L-I-R Pregnant English girl &Indian overstayer..Marriage?

[ParadiseSeeker]

Long story and not 100% I got the right board but here goes.

I'm 21, British, and pregnant with twins. I met my partner 4 years ago not long before his visa expired. We flirted on/off but didn't get into a proper relationship until 2015. We were together led then 2 months before moving in together (due to problems roding to my religion - ex communicated due to supposed fornication). We have been living together ever since and recently found out I'm having twins. We are over the moon.

We both want to get married before they are born though. He had overstayed over 3 years and has been working since day 1 despite coming on a student visa. We know that if we go to a registry office it will result in detention and removal from the UK. We could wait until next year (we were told we can definitely get a visa through having the twins) but due to my religious beliefs and due to his parents and their culture, we ought to be married before the babies arrive. Gretna is an impossibility but not sure about isle of man. Not sure what to do and need advice please!

[noajthan]

Reality checks...

Anchor babies may not swing it for your fiance;

Have you dug deep into fiance's motives?

Fiance's illegal working compounds the problem;

What is the reason you cannot relocate to his country?
(kids are very adaptable at young age)

[secret.simon]

we were told we can definitely get a visa through having the twins)

That is bad advice. There is no guarantee that having British children will get him leave to remain.

He will need to prove why the children can not relocate to his country of origin (India). If he claims paternity, the children will have Indian and British citizenship and there is no reason why they and you can not relocate with him to India.

Fiance's illegal working compounds the problem;

This really compounds the matter. Your significant other has proven that he is capable of deception by coming to the UK on a student visa, working from day one and then being an overstayer. Not content with breaking one rule, he chose to break two back-to-back.

Have you dug deep into fiance's motives?

I agree with Noajthan that you need to look at your significant other's motives. How does he react if you tell that even having British children is no guarantee of getting a British visa?

I believe (I could be wrong) that if he leaves voluntarily and the two of you get married abroad, his previous overstay is not taken into account if he were to apply for a spouse visa (you will need to be earning £18,600 per annum for that to succeed). It would impact his ILR and British citizenship applications, but he would be able to come and live and work in the UK. But I could be wrong and will wait for others to advise you further on this point.

[ParadiseSeeker]

Reality checks...

Anchor babies may not swing it for your fiance;

Have you dug deep into fiance's motives?

Fiance's illegal working compounds the problem;

What is the reason you cannot relocate to his country?
(kids are very adaptable at young age)

I was advised by an immigration lawyer in Birmingham to just have kids with him asap and that would sort everything out ie he would definitely get leave to remain.

My fiance is someone I've known 4 years. He has had many opportunities with European women in the past and one actually pushed for marriage (Lithuanian I think) but he didn't want to marry her. He had only intended on being here initially for 6 months. He had previously lived and studied in Cyprus. He has 1 daughter living with her mother in india who he hasn't seen since she was about 3 years old but is in contact with her and his parents almost every day. He wanted marriage before children but I actually forced having kids upon him knowing it could mean he becomes legal here. I am well aware that if he leaves the UK, it could mean he gets a 10 year ban.

The business he works for is sadly the one I also work for. They are Indian as well and employ mainly Polish and Asians on a wage of 4.40 per hour with no sick pay or holiday pay and only a 20 minute break for 8.5 hours work. He needed money to send home and thus did this.

I have many personal reasons I do not wish to relocate. Firstly, I am only 21 (partner is 30) and I have never left the UK. I don't cope well with hot weather (suffer with heat stroke frequently) and I have many other health complaints and what seems to be a low immune system and I do not want to put my health in more danger. Being pregnant doesn't help with all of that. I am also very close to my own family and here we have freedom of religion. In india, the people who follow my religion have been subject to much persecution. Especially since Modi came into power, Hindu's have subjected Christians, Muslims, and other minority faiths to physical abuse amongst other things. I do not want to put my children or myself in danger and on top of that, my partner also wants to attend religious meetings of my faith which would outcast him in his area.

[ParadiseSeeker]

(1) why is there no guarantee children would give him leave to remain?

