EAA(PR) application for EAA spouse of UK Citizen

[JGSvdS]

My wife is EEA (Dutch) Citizen married to me, a British Citizen. Married 40+ years, resident in the UK since 1999.

In this context, I have the following queries re form EEA(PR) for her PR application (with me as Sponsor):

Section 9 (9.1) - p46: 'If you're applying as the family member....of the relevant EEA national......does the relevant EEA national have a document certifying permanent residence?" - Yes/No/Not applicable.

* Q: With the 'relevant EEA national' being me, a UK Citizen, does my wife answer 'Yes' to this question and, if so, what 'document' should be quoted? Passport, for example? I assume it can't mean, literally, a PR document as, as a UK Citizen, I have no need for same.

*Q: If the answer here is indeed 'Yes', and the document is sent with the application ('Yes' to q9.3), is it indeed so that no further questions between 9.3 and Section 16 need to be answered (per comment in q9.3)?

Qualifying period.

* Q: Is this 3 years for her? 5 years? Other?

Any help on this much appreciated.

[noajthan]

You are not wife's sponsor as you are not an EEA national (in this context).

Wife needs to be main applicant.
How has she been exercising treaty rights? you/she just needs to identify a 5 year qualifying period since entering country.
Has wife enjoyed any prolonged absences away from UK since then?

Pro tip: suggest wife checks her passport in case she was originally stamped into UK with ILR.
That did happen back in 19-forgotten and would render an application for DCPR superfluous.

[JGSvdS]

Thanks for your prompt response.

CAB advised me I was sponsor (I specifically asked them, as I was puzzled by absence of reference to 'spouse of UK Citizen' in the form). You are saying I am not, cannot be, her sponsor, is that so?

So, on what basis can an EEA national, spouse of a UK Citizen, apply ("Eligibility", p1) - "* an EEA national 'qualified person' (worker, self-employed, self-sufficient, student or jobseeker)"? Surely there must be something more specific for the spouse of a UK Citizen?

Tip: No, no ILR stamp in passport. In any case, entered through UK port with EEA passport, no stamp given.

Thanks you help.

[noajthan]

Thanks for your prompt response.

CAB advised me I was sponsor (I specifically asked them, as I was puzzled by absence of reference to 'spouse of UK Citizen' in the form). You are saying I am not, cannot be, her sponsor, is that so?

So, on what basis can an EEA national, spouse of a UK Citizen, apply ("Eligibility", p1) - "* an EEA national 'qualified person' (worker, self-employed, self-sufficient, student or jobseeker)"? Surely there must be something more specific for the spouse of a UK Citizen?

Tip: No, no ILR stamp in passport. In any case, entered through UK port with EEA passport, no stamp given.

Thanks you help.

CAB are mistaken then.

Even some Union citizens nationals were stamped in with ILR. A French family found out, to their evident delight, only the other week, as reported in forum.

No, except in special circumstances, you are not treated as an EEA national under UK law (in this context). And that is even before Brexit.

There is no benefit in immigration terms in having a BC spouse when applying for DCPR; after all the Union citizen is relying on privileges of EU law.

Yes wife needs to be a QP by having exercised treaty rights in one or more categories of:
worker, self-employed, self-sufficient, student or jobseeker

Which is she or has been?
Once PR has been acquired there is ofcourse no need to exercise treaty rights after that; just hold onto the status by not going awol from UK for 2 years or more.

The chances are that your wife acquired PR donkeys years ago; she just needs to proof to get the confirmation.
That is all DCPR is: a confirmatory document - it doesn't grant any status.

If wife has not been exercising treaty rights then suggest she regularises her basis to reside in UK by taking out CSI and becoming a selfsuffcient qp asap.

If this is the situation then wife won't be eligible to acquire PR yet (and may not now have time to do so) but it would be prudent and worthwhile to at least apply for EEA (QP) to confirm her status;
more important in these changing times in case any (yet to be announced) transitional arrangements for Brexit depend on Union citizens having some minimal EU-related documentation.

[JGSvdS]

Thanks for your patient and thorough response - much appreciated.

Still, it's shaken me a bit, as I come to realise from what you say that there is no relevance or advantage to my wife being the spouse of a British Citizen - ouch!

