Adult Dependant Visa for parent who is currently in the UK

[nirmal_kishore]

Hello
I am a British Citizen living with my family in the UK. My mother who was widowed in May 2015 is now in the UK (entered in November 2015) as she has a valid family visitor visa valid till May this year. I have been looking at the option of applying a residence permit for my mother but unsure what route applies in my case. I understand the normal adult dependant settlement visa route is for applications made in the country of origin but we won't be able to do that until later this year. Is it possible to make an in-country application?

thanks
Nirmal

[CR001]

It is an impossible visa to get and is very expensive (£2141) and fees going up in April.

https://www.gov.uk/join-family-in-uk/eligibility

This is what you need to prove

You must be dependent on a parent, grandchild, brother, sister, son or daughter of someone living permanently in the UK.

You must prove that:

you need long-term care to do everyday personal and household tasks
the care you need is not available or affordable in the country you live in
the person you’ll be joining in the UK will be able to support, accommodate and care for you without claiming public funds for at least 5 years
you’re 18 or over

Depending on which country she is from, unless the healthcare is more expensive than the UK, very little (or no chance) of success.

If you apply and are refused, it will shut the door on any future visitor visas as the intention to settle has been declared.

[secret.simon]

Search on these forums for terms like "Adult Dependent relatives", "older dependent relatives", "ADR" & "parents". There are more than enough threads to tell you that the ADR application is an exercise in futility, unless, as CR001 points out, your mother is normally resident in a country that has very expensive social care, such as the US.

You may want to look at the Surinder Singh route. Be aware that for it to work, you will need to transfer the "center of your life" to another EEA country. And that includes your spouse, children, etc. That may have a negative impact on your children's schooling.

[nirmal_kishore]

Thanks for your replies guys. I cannot afford to spend £2140 (or more if I use a solicitor) for a visa application that has such small chance of success. This government certainly knows how to make life miserable for immigrants!

[CR001]

This might sound harsh, but it is the reality. The government did not force you to come to the UK and leave your parents behind and of course you could move back or to another EU country as secret.simon advised which is a cheaper route (but one also under scrutiny by HO). The government has to control the immigration somehow and with an already aging UK population and strain on the NHS services, this is the reality for migrants with elderly parents.

[nirmal_kishore]

Hi CR001
I appreciate why you say that and to be honest I did at one point also think similar. But on the other hand I am a highly skilled migrant (as are many others in this country) and was approached and offered a job by a British company clearly because they felt it would benefit them and ultimately the UK economy. I might be just a speck or even smaller in that big picture but I am not non-existent. As it happens the majority of workers in my line of work are actually migrants and without this workforce the UK industry will be crippled and lose out! . Admittedly I have personally benefited from this move but this country needs me too! As to somehow being able to control immigration, surely the answer is not to approach it with a one size fits all and penalise people like myself. If immigration control is what they really intend I think there are bigger fish to fry, those where the government not only gets to show off a shiny new stricter policy but also make some real headway in bringing the numbers down. And believe me only a small % of the immigrant population actually want to bring their adult dependant parents.
What the policy essentially says is that you need to wait for one of the parents to die, the other to be sick, and so sick that they cannot move around, and then be denied care by other children in their home country, and even after all that misery you still stand little chance of getting your lone parent over because they come from a poorer nation i.e. where healthcare is affordable. And I haven't even mentioned the extortionate amount of fee for this application. They obviously want the fee itself to be a deterrent, and I would question if the government would have the guts to introduce such a ruthless policy to their electorate population. They do it because they can! Doesn't the current policy only allow people who 100% will depend on the NHS, on the basis that they are supposed require long-term care? The government's just been very lazy and careless about this policy and their logic is flawed (and purposefully so).

[CR001]

I do understand your points and agree to some extent. I myself have my parents in South Africa, although my mother qualifies for an Ancestral visa so could return again (she has been here previously on this visa) she cannot afford the fees, IHS and fund holding required as a pensioner, so I myself am looking at the Surinder Singh route via Denmark for her simply because it is cheaper and will afford her more rights in Denmark or if we return to the UK.