(2) I am hoping using religious grounds and my health would be just reason to stay in the UK and not leave. As well as me being unable to speak Punjabi or Hindi and with my health being unable to do certain kinds of work and even work for long (although I'm sure I wouldn't be expected to work, I hear an Indian citizen gets approximately 100 pounds a month which is peanuts and not much to live on).

(3) fair point ie deception. He did apply to renew his visa but got rejected and then appealed this but got rejected again. He wasn't willing to leave the country at the time.

(4) He is as I am, fully aware even having children might not get him a visa. I was the one to suggest children and he finally reluctantly agreed after seeing our options. We were advised by a friend who was in the same boat some years ago that we could marry in gretna but found out that this is no longer an option. I then realised there could be a possibility of isle of man or even jersey but apparently their checks could also lead to him being detained and sent home.
We are not willing to have him sent back even voluntarily for we know it will more than likely result in a ban due to overstaying and with me being pregnant right now and already struggling I will be unable to magically get a job earning 18 or more thousand a year and juggling motherhood. We also don't want the twins to be without a father for what could be 3 years even.

[noajthan]

Reality checks...

Anchor babies may not swing it for your fiance;

Have you dug deep into fiance's motives?

Fiance's illegal working compounds the problem;

What is the reason you cannot relocate to his country?
(kids are very adaptable at young age)

I was advised by an immigration lawyer in Birmingham to just have kids with him asap and that would sort everything out ie he would definitely get leave to remain.
...

You have been given some of the worst advice I have heard for quite some time by your advisor.

You do not have to go anywhere. But the life choices you are taking are extremely limiting.

Unless fiance regularises his position under UK law your future appears as bleak as his.
(As he is now, in denial and under the radar, he will not be eligible for legitimate work, legal pay, will remain unable to rent or buy accommodation, probably not even drive legally etc etc).

So its all about you now.
Under a spouse visa you will need to meet the income (or savings) requirements. So even if your work is legal that current employer is doing you no favours.

[Casa]

As noajthan and secret.simon have advised, you have been dangerously misled by your solicitor and you probably now realise (much too late) that you have got yourselves into a bit of a mess.
1. Your employer is obviously employing illegal workers and is likely to be 'visited' by Border Officers, followed by a £10,000 fine for each illegal employee.
2. In any visa HO application/interview your fiance will be asked where he is employed. (see 1)
3. You say that he started working from day one when he arrived on his student visa. Was he enrolled with a genuine or a bogus college?
4. You have described a classic case of attempting to gain legal residence by what the Home Office view as an 'anchor baby' application.
5. As you are unmarried, the HO will require your fiance to undergo a DNA test to prove paternity. This article by Free Movement will clearly explain post 2015 changes in registering his name on the birth certificate. Note this sentence "provided there is no evidence to suggest that their evidence is false (e.g. given in the hope of gaining an immigration advantage)"
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/proving ... tificates/
6. You are already aware of the difficulties in marrying in the UK. You can only marry in a Home Office designated Registry Office. The Registrar is then legally bound to notify the HO who can then extend the notification period from 28-70 days in order to interview you both before the wedding can go ahead. They're unlikely to wish you a happy wedding day and let your fiance go on his way and this will be when they may well put removal plans into action.
7. Not being able to adjust to the climate in India won't be considered as 'compelling reasons' and inter-faith marriages are becoming more common and acceptable in India. The HO generally take the view that apart from exceptional circumstances, young children can easily adapt to life outside of the UK.
8. I assume that your fiance is working with genuine (not false) documents?

[Petaltop]

He has 1 daughter living with her mother in india who he hasn't seen since she was about 3 years old but is in contact with her and his parents almost every day. He wanted marriage before children .........................

Are you sure he isn't already married to the mother of his child?

[Petaltop]

d you probably now realise (much too late) that you have got yourselves into a bit of a mess.
1. Your employer is obviously employing illegal workers and is likely to be 'visited' by Border Officers, followed by a £10,000 fine for each illegal employee.

Up to 5 years in jail now that the Immigration Act 2016 became law last week and employing illegals and working illegaly is now a criminal al offence. Up to 51 weeks in jail for an illegal worker if they are in England or Wales.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... 35/enacted

Refusing to pay the minimum wage of £7.20 an hour is another criminal offence.
https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wag ... nimum-wage

[Casa]

He has 1 daughter living with her mother in india who he hasn't seen since she was about 3 years old but is in contact with her and his parents almost every day. He wanted marriage before children .........................

