EEA (PR) Married EEA couple - short gaps in employment

[andyrek]

Hello Everybody,

We are married couple, both from EEA, and planning to fill in EEA (PR), however we have few questions and we were thinking that maybe somebody could help us.

Background: I have worked for the same company for over 6 years now, so there's no issue here. However, during the qualified period my husband had 2 gaps in employment (3 and 2 months), both after voluntary departure. He didn't register in Job Centre because he didn't know it's essential. He also didn't apply for CSI.

1. Should we fill in one form, me as the main applicant and my husband as family member?
2. If so, do we need to provide evidence for both of us? Which sections/pages should be copied for him?
3. If we need to provide details of his EEA activity, should we cover the whole period as working and just provide them with employment details (clearly indicating that there're brakes)?
4. If self-sufficient would be more appropriate should we mentioned that he was dependent on me? What about lack of CSI in this case? I was working during that time, does it matter?

I'd be grateful for any help and advice.

[noajthan]

1. Should we fill in one form, me as the main applicant and my husband as family member?
2. If so, do we need to provide evidence for both of us? Which sections/pages should be copied for him?
3. If we need to provide details of his EEA activity, should we cover the whole period as working and just provide them with employment details (clearly indicating that there're brakes)?
4. If self-sufficient would be more appropriate should we mentioned that he was dependent on me? What about lack of CSI in this case? I was working during that time, does it matter?

I'd be grateful for any help and advice.

1) Good idea, especially if husband has gaps & you have exercised treaty rights continuously (5 years) as a qualified person.

2) Your evidence of treaty rights. Both need evidence of id, relationship (with each other), residency in UK, absences within limits & etc.

3) No need - you are the sponsor.
Dependent's activity is immaterial (as long as legal of course).

4) If you were self-sufficient (for a certain period) you both need evidence of CSI covering that period;
(otherwise your PR clock will have stopped for both of you).

If you were working, and sponsor for husband, then no need for anyone to have CSI.

P.S. Are you from an A8 (or A2) country.
Did you, for example, register fully & properly for WRS?

Have all your absences from UK (if any, for either of you) been kept within prescribed limits?
(ie to maintain continuity of residence in UK).

[andyrek]

1) Good idea, especially if husband has gaps & you have exercised treaty rights continuously (5 years) as a qualified person.

2) Your evidence of treaty rights. Both need evidence of id, relationship (with each other), residency in UK, absences within limits & etc.

3) No need - you are the sponsor.
Dependent's activity is immaterial (as long as legal of course).

4) If you were self-sufficient (for a certain period) you both need evidence of CSI covering that period;
(otherwise your PR clock will have stopped for both of you).

If you were working, and sponsor for husband, then no need for anyone to have CSI.

P.S. Are you from an A8 (or A2) country.
Did you, for example, register fully & properly for WRS?

Have all your absences from UK (if any, for either of you) been kept within prescribed limits?
(ie to maintain continuity of residence in UK).

Thank you noajthan.

1) We are both trying to apply now with 5 years period counting from the beginning of 2010 so that if we successful we could apply for citizenship/neutralization. Does section 2 applies here then (I'm his sponsor as you suggested in your answer to 3)?

2) Evidence of treaty rights - do you mean section 9 A and B (as we're both from A8)? Or it's section 5.

3) Here again, I'm not sure what can we skip (which section) if I'm his sponsor.

4) I have been with the same employer for over 6 years. I only mentioned self-efficiency with regard to my husband gaps in employment.

WRS is fine for both of us. Registered on time and worked for over 12 months. Absence is also within limits, just short holiday few times per year.

[noajthan]

...

Thank you noajthan.

1) We are both trying to apply now with 5 years period counting from the beginning of 2010 so that if we successful we could apply for citizenship/neutralization. Does section 2 applies here then (I'm his sponsor as you suggested in your answer to 3)?

2) Evidence of treaty rights - do you mean section 9 A and B (as we're both from A8)? Or it's section 5.

