fine as long as I work for the last 5 years, but they won't approve it if I had been studying for a single month of the last 5 years without comprehensive private insurance. Some folks are making a lot of money off of this little condition.

Many thanks for all the replies.

I think it's also called Comprehensive Sickness Insurance.

I wasn't clear on tuition versus college fees.
You may come up trumps if there is an insurance component to it..

Yes - I mean any reciprocal health agreement between your home country & UK; there are some in place apparently.

Do follow up on all avenues; a forum poster earlier this week found out the Polish system that covered his parents also (fortunately) applied to him too - so you never know.

afaik illegal residents here can not work legally in UK and the new UK 'good character' requirements would impose an automatic 10-year ban on anyone even if they regularised their presence - but I get your point.

As I understand it these are UK laws & regulations on top of the underlying EU directives.
It is the EU directive (not UK law per se) that says economically inactive persons (eg including students) should not be a burden on the host state.

It is frustrating which is why I asked if you could stretch possibly your time out by 4 months as a jobseeker.

However once you do have PR you are at least settled which (with all talk of Brexit etc) is still a significant step to naturalisation.

[LilyLalilu]

Did you have a non-UK EHIC whilst you were a student? If so, you may be able to use this as a replacement for CSI. For this to count, you should submit a self-declaration with your application stating that during your studies, you were only planning on staying temporarily, and then changed your mind once you were in employment. This is needed as EHIC can only be used to replace CSI for temporary stays.
Probably best to apply for PR first - mainly because you'd have the right to appeal if refused. Or else wait until you have accumulated 5 years of treaty rights as a worker.

Or were you issued a Blue Registration Certificate as a student before 20 06 2011? I believe then you may have been exempt from the CSI requirement as well...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... Policy.pdf (Section 6.9&6.10)

[noajthan]

The Ahmed case is from 1995 ... wow. Still, this post here which is from Aug 2015 says their solicitors successfully argued that the NHS should be counted as her comprehensive. I'm back on the fence.

I think it dates from 2014
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... ick....pdf

[nordize]

I'll have PR in 4 months since I have been working for 4 years and 8 months. So I'll have that going for me which is nice . As vicious as the current govt is, they can't pull out of the EU in 4 months (they need a national referendum, then ratify it etc). But they won't even try it.

For the jobseeker part, it'll have to be for 1 year and 4 months, not just 4 months. But regardless, I can't produce proof of jobseeking (I wasn't jobseeking).

I know what you mean, but PhD students aren't really economically inactive (the fees and living expenses etc are enormous), and purchasing a CSI doesn't really make a student economically active

I'll write back when I get all my answers.

[nordize]

Did you have a non-UK EHIC whilst you were a student? If so, you may be able to use this as a replacement for CSI. For this to count, you should submit a self-declaration with your application stating that during your studies, you were only planning on staying temporarily, and then changed your mind once you were in employment. This is needed as EHIC can only be used to replace CSI for temporary stays.
Probably best to apply for PR first - mainly because you'd have the right to appeal if refused. Or else wait until you have accumulated 5 years of treaty rights as a worker.

Or were you issued a Blue Registration Certificate as a student before 20 06 2011? I believe then you may have been exempt from the CSI requirement as well...
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... Policy.pdf (Section 6.9&6.10)

As I was saying previously, I don't think I had an EHIC during my studies but my Cambridge college may have had an incurance component for the hefty fee I was paying it (see my post above).

I do have a blue registration certificate issued on 16 Aug 2011 ... However, I had been issued a yellow registration certificate before that, while I was still a student, though almost at the end of my course, somewhere late 2010 or Jan 2011, so it would not cover the 1 year and 4 month duration.

The PDF you linked to says: "EEA nationals who were issued with a registration certification before 20 June 2011 on the basis that they were a student would not have been required to submit evidence that they held CSI, and therefore must not be required to provide evidence of CSI for any period spent as a student after their certificate was issued."

It looks like my yellow certificate would exempt me from proving CSI only for the period after it was issued. It would still leave about 1 year which requires proof of CSI.

However, the UKBA asked for the yellow certificate back when they issued me the blue one, so I no longer have it, but I have a photocopy of it.

Thoughts?

[noajthan]

As I was saying previously, I don't think I had an EHIC during my studies but my Cambridge college may have had an insurance component for the hefty fee I was paying it (see my post above).

I do have a blue registration certificate issued on 16 Aug 2011 ... However, I had been issued a yellow registration certificate before that, while I was still a student, though almost at the end of my course, somewhere late 2010 or Jan 2011, so it would not cover the 1 year and 4 month duration.

The PDF you linked to says: "EEA nationals who were issued with a registration certification before 20 June 2011 on the basis that they were a student would not have been required to submit evidence that they held CSI, and therefore must not be required to provide evidence of CSI for any period spent as a student after their certificate was issued."