Are you sure he isn't already married to the mother of his child?

+1 A vary valid point which I missed.

[Casa]

d you probably now realise (much too late) that you have got yourselves into a bit of a mess.
1. Your employer is obviously employing illegal workers and is likely to be 'visited' by Border Officers, followed by a £10,000 fine for each illegal employee.

Up to 5 years in jail now that the Immigration Act 2016 became law last week and employing illegals and working illegaly is now a criminal al offence. Up to 51 weeks in jail for an illegal worker if they are in England or Wales.

Refusing to pay the minimum wage of £7.20 an hour is another criminal offence.

Thank you @Petaltop. I'd just started to read through the new Act to find the relevant section.

[Petaltop]

He has 1 daughter living with her mother in india who he hasn't seen since she was about 3 years old but is in contact with her and his parents almost every day. He wanted marriage before children .........................

Are you sure he isn't already married to the mother of his child?

+1 A vary valid point which I missed.

It was the first thing I thought of. Young girls can be very easy targets for older men.

I'm 21, British, and pregnant with twins. I met my partner 4 years ago not long before his visa expired. We flirted on/off but didn't get into a proper relationship until 2015.

He had overstayed over 3 years and has been working since day 1 despite coming on a student visa.

He had only intended on being here initially for 6 months. He had previously lived and studied in Cyprus.

[Petaltop]

Thank you @Petaltop. I'd just started to read through the new Act to find the relevant section.

I added the links to the relevant parts, after you posted. Sorry, I should have put them in my original post.

[Casa]

Appreciated Petaltop. Thank you.

[Petaltop]

And these.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/immi ... yal-assent

https://www.gov.uk/government/collectio ... ll-2015-16

[secret.simon]

He has 1 daughter living with her mother in india who he hasn't seen since she was about 3 years old but is in contact with her and his parents almost every day. He wanted marriage before children .........................

Are you sure he isn't already married to the mother of his child?

+1 A very valid point which I missed.

If he is still married (in Indian law) to the mother of his daughter, that will make him incapable of contracting a valid marriage with you in the UK. And were he to go through with "marrying" you in the UK in such a circumstance, he would be adding bigamy to his not-very-short list of crimes. With such a list of crimes, his "good character" is definitely in question and he will likely not be eligible for citizenship any time soon.

On a side note, re the Immigration Act 2016, while it did get Royal Assent last week, most modern Acts of Parliament, especially massive ones like the Immigration Act 2016, do not commence at Royal Assent, but give powers to the Secretary of State to commence specific sections at specified dates by order.

Generally, such orders can not commence any section for two months after Royal Assent, unless the approval of the Law Officers (Attorney-General/Solicitor-General) is obtained in advance.

So the offences in the Immigration Act 2016 may not be in effect just yet, though they may come into force soon.

[ParadiseSeeker]

[quote="noajthan"][quote="ParadiseSeeker"][quote="noajthan"]Reality checks...

Anchor babies may not swing it for your fiance;

Have you dug deep into fiance's motives?

Fiance's illegal working compounds the problem;

What is the reason you cannot relocate to his country?
(kids are very adaptable at young age)[/quote]

I was advised by an immigration lawyer in Birmingham to just have kids with him asap and that would sort everything out ie he would definitely get leave to remain.
...[/quote]

You have been given some of the worst advice I have heard for quite some time by your advisor.

You do not have to go anywhere. But the life choices you are taking are extremely limiting.

Unless fiance regularises his position under UK law your future appears as bleak as his.
(As he is now, in denial and under the radar, he will not be eligible for legitimate work, legal pay, will remain unable to rent or buy accommodation, probably not even drive legally etc etc).

So its all about you now.
Under a spouse visa you will need to meet the income (or savings) requirements. So even if your work is legal that current employer is doing you no favours.[/quote]

This advisor is the go to immigration lawyer in Birmingham. We have punjabi friends who have used him before and actually told us to see him. We went with my family and he told us within 5 minutes that we have no hopes unless we have kids. Which leaves to decide whether we want to spend the next few years apart trying to get him back here after sending him home, OR we have kids. He said the sooner we have kids the better. It'd cost a few grand to sort it but partner would have a visa within 3-6 months of applying.