3) Here again, I'm not sure what can we skip (which section) if I'm his sponsor.

4) I have been with the same employer for over 6 years. I only mentioned self-efficiency with regard to my husband gaps in employment.

WRS is fine for both of us. Registered on time and worked for over 12 months. Absence is also within limits, just short holiday few times per year.

1) If you are main applicant (in a joint application) then simply add husband as a family dependent.
I can't check the form as I'm on cellphone but, from memory, you don't need to fill in sponsor section (as you are your own sponsor).

If husband is sole applicant then you would add yourself in the sponsor section.

2) Treaty rights is, in your case, evidence of working for 5 years.
I can't check the form at the moment.

3) See 2

4) All good then.

Good that you had the foresight to fully comply with WRS.
That will make your case much more straightforward & removes some HO 'wriggle room'.

[andyrek]

1) If you are main applicant (in a joint application) then simply add husband as a family dependent.
I can't check the form as I'm on cellphone but, from memory, you don't need to fill in sponsor section (as you are your own sponsor).

If husband is sole applicant then you would add yourself in the sponsor section.

2) Treaty rights is, in your case, evidence of working for 5 years.
I can't check the form at the moment.

3) See 2

4) All good then.

Good that you had the foresight to fully comply with WRS.
That will make your case much more straightforward & removes some HO 'wriggle room'.

Thank you again.

I still have some doubts. There're too many references to sponsor in this form and I believe I'm not the only one who can't figure it out. I'll be grateful if you could correct my thinking:

1) Section 1 A and B - my details, Section 1 C - husband

2) We're skipping section 2

3) Section 3.1 I tick second option. Does 3.2 (first option) applies to my husband? If so, he's got Section 11 to fill in.

4) Section 5 - easy, we need 2 copies, one each

5) Section 9 A and B - do we both need to fill it in? That's not clear from the description.

6) Section 17 can be filled once for us both.

7) Documents:
- our photos and ID's
- marriage certificate? Does it need to be translated to English?
- P60's, etc - just mine?
- utility bills, etc. - with just my name or my husband's as well?

9) Section 19 - I sign it in part A

Anything missing here?

[andyrek]

I've read all available guides and huge number of topics from this forum and I still don't now how to fill this form.

I have two additional questions:

10) Does EEA family member (husband) is automatically granted PR when main applicant (me, also EEA) can satisfy treaty rights? In other words: would my husband be granted the same PR certificate if I just include him as a family member?

11) Does it matter if we got married in the middle of qualifying period that we're planning to document?

I know I've already asked a lot of questions but even though I've spent hours researching I really couldn't find anything that would clear this matter.

Please help me, if you know answer to any of my question.

[andyrek]

OK, I finally managed to get my head around of all my previous doubts. We're going to apply on one form with me as main applicant and my husband as family member - spouse. We have all documents we need:

- My P60's, contract, etc. to proof I'm qualified person exercising treaty rights for 5 years
- Our ID's and photos
- Our bills, tenancy agreements, etc. to poof we'd lived here continuously for 5 years
- WRS and all supporting documents
- Marriage certificate

The only concern I have is that we got married in the middle of the qualified period. We had been in relationship and living together for years before we got married though. Could you please advice if this could invalidate my husband's case?

[noajthan]

OK, I finally managed to get my head around of all my previous doubts. We're going to apply on one form with me as main applicant and my husband as family member - spouse. We have all documents we need:

...

The only concern I have is that we got married in the middle of the qualified period. We had been in relationship and living together for years before we got married though. Could you please advice if this could invalidate my husband's case?

I've scanned the above few posts (not gone through them with fine tooth comb) - you appear to be on right track.

For the period your were not married you will have to prove you were in a durable relationship 'akin to marriage' - not just boyfriend/girlfriend or fiance/fiancee type of relationship.
HO plays hardball in this area and will look for 2+ years of cohabitation & etc.