Of the QP categories, only 'self sufficient' applies, or would do, but for CSI, which she does not have, and has not had (except for the period 1999-2006). So, it would be start from a Square One for that (even if there was time to do so). Q: could CSI applying of the period 1999-2006 be relevant, or does it have to be for the last 5(?) years?

So, my wife, who has been married to a British Citizen for 40+ years, and who has been living in the UK continuously since 1999, a UK taxpayer, is staring at not having the right to remain here (because CSI bars her from the 'self-sufficient' category) and so, should the Brexit considerations go that way, be obliged to leave the UK? You'll see why I am 'shaken'.

(By the way, you recommend my wife "at least apply for EAA(QP) to confirm her status". Are you suggesting she goes in without evidence of CSI and see what happens?)

Still, on the plus side, yours has been the most definitive advice I've had on this subject (and contrary to CAB guidance, as you've seen); I'm grateful (I think!) for your kind assistance, and hope another iteration will mean I will cease bothering you.

[Casa]

As noajthan isn't currently online, I will briefly confirm that any 5 year period with CSI would qualify...in your wife's case, 1999-2006. I'll leave nojathan to comment further when he's picks this up again.

[noajthan]

Thanks for your patient and thorough response - much appreciated.

Still, it's shaken me a bit, as I come to realise from what you say that there is no relevance or advantage to my wife being the spouse of a British Citizen - ouch!

Of the QP categories, only 'self sufficient' applies, or would do, but for CSI, which she does not have, and has not had (except for the period 1999-2006). So, it would be start from a Square One for that (even if there was time to do so). Q: could CSI applying of the period 1999-2006 be relevant, or does it have to be for the last 5(?) years?

So, my wife, who has been married to a British Citizen for 40+ years, and who has been living in the UK continuously since 1999, a UK taxpayer, is staring at not having the right to remain here (because CSI bars her from the 'self-sufficient' category) and so, should the Brexit considerations go that way, be obliged to leave the UK? You'll see why I am 'shaken'.

(By the way, you recommend my wife "at least apply for EAA(QP) to confirm her status". Are you suggesting she goes in without evidence of CSI and see what happens?)

Still, on the plus side, yours has been the most definitive advice I've had on this subject (and contrary to CAB guidance, as you've seen); I'm grateful (I think!) for your kind assistance, and hope another iteration will mean I will cease bothering you.

It is no bother; I wouldn't be here if it was. Most of us here have had a journey, arduous or otherwise; sometimes the road less travelled.

Yep, its a great leveller. But don't despair, I'm sure wife has some appropriate 5 years period tucked away in the past 17.

If wife was the beneficiary of a comprehensive health/sickness policy back in the day, and supported by private means, (eg yours or a.n.other legitimate source) then you should be able to make the case;
that is, as long as you have adequate documentary supporting evidence.

It is a common misconception that last 5 years must be used; any qualifying period will do.
It appears wife already has PR status, from, say, 2001 - 2006.
(Assuming no subsequent 2 year absence).

The EEA QP suggestion is just a fallback plan (plan B) in case you had no qualifying period at all, just to save being 'illegal'.
Ie to get CSI in place now and at least obtain a RC as EEA (QP).

No need for that if you have the previous evidence of CSI and self-sufficiency; shoot direct for DCPR via EEA(PR) form.

[secret.simon]

Pro tip: suggest wife checks her passport in case she was originally stamped into UK with ILR.
That did happen back in 19-forgotten and would render an application for DCPR superfluous.

Tip: No, no ILR stamp in passport. In any case, entered through UK port with EEA passport, no stamp given.

ILR was stamped on requested for EEA citizens before October 2000. So, check the pre-2000 passports.

The requirement for CSI for EEA citizens is a requirement of EU law itself, so no way around that.

But a few alternative approaches that have surfaced on these forums in the past have been;

a) Do you have any work-provided (non-NHS) health insurance? Worth checking if she is covered by that. If she is, that may count as CSI.
b) Does Dutch state health insurance cover their nationals overseas? Some Germans have been able to leverage such cover as the equivalent of CSI by means of a letter from their state health insurance provider.

The point about CSI is that there is no possibility of her being a burden on the NHS. If you can prove that she was covered by some provider other than the NHS (as suggested above), she may get away without needing CSI in her own right.

If this is the situation then wife won't be eligible to acquire PR yet (and may not now have time to do so) but it would be prudent and worthwhile to at least apply for EEA (QP) to confirm her status;

(By the way, you recommend my wife "at least apply for EAA(QP) to confirm her status". Are you suggesting she goes in without evidence of CSI and see what happens?)