The only thing partner does is rent a room with me and goes to work each day earning a pittance like me. He doesn't swear doesn't drink doesn't smoke doesn't do drugs and he treats all people with respect and consideration. Yes, he has overstayed and yes it was not the best thing to do, but at least he re and plied for his visa and appealed the decision. He could have done nothing.

[ParadiseSeeker]

As noajthan and secret.simon have advised, you have been dangerously misled by your solicitor and you probably now realise (much too late) that you have got yourselves into a bit of a mess.
1. Your employer is obviously employing illegal workers and is likely to be 'visited' by Border Officers, followed by a £10,000 fine for each illegal employee.
2. In any visa HO application/interview your fiance will be asked where he is employed. (see 1)
3. You say that he started working from day one when he arrived on his student visa. Was he enrolled with a genuine or a bogus college?
4. You have described a classic case of attempting to gain legal residence by what the Home Office view as an 'anchor baby' application.
5. As you are unmarried, the HO will require your fiance to undergo a DNA test to prove paternity. This article by Free Movement will clearly explain post 2015 changes in registering his name on the birth certificate. Note this sentence "provided there is no evidence to suggest that their evidence is false (e.g. given in the hope of gaining an immigration advantage)"
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/proving ... tificates/
6. You are already aware of the difficulties in marrying in the UK. You can only marry in a Home Office designated Registry Office. The Registrar is then legally bound to notify the HO who can then extend the notification period from 28-70 days in order to interview you both before the wedding can go ahead. They're unlikely to wish you a happy wedding day and let your fiance go on his way and this will be when they may well put removal plans into action.
7. Not being able to adjust to the climate in India won't be considered as 'compelling reasons' and inter-faith marriages are becoming more common and acceptable in India. The HO generally take the view that apart from exceptional circumstances, young children can easily adapt to life outside of the UK.
8. I assume that your fiance is working with genuine (not false) documents?

(1) my employer has been doing this for a long time and getting away with it.
(2) that's ok- I'm against my employers and if they get into trouble so be it
(3) no idea ie college. I will ask.
(4) of course. He was reluctant but if it works I was going to go ahead.
(5) a dna test is no problem. I lost my virginity to my partner and have never slept with another man. Only my partner. So they are 100% his.
(6) which is why we were curious as to whether it would be possible to marry somewhere like the Isle of man where passports aren't necessary. But apparently the borders are checked well.
(7) young children can adapt of course, but I do not want to put my family in danger in terms of our religious stance. I was previously one of Jehovah's witnesses and want to return (need to be married before I'm accepted back) but this religion due to opinions on blood among other things would mean our lives could be made difficult by those around us. I had friends of the same faith in india who were being persecuted for their faith. I don't want this.
(8) he has no documents. Everything is cash in hand and secretive amongst all.

[Casa]

In my honest opinion, you have been given false hope by the Immigration advisor that having children will secure your partner's right to remain. The new Immigration Act which has just been passed through Parliament, following Royal Assent, intends to ensure the following:
“Those with no right to be in the UK should return home – they can do so voluntarily, but if not we will seek to remove them.
“Through the Immigration Act 2014, we introduced a ‘deport first, appeal later’ rule for foreign national offenders
“And now, through the Immigration Bill, we will now remove even more illegal immigrants by extending this rule to all immigration appeals including where a so-called right to family life is involved, apart from asylum claims.”

Have you seen evidence of your partner's divorce?

[ParadiseSeeker]

He has 1 daughter living with her mother in india who he hasn't seen since she was about 3 years old but is in contact with her and his parents almost every day. He wanted marriage before children .........................

Are you sure he isn't already married to the mother of his child?

Certain. She was an on/off girlfriend who ended up pregnant and with my partners bad boy ways his parents just accepted it and hoped he would grow up. He was about 21 at the time she was born I believe. Might be wrong with that but think so.

[ParadiseSeeker]

d you probably now realise (much too late) that you have got yourselves into a bit of a mess.
1. Your employer is obviously employing illegal workers and is likely to be 'visited' by Border Officers, followed by a £10,000 fine for each illegal employee.