Applying as unmarried means your dependent is considered as an extended family member - different Regulations apply.

Do you have a 5-year period after you married but with both of you in UK and with sponsor exercising treaty rights continuously?

If married your spouse/dependent is a direct family member.
That will be much more straightforward.

[andyrek]

I've scanned the above few posts (not gone through them with fine tooth comb) - you appear to be on right track.

For the period your were not married you will have to prove you were in a durable relationship 'akin to marriage' - not just boyfriend/girlfriend or fiance/fiancee type of relationship.
HO plays hardball in this area and will look for 2+ years of cohabitation & etc.

Applying as unmarried means your dependent is considered as an extended family member - different Regulations apply.

Do you have a 5-year period after you married but with both of you in UK and with sponsor exercising treaty rights continuously?

If married your spouse/dependent is a direct family member.
That will be much more straightforward.

Thank's again for your quick answer noajthan

No, we have only 3 years, but we've been in durable relationship and lived together in UK for over a decade. This would be very easy to proof, I think. Can we still apply with EEA (PR) in this case and wait for them to ask for evidence of our relationship before marriage?

What about combining his status, say: he was "worker" (fortunately there's no gaps in his employment before our marriage) and became family member during qualified period? Is this even possible?

[noajthan]

Thank's again for your quick answer noajthan

No, we have only 3 years, but we've been in durable relationship and lived together in UK for over a decade. This would be very easy to proof, I think. Can we still apply with EEA (PR) in this case and wait for them to ask for evidence of our relationship before marriage?

What about combining his status, say: he was "worker" (fortunately there's no gaps in his employment before our marriage) and became family member during qualified period? Is this even possible?

No! don't wait for HO to ask for evidence of relationship. That approach invites a world of pain.

Evidence needs to be rock solid for a 5 year period.
Collate it all and submit it up front with your application.

Keep scan/copies of all docs, evidence, any supporting letter & the application form you submit - in case of HO issues down the line.

It is fine to mix/match qualified person categories;
eg worker plus student etc.
That approach is quite normal.

It is unusual to mix/match marital statuses.

Do you have a clearcut 5 year qualifying period as unmarried ie durable relationship?
That would be more straightforward.

[noajthan]

fyi - HO guidance on...

Direct family member:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf

Extended family member - see section on durable relationship 'akin to marriage':
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

Qualified person:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

[andyrek]

fyi - HO guidance on...

Direct family member:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf

Extended family member - see section on durable relationship 'akin to marriage':
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

Qualified person:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

Thank you. I've already read them all but the more I read the more severe headache I have I've also read The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006. The thing is that non of this documents says when direct family member relation needs to begin. It looks like there's a loophole in the regulations but I may be wrong.

I think we could select clearcut 5 years prior to our mariage but for extended family member in "Permanent rights of residence: qualifying conditions" there is this:

"Under regulation 8 of the regulations you cannot consider an applicant to be the extended family member of an EEA national until they have been issued either a:
- registration certificate, or
- residence card"

So the route will be longer, am I right? Our goal is BC. Wouldn't be easier then if I go alone for PR and BC first? Wouldn't then be easier for my husband to apply for PR and BC after I'm BC?

[noajthan]

...

Thank you. I've already read them all but the more I read the more severe headache I have I've also read The Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006. The thing is that non of this documents says when direct family member relation needs to begin. It looks like there's a loophole in the regulations but I may be wrong.

I think we could select clearcut 5 years prior to our mariage but for extended family member in "Permanent rights of residence: qualifying conditions" there is this:

...

So the route will be longer, am I right? Our goal is BC. Wouldn't be easier then if I go alone for PR and BC first? Wouldn't then be easier for my husband to apply for PR and BC after I'm BC?

Direct family member is for a spouse & clearly begins at marriage.

Unmarried couples do not include direct family members. They are extended family members - different regulations apply.
For unmarried people you have to show 2 years of durable relationship - then your 5 year PR clock needs to be running.