Even British citizens struggle and have to jump through hoops to bring their spouses. It is not easy for a lot of them either.

Given the free movement of EU citizens, the small island is getting very full. One can't blame the government for trying to exert some control on non-EU migration. HO don't take 'emotions' into account unfortunately.

[secret.simon]

At the end of the day you made a choice to migrate to the UK and chose to follow the laws of this country. The laws of this country are decided by a democratically elected government that broadly reflects the views of the people of this country. The laws, reflecting public opinion, discourage chain migration.

You are free to make a choice again and either continue to adhere to the laws or to move back to take care of your parents.

You are correct in stating that as a highly skilled migrant, you are a desirable asset. But, with respect, your parents do not fit that bill.

believe me only a small % of the immigrant population actually want to bring their adult dependant parents.

That assertion is not supported by the number of queries raised on this point in these forums.

I would question if the government would have the guts to introduce such a ruthless policy to their electorate population.

All British citizens, including naturalised ones such as yourself, and all Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK on a non-visit visa (so, even Indians on a student visa, for instance) are a part of the electorate. And the electorate broadly supports this policy.

And it impacts even natural-born (in the American sense of the phrase) British citizens, such as noajthan, who had to jump through hoops, just like the rest of us, to get his family (his wife and children) to join him in the UK. British citizens who settle in warmer non-EEA climes, such as Australia, are disadvantaged when it comes to their pensions and savings as well. So, people who are born British are not immune from negative aspects of government policy.

And broadly, the difficult immigration policy affects all non-EEA citizens. There are tales on these forums of people who were born British and who are married to Americans, Canadians, Aussies and Kiwis and who have trouble bringing their families here.

HO don't take 'emotions' into account unfortunately.

Thank heavens for that. One would not want one's application decided by a right-wing sympathiser based on his emotions. Immigration is too serious a matter for emotions. It should be clinically decided in a cold, dispassionate and rational way.

[noajthan]

At the end of the day you made a choice to migrate to the UK and chose to follow the laws of this country. The laws of this country are decided by a democratically elected government that broadly reflects the views of the people of this country. The laws, reflecting public opinion, discourage chain migration.

...

And it impacts even natural-born (in the American sense of the phrase) British citizens, such as noajthan, who had to jump through hoops, just like the rest of us, to get his family (his wife and children) to join him in the UK. British citizens who settle in warmer non-EEA climes, such as Australia, are disadvantaged when it comes to their pensions and savings as well. So, people who are born British are not immune from negative aspects of government policy.

...

Indeed it's a difficult environment for all.
In my case, 8 or 9 years migration journey to get my fiancee/spouse & family into country and finally naturalised.
The pain and hardship incurred has been an eye-opener & revelation to me.

For example, my wife has had to face the fact she may never see her aging parents ever again; (they are relatively young by UK standards but life expectancy in her country is quite limited).

Even visit visas are out of the question from her country so its either a several thousand-£ trip once every year or so or nothing.
That is the 'opportunity cost' she has incurred in choosing a life in UK with me.

UK certainly does not promote chain migration.
What OP has outlined is the case for free movement but that's a purely European (EU) concept and not embraced by UK.

[Wanderer]

As a UK/Eire person born and bred, not sure culturally I understand the parent thing, normally here we can't wait to get away from our parents, right or wrong that's the norm here.

Usually our parents are fine and keen to see us fly the nest and lead independent lives, not really sure why uk.plc should have to cater for those cultures that think different, despite the moaners on here UK is more diverse than any country i've spent time in, and thats a fair few, but there are limits, and I think chain migration is one too far. Sorry.

[noajthan]

As a UK/Eire person born and bred, not sure culturally I understand the parent thing, normally here we can't wait to get away from our parents, right or wrong that's the norm here.