It looks like my yellow certificate would exempt me from proving CSI only for the period after it was issued. It would still leave about 1 year which requires proof of CSI.

However, the UKBA asked for the yellow certificate back when they issued me the blue one, so I no longer have it, but I have a photocopy of it.

Thoughts?

Aha, the game's afoot.

I think the point may be CSI was not asked for before some date in 2011. So it may not matter you didn't have it before then.
And this card guarantees some sort of transitional arrangement that appears to carry on after 2011.

I don't know this by direct experience so to be sure you will need to dig into this to find out what those cards actually were & what rights they confer.
Why not call the HO helpline and ask them about it too, or better still do it in writing (more reliable).

[nordize]

Actually, it would only save me about 1 month ...

[nordize]

Aha, the game's afoot.

I think the point may be CSI was not asked for before some date in 2011. So it may not matter you didn't have it before then.
And this card guarantees some sort of transitional arrangement that appears to carry on after 2011.

I don't know this by direct experience so you will need to dig into this to be sure.
Why not call the HO helpline and ask them, or better still do it in writing (more reliable).

Well, the paragraph says: "[...] must not be required to provide evidence of CSI for any period spent as a student after their certificate was issued."

My yellow certificate was issued Dec 2010. I stopped being a student in Jan 2011 so it would only cover about 1 month of equivalent CSI.

However, at this point it is worth calling the HO helpline. As you say, maybe the CSI was not required before Jun 2011 (though the Ahmed legal case is from 1995, and the wording of the paragraph also seems like it was a requirement) or maybe meeting the conditions for a yellow certificate automatically back then implied something for some years priorly that could override the CSI ... sounds like wishful thinking, but doesn't hurt to call them.

Is it this I need to contact: https://www.gov.uk/contact-ukvi/british ... ationality ?

[LilyLalilu]

Hmm, I guess in that case the certificate will only cover you after the issue date but maybe ask someone with more detailed knowledge on this for assistance. If you didn't have an EHIC but had your home country insurance covering you even without a card (not sure if you did?!), maybe you could get a letter from them confirming this and then this should do.

I work in Higher Ed and I highly doubt that they would have had any kind of insurance for you during your PhD but no harm in asking I guess. It's a shame that EU students are never told about this requirement - but I suppose back then it was really just a requirement on paper as it wasn't enforced until 2011 and unless you want to obtain PR it still isn't really needed...

If you have PR in a few months as a worker anyways, I'd just wait to save yourself all the hassle. The EU referendum is still a while away and even after a potential out vote, there'd probably be a 2 year negotiation period before they'd pull out as per the Lisbon treaty.
Hope they never actually leave the EU but always good to plan for the worst case scenario - good luck with everything!

[nordize]

Sorry, the Ahmad case is indeed from 2014 (I googled the wrong thing .. there is an Ahmed v the same body case from 1995 ... I need more coffee, or sleep).

Waiting 4 months wouldn't be a big deal. But 1 year and 4 months would.

You say you work in higher ed (I presume UK). Is that Cambridge or Oxford? The collegiate system there is quite different to the rest of the UK (or even world) unis, most don't have a collegiate system like Cam/Ox do (a lot of folks, British included, have no idea - not saying it's your case. If you work at Cam or Ox, maybe we can take this offline for some particular questions about those - I work at Cam but you may be more experienced).

[noajthan]

Well, the paragraph says: "[...] must not be required to provide evidence of CSI for any period spent as a student after their certificate was issued."

My yellow certificate was issued Dec 2010. I stopped being a student in Jan 2011 so it would only cover about 1 month of equivalent CSI.

However, at this point it is worth calling the HO helpline. As you say, maybe the CSI was not required before Jun 2011 (though the Ahmed legal case is from 1995, and the wording of the paragraph also seems like it was a requirement) or maybe meeting the conditions for a yellow certificate automatically back then implied something for some years priorly that could override the CSI ... sounds like wishful thinking, but doesn't hurt to call them.

Is it this I need to contact: https://www.gov.uk/contact-ukvi/british ... ationality ?

I think the Ahmad case was in 2014 (not sure where 1995 comes from).

If your cards were some sort of 'get out of jail-free' type of card why would they be issued in various formats but only to be valid on/after 2011.
They must have conferred some rights to the holder during/before 2011 too.

If all of your study time can suddenly be counted due to an exemption from CSI you're home & dry.
Don't forget you can use any 5-year period for PR (that qualifies under the rules) not just the last 5/6 years.

[nordize]

@noajthan, Indeed the Ahmad case is from 2014 (I realized in my post above). I'll call the HO. You're definitely right wrt that exemption meaning there were different rules/consideration prior to June 2011 which are worth exploiting.

@LilyLalilu, see my post above above.