I think that what noajthan is suggesting is that your wife get CSI (if not covered by the suggestions above) and get documentary proof that she is a Qualified Person after that. In the event of a Brexit, there may be transitional protections for people who have documentary proof on specified dates (this is the current practice for non-EEA citizens, so assuming that the same principles will apply).

So far, EEA citizens have got by without any need for documentary proof, but in the event of a hard Brexit, it may be better to get proof as soon as possible.

Of the QP categories, only 'self sufficient' applies, or would do, but for CSI, which she does not have, and has not had (except for the period 1999-2006). So, it would be start from a Square One for that (even if there was time to do so). Q: could CSI applying of the period 1999-2006 be relevant, or does it have to be for the last 5(?) years?

As Casa has stated, any block of five continuous years will do, so long as you have documentary proof. In fact, the earlier, the better.

So, my wife, who has been married to a British Citizen for 40+ years, and who has been living in the UK continuously since 1999, a UK taxpayer, is staring at not having the right to remain here (because CSI bars her from the 'self-sufficient' category) and so, should the Brexit considerations go that way, be obliged to leave the UK?

Unlikely. Based on her long presence in the UK and her marriage to a British citizen, she could be allowed to stay under human rights provisions of UK immigration law. UK immigration Rules is much more expensive than EU law (as an example, confirmation of PR under EU law is £65, an equivalent ILR under UK Immigration Rules is typically £1875 per person), but provisions already exist for a person in your wife's situation. She won't be deported overnight in the event of a Brexit.

[JGSvdS]

I would like to offer my thanks and appreciation to those of you who have kindly responded to my query on this subject. I won't pretend I'm not a little disturbed by your messages, but it's most welcome to have definitive, informed advice.

I find it hard to believe there isn't already a substantial thread/s on the subject. After all, EU citizen seeking LTR, married to UK citizen, can hardly be a rare occurance; perhaps the answer lies in others being less naive than I (and who don't take their lead from the CAB).

Anyway, I'll digest what you've advised, and see if I can construct a way forward. Let's hope I do so before the black marias turn up at our door!

[noajthan]

Don't be too hard on yourself; yours is not the first case, won't be the last.
Many others reported in forum too.

No SWAT squad is going to darken (or batter) your door.
But do confirm the PR asap that its likely that your wife has had since 2006.

And if its refused then what a story to tell (I was an illegal alien).
But seriously, do regularise wife's position with CSI and at least get EEA(QP) in the bag (if DCPR proves not possible at this time).

[JGSvdS]

CSI-related postscript:

My wife has been in receipt of a Dutch state pension since 2011. At inception, she received a letter from the Dutch pension authorities which stated, inter alia, the following:

"You live in the UK and you have the right to a pension or allowance from the Netherlands. This means that you have convention rights: you have a right to medical care in your country of residence to the expense of the Netherlands."

and, in the accompanying Information Brochure:

"There is a European regulation (Regulation (EC) no 883/2004) determining which country pays the costs of medical care for pensioners/persons receiving an allowance. The country that pays a - statutory - pension is the country responsible for the costs of medical care of pensioners/persons receiving an allowance when they live in a different member state. This means that the Netherlands has to pay for the costs of your medical care from the date that you move to Great Britain."

Q1: Does this constitute (an acceptable form of) CSI? ('secret.simon' advice above might suggest yes)
Q2: If so, would submission of this letter with my wife's EEA(PR) application be sufficient evidence of CSI?

Grateful views on this.

[noajthan]

1) Yes, you may have cracked it, especially if that cover applies to a minimum of a 5 year period.
From 2011 seems promising.

2) Quite possibly.

You may get a steer on what HO is looking for from this internal guidance on CSI:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... issued.pdf


fyi - more on qualified persons (including selfsufficient qp and about CSI) in HO guidance here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

Also worth noting its not a mandatory legal requirement to use the current 'monster' PR form.
Other simpler (earlier) versions are available.

[Breev]

Thanks for your patient and thorough response - much appreciated.

Still, it's shaken me a bit, as I come to realise from what you say that there is no relevance or advantage to my wife being the spouse of a British Citizen - ouch!