Yes, an unmarried partner in UK needs a mandatory RC; in comparison, for direct family members a RC is optional (although usually nice-to-have).

Although recent case law appears to challenge that position it is still set in stone in the Regulations, (for now).
So, do you have RC/s?

If you do not have the expected RC you may have to battle in court (invoking recent case law) to overturn that requirement for EFM to have RC.

No! Do not make that mistake & become a BC too early.
If not careful your case will be snookered!

If you do become a BC you will not be considered an EEA national (by UK) anymore (even though you are a dual national).
That means you couldn't sponsor any family member in the UK under EU rules anymore.

If one person acquires PR first, just stay on PR until the other person catches up.
Then when both have PR (& PR card) you could both shoot for privilege of citizenship.

[andyrek]

Direct family member is for a spouse & clearly begins at marriage.

Unmarried couples do not include direct family members. They are extended family members - different regulations apply.
For unmarried people you have to show 2 years of durable relationship - then your 5 year PR clock needs to be running.

So what steps are required for that option (5 years prior to our marriage and extended family member)?

No! Do not make that mistake & become a BC too early.
If not careful your case will be snookered!

If you do become a BC you will not be considered an EEA national (by UK) anymore (even though you are a dual national).
That means you couldn't sponsor any family member in the UK under EU rules anymore.

If one person acquires PR first, just stay on PR until the other person catches up.
Then when both have PR (& PR card) you could both shoot for privilege of citizenship.

That's eye-opener! I didn't know that. Thank you.

Looks like my husband gaps in employment will most likely delay realisation of our plans

[andyrek]

Do you think it would be waste of time applying based on combination of "worker" status and direct family member for my husband, attaching cover letter with explanation? We're both EEA nationals, working and don't need to secure each other immigration status applying for extended family member residence. We just want to proof that we qualify for PR (I hope). I know our case is not straightforward but, from what I've read so far, it's not mentioned anywhere as invalid. I personally like challenges but I am not sure if it's worth it.

[noajthan]

Do you think it would be waste of time applying based on combination of "worker" status and direct family member for my husband, attaching cover letter with explanation? We're both EEA nationals, working and don't need to secure each other immigration status applying for extended family member residence. We just want to proof that we qualify for PR (I hope). I know our case is not straightforward but, from what I've read so far, it's not mentioned anywhere as invalid. I personally like challenges but I am not sure if it's worth it.

If you mean can each of you apply in your own right then yes you can.

But if husband has gaps (& also no CSI) and HO decide his PR clock was stopped then his application will most likely be refused.

If you can make the case you are a couple (with all necessary evidence) then he can benefit from your more continuous record of treaty rights.

If you have been a couple for a decade then you are likely to have acquired PR already - a few years ago.

Why not try to collate your evidence & fill out the application form on that basis;
Have a few dry runs, for a period of say 2006 - 2011 or 2007 - 2012 or something like that.
See how it shapes up.

[andyrek]

If you mean can each of you apply in your own right then yes you can.

I meant applying together, me as main applicant and qualified person, and my husband as combination of direct family member and "worker" prior to marriage, for period 2010 - 2015.

If you can make the case you are a couple (with all necessary evidence) then he can benefit from your more continuous record of treaty rights.

If you have been a couple for a decade then you are likely to have acquired PR already - a few years ago.

Why not try to collate your evidence & fill out the application form on that basis;
Have a few dry runs, for a period of say 2006 - 2011 or 2007 - 2012 or something like that.
See how it shapes up.

Which forms do we need in that case/what steps are required?

And thank you for all your invaluable help noajthan. I really appreciate this.

[andyrek]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... s_v3_0.pdf page 18:

A person acquires permanent residence if they have resided in the UK in line with the
regulations for a continuous period of 5 years. This can include time spent as:
 an EEA national qualified person
 the family member of a qualified person
 the family member of an EEA national with a right of permanent residence
 a family member who has retained a right of residence under regulation 10 of the
regulations
An applicant can rely on residence in more than one of the categories listed above to make
up the 5 year period as long as that period was continuous.
For example, an EEA national may have resided in the UK for a period of time as the direct
family member of an EEA national before becoming a qualified person in their own right.