Usually our parents are fine and keen to see us fly the nest and lead independent lives, not really sure why uk.plc should have to cater for those cultures that think different, despite the moaners on here UK is more diverse than any country i've spent time in, and thats a fair few, but there are limits, and I think chain migration is one too far. Sorry.

I used to think in a similar vein but having spent time in the remote province and embraced the culture of my in-laws, a place where family (good or bad) is literally all they have (and children are the 'pension' &/or the social care system), then I can begin to understand the different point of view.

For example, in my wife's country even 3rd or 4th degree cousins are considered close family. Cousins and 2nd degree cousins are like siblings.

Having said that she, for one, is not hankering for chain migration but she does miss her family.

[nirmal_kishore]

Firstly I want to clarify that I am not challenging immigration policies as a whole - just the laws and policies around Adult Dependant Relatives (and more specifically parents).

At the end of the day you made a choice to migrate to the UK and chose to follow the laws of this country. The laws of this country are decided by a democratically elected government that broadly reflects the views of the people of this country. The laws, reflecting public opinion, discourage chain migration.

Agreed I did but these laws were different when I first moved in. I could equally argue that more favourable laws were in place previously because the country needed skilled people to come in and they threw in a few perks so that migrants stay here for good. Those laws have been adjusted now to suit the economic conditions and more specifically for political mileage. Can I then say that the HO broke the original terms of engagement? Yes I chose to follow the laws of this country that said I could get my dependant family members to join me in the UK. I feel betrayed that the law has been altered to the extent that my mother who is now dependant on me cannot permanently live with me in the UK
And chain migration? I am not trying to bring over my siblings and cousins! How can immigration for dependant parents be referred to as chain migration?

You are free to make a choice again and either continue to adhere to the laws or to move back to take care of your parents.
You are correct in stating that as a highly skilled migrant, you are a desirable asset. But, with respect, your parents do not fit that bill.

Indeed I can make that choice again. But you, me and the government know that life isn't that simple. I actually did previously look at applying for residence permits for both my parents but didn't do so because the law didn't allow it. 9 months ago I actually did make that choice of returning to look after my parents following my father fell ill. My Dad passed away a month later. That is when I had to reconsider my next step, and that's when bringing my mother over on a long term basis appeared as an option. Sorry about that detail but I hope that explains my situation.
My parents don't fit the bill of 'highly skilled migrant' but then on that account my wife doesn't either, nor do my children. The key word here isn't 'parent', it is 'dependant'! This particular policy I still maintain is designed around "what can we get away with, without too much headache".

believe me only a small % of the immigrant population actually want to bring their adult dependant parents.

That assertion is not supported by the number of queries raised on this point in these forums.

Fair point as far as queries in this forum are concerned. But if you look at a recent petition about this very subject, it could not gain enough signatures to be worthy of a discussion in the parliament. There was a government response to it but seriously that response might have as well been delivered by a robot. https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/109314

I would question if the government would have the guts to introduce such a ruthless policy to their electorate population.

All British citizens, including naturalised ones such as yourself, and all Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK on a non-visit visa (so, even Indians on a student visa, for instance) are a part of the electorate. And the electorate broadly supports this policy.

Point taken about me being part of the electorate and apologies I generalised in my original response to CR001. That said I personally don't agree with the idea that all government policies are broadly supported by the electorate. The electoral system doesn't actually allow for voting on the basis of specific parts within a policy. The electorate voted for improved immigration numbers - what the government does to achieve it is in most cases upto them. And funny that, because the numbers aren't anywhere close to the targets - and that is because they are focusing on the small things, the low hanging fruit! The number of signatures on that petition I referred to earlier shows that ADR couldn't have been a priority for policy making, so the Home Secretary and co can quite easily have their way. No one has the time for minority voters.

HO don't take 'emotions' into account unfortunately.

Thank heavens for that. One would not want one's application decided by a right-wing sympathiser based on his emotions. Immigration is too serious a matter for emotions. It should be clinically decided in a cold, dispassionate and rational way.