Up to 5 years in jail now that the Immigration Act 2016 became law last week and employing illegals and working illegaly is now a criminal al offence. Up to 51 weeks in jail for an illegal worker if they are in England or Wales.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/201 ... 35/enacted


Refusing to pay the minimum wage of £7.20 an hour is another criminal offence.
https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-wag ... nimum-wage

Very aware of the illegal dealings of my employers. If my partner gains legal status here I would happily expose the business.

[Casa]

As noajthan and secret.simon have advised, you have been dangerously misled by your solicitor and you probably now realise (much too late) that you have got yourselves into a bit of a mess.
1. Your employer is obviously employing illegal workers and is likely to be 'visited' by Border Officers, followed by a £10,000 fine for each illegal employee.
2. In any visa HO application/interview your fiance will be asked where he is employed. (see 1)
3. You say that he started working from day one when he arrived on his student visa. Was he enrolled with a genuine or a bogus college?
4. You have described a classic case of attempting to gain legal residence by what the Home Office view as an 'anchor baby' application.
5. As you are unmarried, the HO will require your fiance to undergo a DNA test to prove paternity. This article by Free Movement will clearly explain post 2015 changes in registering his name on the birth certificate. Note this sentence "provided there is no evidence to suggest that their evidence is false (e.g. given in the hope of gaining an immigration advantage)"
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/proving ... tificates/
6. You are already aware of the difficulties in marrying in the UK. You can only marry in a Home Office designated Registry Office. The Registrar is then legally bound to notify the HO who can then extend the notification period from 28-70 days in order to interview you both before the wedding can go ahead. They're unlikely to wish you a happy wedding day and let your fiance go on his way and this will be when they may well put removal plans into action.
7. Not being able to adjust to the climate in India won't be considered as 'compelling reasons' and inter-faith marriages are becoming more common and acceptable in India. The HO generally take the view that apart from exceptional circumstances, young children can easily adapt to life outside of the UK.
8. I assume that your fiance is working with genuine (not false) documents?

(1) my employer has been doing this for a long time and getting away with it.
(2) that's ok- I'm against my employers and if they get into trouble so be it
(3) no idea ie college. I will ask.
(4) of course. He was reluctant but if it works I was going to go ahead.
(5) a dna test is no problem. I lost my virginity to my partner and have never slept with another man. Only my partner. So they are 100% his.
(6) which is why we were curious as to whether it would be possible to marry somewhere like the Isle of man where passports aren't necessary. But apparently the borders are checked well.
(7) young children can adapt of course, but I do not want to put my family in danger in terms of our religious stance. I was previously one of Jehovah's witnesses and want to return (need to be married before I'm accepted back) but this religion due to opinions on blood among other things would mean our lives could be made difficult by those around us. I had friends of the same faith in india who were being persecuted for their faith. I don't want this.
(8) he has no documents. Everything is cash in hand and secretive amongst all.

1. Probably not for much longer. As you've been advised, this will shortly be a criminal offence for both employees and the employer. Your partner's application will almost certainly trigger checks into his employment and how he is supporting himself while he is here illegally.
2. See 1 above that it will now also affect your partner.
3. Waiting confirmation
4. Unlikely to work as well as you hope.
5. -
6. You're now aware that marrying in the Isle of Man will be no different than marrying in any other part of the UK
7. The HO are likely to take the view that you can stay here with the children.
8. Cash in hand? You mean undeclared earnings and tax avoidance. The HO office will see this as illegal earnings.

If he has no documents, what happened to the passport he entered the UK with?

[ParadiseSeeker]

In my honest opinion, you have been given false hope by the Immigration advisor that having children will secure your partner's right to remain. The new Immigration Act which has just been passed through Parliament, following Royal assent, intends to ensure the following:
“Those with no right to be in the UK should return home – they can do so voluntarily, but if not we will seek to remove them.
“Through the Immigration Act 2014, we introduced a ‘deport first, appeal later’ rule for foreign national offenders
“And now, through the Immigration Bill, we will now remove even more illegal immigrants by extending this rule to all immigration appeals including where a so-called right to family life is involved, apart from asylum claims.”