Doesn't that sound exactly like our example? My husband had been EEA national qualified person before he became the family member of a qualified person (me). Am I right here?

[noajthan]

If you mean can each of you apply in your own right then yes you can.

I meant applying together, me as main applicant and qualified person, and my husband as combination of direct family member and "worker" prior to marriage, for period 2010 - 2015.
...

Which forms do we need in that case/what steps are required?

And thank you for all your invaluable help noajthan. I really appreciate this.

Do you mean:
husband was firstly a worker in own right for period 20aa- 20bb (with good supporting evidence of his own for exercising treaty rights);
then
you married and he became your direct family member; ie a direct family dependent with you as sponsor from 20bb - 20cc
- in this second period you have the good supporting evidence; his patchy evidence doesn't matter as you are now exercising treaty rights, (not him).

If that's what you mean not sure how you can express that on the joint form.
(I see you may be adopting this approach to avoid the effort/evidence or perceived complications of demonstrating a durable relationship).

You may be able to make a case like that but I think you will need 2 forms - or else 'go commando' & apply purely by letter.
(The form is not a mandatory legal requirement).

See current ('monster') PR form & guidance here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... orm-eea-pr

You will have to package your evidence & spoonfeed the caseworker with unimpeachable evidence to eliminate any 'wriggle room' and risk of a refusal.

[andyrek]

Do you mean:
husband was firstly a worker in own right for period 20aa- 20bb (with good supporting evidence of his own for exercising treaty rights);
then
you married and he became your direct family member; ie a direct family dependent with you as sponsor from 20bb - 20cc
- in this second period you have the good supporting evidence; his patchy evidence doesn't matter as you are now exercising treaty rights, (not him).

If that's what you mean not sure how you can express that on the joint form.
(I see you may be adopting this approach to avoid the effort/evidence or perceived complications of demonstrating a durable relationship).

You may be able to make a case like that but I think you will need 2 forms - or else 'go commando' & apply purely by letter.
(The form is not a mandatory legal requirement).

See current ('monster') PR form & guidance here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... orm-eea-pr

You will have to package your evidence & spoonfeed the caseworker with unimpeachable evidence to eliminate any 'wriggle room' and risk of a refusal.

Thank you noajthan. Did you see my previous post? It looks like they are already instructed how to proceed in this situation.

[noajthan]

Thank you noajthan. Did you see my previous post? It looks like they are already instructed how to proceed in this situation.

Yes, so it's all about your evidence & a dry-run to see how it shapes up in practice.

Keep scans/copies of everything - for reference.

[andyrek]

Thank you very much

I'm sorting out our all documents now and I was wondering if I should include anything (photos?) supporting genuineness of our marriage apart from marriage certificate. Do they threat marriage of two EEA nationals as seriously as when non-EEA members are involved?

[noajthan]

Thank you very much

I'm sorting out our all documents now and I was wondering if I should include anything (photos?) supporting genuineness of our marriage apart from marriage certificate. Do they threat marriage of two EEA nationals as seriously as when non-EEA members are involved?

Good question.
Not sure.

Probably no harm playing safe with a few tasteful & carefully chosen photos.
Shows caseworker you are human - worst case they are simply ignored.

[Redhotman]

Hi, I’m in a process of doing the application and I have similar case: both eea citizens, came together just over 5 years ago, I have gaps in my employment, partner doesn’t, we are unmarried but lived all the time together and have 2 kids born here in uk.
What did the author of that subject did at the end and did you get your pr’s? I’m also in doubt and confused as she will be sponsor in section 2 who doesn’t have pr, should she also be main applicant in section 1 and me family member...?

[Redhotman]

Anyone, please