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WITH THE NEW RULING ON OVERSTAYERS! WHATS NEXT FOR US!!!!!!!

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sally12345
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WITH THE NEW RULING ON OVERSTAYERS! WHATS NEXT FOR US!!!!!!!

Post by sally12345 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:15 am

Hi All,

To my understanding there has been a new ruling that has passed recently, that overstayers who go back home are finding it EXTREMLY HARD to apply for a spouse visa. I hear refusals are coming thick and fast!

My question is this what are overstayers suppose to do NOW!

1) Do you try and regularise you status by going home with the BIG risk of never seeing your family again? I.e. Wife and Child/en

2) Or do you stay and apply from here? The chances are you will get refused and HO will tell you to go home and reapply which is mad.

3) Or stay and watch your back for 10 years or so and then apply.

And for overstayers that can’t get married in the UK anymore like my partner! What the hell do we do!

Someone please help I am going out of my mind with worry and my work is getting affected by this all.

Thanks
:cry:

paulp
Diamond Member
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Post by paulp » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:41 am

Is there a case for a Judicial Review under human rights? Otherwise, it might come to lobbying your mp and government for a change in the rules.

jimquk
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Post by jimquk » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:44 am

At the moment all we can do is wait for the appeals to be heard and see how things develop.

The bottom line is that the Government, backed by the press and public opinion, can say, you guys got yourself in this situation, we are under no obligation to ever find a way for illegals to remain. As for human rights, this would only come in if you could show that it was impossible for you to live in the other partner's country - for example if their immigration rules made it impossible for you to go there together, if you would be at real risk of serious abuse....... Even then, it would be difficult.

Sorry if I sound negative, but we have to be realistic, and hope for the best from the courts.
The Refused are coming day-by-day nearer to freedom.

sally12345
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Location: london

Post by sally12345 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 11:47 am

jimquk wrote:At the moment all we can do is wait for the appeals to be heard and see how things develop.

The bottom line is that the Government, backed by the press and public opinion, can say, you guys got yourself in this situation, we are under no obligation to ever find a way for illegals to remain. As for human rights, this would only come in if you could show that it was impossible for you to live in the other partner's country - for example if their immigration rules made it impossible for you to go there together, if you would be at real risk of serious abuse....... Even then, it would be difficult.

Sorry if I sound negative, but we have to be realistic, and hope for the best from the courts.
Thankyou for your input You are only telling the truth. I guess we have to sit and wait we were planning on going back in Oct of next year so lets see if any changes come in by then. good ones we hope.

a lawyer said that we should apply here under Un married partner! but thats not going to work I think?
why are they messing with people lives?

paulp
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Post by paulp » Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:52 pm

sally12345 wrote:why are they messing with people lives?
The home office is currently under pressure because of the undeported foreign prisoners, underestimation of immigrants from the EU accession countries and underestimation of overall number of immigrants.

OL7MAX
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Post by OL7MAX » Sat Nov 17, 2007 1:20 pm

I'm not convinced that the HO is correct in law to turn all applications down purely on the grounds of overstay even if that overstay was intentional and illegal. I've a personal interest and I've read the erstwhile "concessions", now rules, and followed various cases and the reasons for refusal and anecdotal reports of what some suggest is a trend for ECOs to turn down applications purely on the grounds of overstay.

All this needs is a good lawyer and someone with deep pockets willing to test the courts.

vin123
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Post by vin123 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:04 pm

Ok, I know for sure that my post will be taken in an all negative bashing aspect, but one basic question, and please do not take this is an "attitude" question.

A spouse needs a visa, simple - he or she could have got "attempted" to get that while his/her stay here was legal.

OK, god forbid he/she overstayed and then entered into a relationship (perfectly legal) while :

a) Visa was invalid
b) Potentially trying to find a "route" while overstaying
c) Somebody knowingly helping him/her to find that "route"

Overstayer (lets assume for simplicity that he/she doesn't have any kids) goes back to his/her home country and apply for a spouse visa - if the couselling officer has suspected and found suspicious "results" based on questions on all the above 3 does he or she really deserve a spouse visa ? Is there a law applicable there on the above case or general grounds of decision based on discretion.

OL7MAX wrote:I'm not convinced that the HO is correct in law to turn all applications down purely on the grounds of overstay even if that overstay was intentional and illegal. I've a personal interest and I've read the erstwhile "concessions", now rules, and followed various cases and the reasons for refusal and anecdotal reports of what some suggest is a trend for ECOs to turn down applications purely on the grounds of overstay.