Have you seen evidence of your partner's divorce?

Hadn't seen this message.
We could have been given false hope but I'd rather try.
He was never married so he can't have evidence of divorce. He has never been the marriage sort. I am and so pushed it but he's happy with me and now we have children on the way, he wants to do things properly

[ParadiseSeeker]

As noajthan and secret.simon have advised, you have been dangerously misled by your solicitor and you probably now realise (much too late) that you have got yourselves into a bit of a mess.
1. Your employer is obviously employing illegal workers and is likely to be 'visited' by Border Officers, followed by a £10,000 fine for each illegal employee.
2. In any visa HO application/interview your fiance will be asked where he is employed. (see 1)
3. You say that he started working from day one when he arrived on his student visa. Was he enrolled with a genuine or a bogus college?
4. You have described a classic case of attempting to gain legal residence by what the Home Office view as an 'anchor baby' application.
5. As you are unmarried, the HO will require your fiance to undergo a DNA test to prove paternity. This article by Free Movement will clearly explain post 2015 changes in registering his name on the birth certificate. Note this sentence "provided there is no evidence to suggest that their evidence is false (e.g. given in the hope of gaining an immigration advantage)"
https://www.freemovement.org.uk/proving ... tificates/
6. You are already aware of the difficulties in marrying in the UK. You can only marry in a Home Office designated Registry Office. The Registrar is then legally bound to notify the HO who can then extend the notification period from 28-70 days in order to interview you both before the wedding can go ahead. They're unlikely to wish you a happy wedding day and let your fiance go on his way and this will be when they may well put removal plans into action.
7. Not being able to adjust to the climate in India won't be considered as 'compelling reasons' and inter-faith marriages are becoming more common and acceptable in India. The HO generally take the view that apart from exceptional circumstances, young children can easily adapt to life outside of the UK.
8. I assume that your fiance is working with genuine (not false) documents?

(1) my employer has been doing this for a long time and getting away with it.
(2) that's ok- I'm against my employers and if they get into trouble so be it
(3) no idea ie college. I will ask.
(4) of course. He was reluctant but if it works I was going to go ahead.
(5) a dna test is no problem. I lost my virginity to my partner and have never slept with another man. Only my partner. So they are 100% his.
(6) which is why we were curious as to whether it would be possible to marry somewhere like the Isle of man where passports aren't necessary. But apparently the borders are checked well.
(7) young children can adapt of course, but I do not want to put my family in danger in terms of our religious stance. I was previously one of Jehovah's witnesses and want to return (need to be married before I'm accepted back) but this religion due to opinions on blood among other things would mean our lives could be made difficult by those around us. I had friends of the same faith in india who were being persecuted for their faith. I don't want this.
(8) he has no documents. Everything is cash in hand and secretive amongst all.

1. Probably not for much longer. As you've been advised, this will shortly be a criminal offence for both employees and the employer. Your partner's application will almost certainly trigger checks into his employment and how he is supporting himself while he is here illegally.
2. See 1 above that it will now also affect your partner.
3. Waiting confirmation
4. Unlikely to work as well as you hope.
5. -
6. You're now aware that marrying in the Isle of Man will be no different than marrying in any other part of the UK
7. The HO are likely to take the view that you can stay here with the children.
8. Cash in hand? You mean undeclared earnings and tax avoidance. The HO office will see this as illegal earnings.

If he has no documents, what happened to the passport he entered the UK with?

(1) I feel sure only close friends and family know about his employment and the legal issues involved
(2) understood
(3) he's in the gym will ask later
(4) how come?
(5) -
(6) I realise. Just assumed due to crown dependency (?) but wrong
(7) hopefully. If partner was to convert or in the process of doing so and could get proof of this, could this affect matters?
(8) I work 50 hours on 4.40. I am down as doing approximately 16 hours on my pay slip getting 400ish a month. Partners work is all undeclared
(9) his passport is with borders agency

[Casa]

Well as you now know, registering an intent to marry anywhere in the UK will be reported to the Home Office by the Registrar in order for you to both be interviewed before the wedding can take place. If he doesn't have a passport, you wouldn't be able to register to marry anyway.