[/quote]
Not taking into account 'emotions' is precisely why this particular policy is so flawed. Does the government not consider 'emotions' when it looks into care for the elderly in the UK? Then why is this different? The whole idea of human rights, family reunion and care are all underpinned by human emotions. We are talking about lone, typically over 60, bereaved individuals who need care not only physically but emotionally too. Being clinical, dispassionate and cold is necessary for most immigration decisions, but this particular policy regarding ADR isn't a standard immigration decision. And this is why I say its a lazily drawn out policy that doesn't recognise the reality on the ground.

[nirmal_kishore]

As a UK/Eire person born and bred, not sure culturally I understand the parent thing, normally here we can't wait to get away from our parents, right or wrong that's the norm here.

Usually our parents are fine and keen to see us fly the nest and lead independent lives, not really sure why uk.plc should have to cater for those cultures that think different, despite the moaners on here UK is more diverse than any country i've spent time in, and thats a fair few, but there are limits, and I think chain migration is one too far. Sorry.

That's a good point about the cultural differences in terms of relationship with parents. It certainly is different where I come from. But the focus here (atleast for me) is a lone parent who is bereaved. I don't mean any disrespect but would a similar situation prompt some kind of action from someone who is UK/Eire born and bred?
As for the UK catering to cultures that think different - well If the UK wants to celebrate its cultural diversity, use that diversity as a means to gain political and economic advantage then they better cater to all those cultures! You can't have your cake and eat it too!

[noajthan]

That's a good point about the cultural differences in terms of relationship with parents. It certainly is different where I come from. But the focus here (atleast for me) is a lone parent who is bereaved. I don't mean any disrespect but would a similar situation prompt some kind of action from someone who is UK/Eire born and bred?

As for the UK catering to cultures that think different - well If the UK wants to celebrate its cultural diversity, use that diversity as a means to gain political and economic advantage then they better cater to all those cultures! You can't have your cake and eat it too!

... prompt some kind of action?
Probably not...
http://www.ageuk.org.uk/health-wellbein ... oneliness/

You are espousing one of the European rationales & ideals underpinning free movement (family reunification).

In fact the only solution for your dilemma (apart from uprooting yourself back to mother country) is to embrace the Surinder Singh route.

I.e. move your 'centre of life' into a.n.other EU country for a while, exercise treaty rights there (as a worker or self-employed), with mother joining your household in Europe - then return to UK as a 'proxy' EEA national.

You will have a much easier time facilitating your dear mother's entry into UK after that i.e. you will be operating under EU (not UK) rules.

(Note Due to UK machinations in this area of law & with potential for Brexit looming it's not 100% guaranteed but it's your best shot).

[nirmal_kishore]

Thanks "noajthan".
I think you are right about the Surinder Singh route being the only option that has some chance of success. I will start looking into that

[CR001]

Thanks "noajthan".
I think you are right about the Surinder Singh route being the only option that has some chance of success. I will start looking into that

And if you are highly skilled, you should have no problems getting good employment in one of the EU countries. It is a route that might not be there forever, so my advice would be to not procrastinate on it and to make a decision sooner rather than years from now so that you can have your mother spend her last years with you and your family.

It is, at most, a year that you need to uproot yourself, spouse and kids to E.U. Other, but the benefit for you and your mom will be the ultimate prize/goal.

[secret.simon]

I could equally argue that more favourable laws were in place previously because the country needed skilled people to come in and they threw in a few perks so that migrants stay here for good. Those laws have been adjusted now to suit the economic conditions and more specifically for political mileage. Can I then say that the HO broke the original terms of engagement?

In this country, the law recognises that a person entering the country under specific rules has the legitimate expectation that his entire immigration journey would be governed by the same rules that applied when he entered the country. Which is why there are typically transitional provisions made for people already in the country when rules are changed.