All this needs is a good lawyer and someone with deep pockets willing to test the courts.

missbenz5474
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Post by missbenz5474 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:00 pm

As i posted my husband was recntly refused a spousal visa and the reasons for this were because he had overstayed and worked whilst he was here.How ever when the ECO gave him his reasons he told him to keep his family unit together and that they cannot refuse him forever.So i see it as the ECO's are just using the overstay as just another reason to refuse which must be able to be changed either at a appeal or re applying after all its all about making money at the posts they work at and the prices of such visa applications being expensive now they have gone up

OL7MAX
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Post by OL7MAX » Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:17 pm

Cynical, yes, but you may have a point. The fees are proving a nice little earner (with a nice monopoly for punitive pricing that bears no relation to processing cost). Give the pen pushers some targets in percentage of applications refused, have some in-house competition/reward for the ECO with the best game score, and everyone's smiling. The cash flow makes bosses happy, the huge number of refusals makes for good press copy and happy politicians, lawyers will make more money from appeals and reapplications, and who gives a damn for the human cost among overstayers?

tinux
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Location: london

Post by tinux » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:23 pm

the fees they charge are crazy and unjust.
how can one pay and then if turned down he or she looses that money???
crazy. it is called Thief by deception

sally12345
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Location: london

Post by sally12345 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:40 pm

missbenz5474 wrote:As i posted my husband was recntly refused a spousal visa and the reasons for this were because he had overstayed and worked whilst he was here.How ever when the ECO gave him his reasons he told him to keep his family unit together and that they cannot refuse him forever.So i see it as the ECO's are just using the overstay as just another reason to refuse which must be able to be changed either at a appeal or re applying after all its all about making money at the posts they work at and the prices of such visa applications being expensive now they have gone up
Hiya whats going on with your appeal any news yet? stay strong. How long have you been fighting for your husbund for?

paulp
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Post by paulp » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:46 pm

I have a question for all those who are having problems getting visas for their spouses. If the home office still won't budge after 1-2 years, would you consider moving abroad to be with your loved ones?

sally12345
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Location: london

Post by sally12345 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:07 pm

paulp wrote:I have a question for all those who are having problems getting visas for their spouses. If the home office still won't budge after 1-2 years, would you consider moving abroad to be with your loved ones?
Hi, I would keep fighting untill the end. Yu have to shw to show then that they cant win! I have my reasons why I could not live in my Husbunds homeland! but if I could not see a end to the problem then I would really start thinking about living in JA

Very good Question!

sally12345
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Location: london

Post by sally12345 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:17 pm

sally12345 wrote:
paulp wrote:I have a question for all those who are having problems getting visas for their spouses. If the home office still won't budge after 1-2 years, would you consider moving abroad to be with your loved ones?
Hi, I would keep fighting untill the end. You have to show them i.e Home office that they cant win!

I have my reasons why I could not live in my Husbunds homeland! but if I could not see a end to the problem in terms of waiting 3-4 years then I would really start thinking about living in JA I ve my partner to death and jsut could not live without him. Now that we have a child it makes our bond tighter!

Very good Question!
sorry for mistakes!

paulp
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Post by paulp » Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:57 pm

sally12345 wrote:Hi, I would keep fighting untill the end. Yu have to shw to show then that they cant win! I have my reasons why I could not live in my Husbunds homeland! but if I could not see a end to the problem then I would really start thinking about living in JA

Very good Question!
There is also the option of moving to an EU country, getting residence and citizenship in 5+ years and coming back. But all these options involve large upheavals in family life.

sally12345
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Location: london

Post by sally12345 » Sat Nov 17, 2007 9:07 pm

paulp wrote:
sally12345 wrote:Hi, I would keep fighting untill the end. Yu have to shw to show then that they cant win! I have my reasons why I could not live in my Husbunds homeland! but if I could not see a end to the problem then I would really start thinking about living in JA

Very good Question!
There is also the option of moving to an EU country, getting residence and citizenship in 5+ years and coming back. But all these options involve large upheavals in family life.
I argee with you Paulp. It would not be nice on our home life. And I really would not want to mess my child/ren around its so unfair to them. life is unfair I guess What would you do?

MikeKorea
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Post by MikeKorea » Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:06 pm

paulp wrote:I have a question for all those who are having problems getting visas for their spouses. If the home office still won't budge after 1-2 years, would you consider moving abroad to be with your loved ones?
My position is even simpler. I'm outside the UK and my wife has been refused re-entry. So as things stand, I've no choice but to live outside my own country for the rest of my life, starting from now. And let me tell you, that's a hard thing to have to come to terms with.

I know there's a perception that the press especially is entirely negative towards immigrants. But there's still a lot of immigration anyway, so I wonder how it might look to people when they find out that while Britain's borders are still relatively open to foreigners there are British people who are being effectively prevented from returning to Britain to live? I've been surprised to find that the kind of people I'd have expected to be unsympathetic have seized on my case as evidence of everything that's wrong with immigration policy in the UK. Perhaps it plays to their prejudices but that tells me that this policy shift isn't necessarily going to turn out to be a vote-winner for the Government.

I wonder if Labour, in the run-up to the next general election, want to be portrayed as a the Party that keeps British people out of Britain? That's a question I'm asking my MP.

There are people on these boards who want to see people punished, but I believe the application of justice should be proportionate to the infraction. A policy which makes permanent exiles of British citizens seems both completely disproportionate and vindictive. If we're going to practice this kind of extreme justice then what's next? Shall we ban anyone who's ever received a speeding ticket from ever driving again? Once you've made a mistake, should the punishment be for life? Should the punishment extend to those around you?

People make mistakes. So do we practice proportionate justice or extreme justice? Well the answer is, predictably enough, when it's government minister, we practice no justice at all:

Home secretary: I smoked cannabis
"I did break the law... I was wrong... drugs are wrong"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6905886.stm

What happened to her? Absolutely nothing of course. No question of her resigning or any other sanction. I lose my country, my home. She loses... nothing at all. She says:

"I think in some ways I have learnt my lesson"

She doesn't exactly sound convincing - it's a good job she's not giving that line to one of her Government's ECOs - but I suppose she's asking for our understanding and forgiveness... how wonderfully ironic.

paulp
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Post by paulp » Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:34 pm

Mike, I hear you. Each overstayer who is prevented from coming back into the country counts towards reducing the immigration statistics by one. I'm not sure they've been as far as thinking about justice.

OL7MAX
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Post by OL7MAX » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:18 pm

Mike, my sympathies. In many cases British kids are being kept away from the British education and health care they are entitled to.

EdgeHillMole
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Post by EdgeHillMole » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:19 pm

IMHO, British Citizens like Mike need to go to the British media and tell their stories. Try to get this info published.

The British people have a right to know that the HO is not just messing around with the lives of immigrants - they're also messing around with the lives of British Citizens.

I smell more Tribunal Cases and Judicial Reviews coming on...How many JRs will this be - four and climbing?
Last edited by EdgeHillMole on Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PROUD to be part of the 2008 European Capital of Culture

sally12345
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Post by sally12345 » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:44 pm

MikeKorea wrote:
paulp wrote:I have a question for all those who are having problems getting visas for their spouses. If the home office still won't budge after 1-2 years, would you consider moving abroad to be with your loved ones?
My position is even simpler. I'm outside the UK and my wife has been refused re-entry. So as things stand, I've no choice but to live outside my own country for the rest of my life, starting from now. And let me tell you, that's a hard thing to have to come to terms with.

I know there's a perception that the press especially is entirely negative towards immigrants. But there's still a lot of immigration anyway, so I wonder how it might look to people when they find out that while Britain's borders are still relatively open to foreigners there are British people who are being effectively prevented from returning to Britain to live? I've been surprised to find that the kind of people I'd have expected to be unsympathetic have seized on my case as evidence of everything that's wrong with immigration policy in the UK. Perhaps it plays to their prejudices but that tells me that this policy shift isn't necessarily going to turn out to be a vote-winner for the Government.

I wonder if Labour, in the run-up to the next general election, want to be portrayed as a the Party that keeps British people out of Britain? That's a question I'm asking my MP.

There are people on these boards who want to see people punished, but I believe the application of justice should be proportionate to the infraction. A policy which makes permanent exiles of British citizens seems both completely disproportionate and vindictive. If we're going to practice this kind of extreme justice then what's next? Shall we ban anyone who's ever received a speeding ticket from ever driving again? Once you've made a mistake, should the punishment be for life? Should the punishment extend to those around you?

People make mistakes. So do we practice proportionate justice or extreme justice? Well the answer is, predictably enough, when it's government minister, we practice no justice at all:

Home secretary: I smoked cannabis
"I did break the law... I was wrong... drugs are wrong"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6905886.stm

What happened to her? Absolutely nothing of course. No question of her resigning or any other sanction. I lose my country, my home. She loses... nothing at all. She says:

"I think in some ways I have learnt my lesson"

She doesn't exactly sound convincing - it's a good job she's not giving that line to one of her Government's ECOs - but I suppose she's asking for our understanding and forgiveness... how wonderfully ironic.

Well said Mike I argee, with everything you have said! thankyou!!!!!

Docterror
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Post by Docterror » Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:59 pm

There are people on these boards who want to see people punished, but I believe the application of justice should be proportionate to the infraction
I think that the vast majority of the people even the ones not acquainted with a board like this will agree with that. Very few people would want overstayers banned for life and an attempt to bring attention to the predicament faced by people in your situation should yield results.
Jabi

avjones
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Post by avjones » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:22 am

I can't see how this will easily lead to a JR.

Judicial review is only available when other domestic remedies have been exhausted. Someone who is refused a spouse visa, for example, has a right of appeal to the AIT. So JR isn't an option.

I think this will swiftly wend its way up to the Court of Appeal.
I am not, and cannot, offer legal advice to particular people. I can only discuss general areas of immigration law.

People should always consider obtaining professional advice about their own particular circumstances.

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