However, such legitimate expectations only apply to the person's own immigration journey and not to the family members of the migrant, not even his spouse and children.

This doctrine was the basis of the HSMP JR decision in the early 2000's. Perhaps you and/or the JCWI could appeal to the courts to apply that doctrine to the entire family unit rather than just the person.

My parents don't fit the bill of 'highly skilled migrant' but then on that account my wife doesn't either, nor do my children. The key word here isn't 'parent', it is 'dependant'!

The other way of looking at it is that, as Wanderer has pointed out, dependent grandparents are not considered a part of the family unit in the UK. For the last half-century, the UK has subscribed to a nuclear family model, which comprises of one or two adults and their children. Indeed, many parents nowadays are single parents and that is perfectly acceptable in the UK.

The Rules allow for the nuclear family unit to move over to the UK.

As regards the spouse, she likely is of working age. And highly skilled or not, your spouse is highly likely to be capable of working and likely to take up work. Your children, growing up in this country, are likely to integrate culturally into the ethos and culture of this country and be future workers in this country. Neither of the two situations are true of your parents.

The electoral system doesn't actually allow for voting on the basis of specific parts within a policy.

That is because you can't pick-n-mix on policies. Policies depend on each other being a cohesive whole.

The electorate voted for improved immigration numbers - what the government does to achieve it is in most cases upto them. And funny that, because the numbers aren't anywhere close to the targets - and that is because they are focusing on the small things, the low hanging fruit!

I would argue that it is not just the low-hanging fruit. In fact, the government has practically denuded the tree of options of reducing non-EEA immigration. Can you list any other ways that you can think of reducing non-EEA migration in a significant way?

It can not do anything about EEA immigration unless the referendium in 2016 returns a vote to leave the EU.

The petition that you refer to had about 20,000 signatures (of which I was one, incidentally). That would indicate to the government that there are 20,000 potential ADR applicants straightaway. It is hardly in their interest to relax the Rules in any meaningful way.

Not taking into account 'emotions' is precisely why this particular policy is so flawed. Does the government not consider 'emotions' when it looks into care for the elderly in the UK? Then why is this different?

Actually, if you are aware of the crisis of social care in the UK, you would know that the government does not consider emotions when it comes to care of the elderly in the UK. There have been significant cuts in the budget of what is called "social care" in the UK. There is therefore a spill-over of old people back into hospitals, thus affecting NHS staffing and budgeting. That is one of the things that the government has repeated reports over, but no way forward.

Taking emotions into account when deciding applications is extremely risky. You could have UKIP sympathisers working as caseworkers who could put aside the Rules and allow their emotions to rule the day. That is a double-edged sword. Do not expect it to all go your way.

The whole idea of human rights, family reunion and care are all underpinned by human emotions.

Both of them are continental European ideas. Part of the disconnect between the UK and continental Europe, I believe, lies in the fact that we have been far more pragmatic in our approach to life (look at our unwritten constitution) as compared to their soppy wet approach. The French may deride the "Anglo-Saxon" or "Anglo-American" way of life, but guess which economy works better and who has higher immigration? Also why do migrants line up at Calais to get out of the heaven of the continental approach to human rights?

It is, at most, a year that you need to uproot yourself, spouse and kids to E.U. Other, but the benefit for you and your mom will be the ultimate prize/goal.

Firstly if you are thinking of the Surinder Singh route, better hurry up and start the process before the EU referendum, which will likely be in June 2016. Also factor in the disruption on your children's studies (assuming they are old enough to go to school).

[nirmal_kishore]

CR001, secret.simon

Sorry been away on business. Thanks for the discussion, and the suggestions. I am now looking into the Surinder Singh route and fingers crossed! secret.simon - yes I do have children old enough to go to school, and as you pointed out it is one of the things that I need to plan carefully around.

Rgds

[O_Relly]

Thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread, perception, facts and cultural aspects about the UK immigration system, policies and policy makers.

Good luck Nirmal Kishore with the Surinder Singh route.