I'm in a slightly similar situation (Dutch national with a British partner - although not married). Pretty much everyone I speak to can't believe that marrying my partner would not make an ounce of difference to me being able to obtain PR. You are definitely not alone in assuming that being the spouse of a British Citizen would have some kind of advantage. Sorry, I don't have any advice not already given by the far more knowledgeable people further up in this thread, but just wanted to express my sympathies!

[JGSvdS]

In considering the 'much simpler form' referenced above, Section 3.2 therein, there is reference to the possibility of being supported by 'funds of a family member'. I don't see any option for this possibility in the full application form EEA(PR), and it's an option which would be relevant in my case - my wife, as applicant, is an EAA national, wife of a British Citizen, not/never employed in the UK could probably show self-sufficiency but our practical circumstances are that she is supported by my funds.

Does the provision per Section 3.2 in the 'short' form indeed apply for PR applications and, if so, where is evidence for that in Form EAA(PR)?

[ohara]

In considering the 'much simpler form' referenced above, Section 3.2 therein, there is reference to the possibility of being supported by 'funds of a family member'. I don't see any option for this possibility in the full application form EEA(PR), and it's an option which would be relevant in my case - my wife, as applicant, is an EAA national, wife of a British Citizen, not/never employed in the UK could probably show self-sufficiency but our practical circumstances are that she is supported by my funds.

Does the provision per Section 3.2 in the 'short' form indeed apply for PR applications and, if so, where is evidence for that in Form EAA(PR)?

British citizens are not recognised as EEA citizens for these purposes, so you cannot be her sponsor.

She can however qualify as self sufficient from your funds if you are supporting her, providing she has not claimed benefits and has been covered by comprehensive sickness insurance for the entire 5 year period.

In both forms it would fall into the category of self sufficiency, which you would obviously need to show proof of.

[JGSvdS]

Many thanks your prompt and helpful response - much appreciated.

When Section 3.2 referred to 'family member' and not 'EAA family member', I wondered whether that (3.2) definition might include me, as BC spouse. But apparently not.

Your advice about my wife's self sufficiency including funding from me is welcome news, though. It seems logical and reasonable, I would have thought (after all, it reflects our married circumstance for more than 40 years), but it's nice to know it's likely to apply.

Many thanks again.

[noajthan]

UK law does not change depending on the version of a form that is used.
A BC cannot sponsor a Union citizen on EU migration path i UK; (except in special circumstances which don't apply here).

[JGSvdS]

Understood. You've made this clear in your previous helpful advice and I'm not questioning it.

It's just that Section 3.2 of the 'short' PR form (for what that form might be worth), makes the following observation:

"If you did not exercise Treaty rights for some or all of this period but were supported by the employment or funds of a family member, please give details below."

This does not mention 'Sponsor" but, for the first time I have seen, seems to present the possibility of sidestepping the exercising of treaty rights categories (which include, for 'Self Sufficient', the ubiquitous CSI requirement) by means of having support of 'funds of a family member'. I see no reference at all to this provision in EAA(PR), and so was wondering...

I know I can't be a sponsor, from what you've told me. But I am certainly pleased to see in the answer I got to this that 'self sufficient' can include include support by spouse - I hope that's right, as It's easier to demonstrate for us.

Thanks again you help.

[noajthan]

Understood. You've made this clear in your previous helpful advice and I'm not questioning it.

It's just that Section 3.2 of the 'short' PR form (for what that form might be worth), makes the following observation:

"If you did not exercise Treaty rights for some or all of this period but were supported by the employment or funds of a family member, please give details below."

This does not mention 'Sponsor" but, for the first time I have seen, seems to present the possibility of sidestepping the exercising of treaty rights categories (which include, for 'Self Sufficient', the ubiquitous CSI requirement) by means of having support of 'funds of a family member'. I see no reference at all to this provision in EAA(PR), and so was wondering...

I know I can't be a sponsor, from what you've told me. But I am certainly pleased to see in the answer I got to this that 'self sufficient' can include include support by spouse - I hope that's right, as It's easier to demonstrate for us.

Thanks again you help.

All the forms are poorly designed and generic. The quality of wording and notes is confusing and in some cases contradictory.
None of the forms are fully compliant with the cleaner, purer EU law.
That's a given.

You can't escape from the 5 categories of qp - they come from EU law.
Ofcourse you can support a family member who is a self-sufficient person - the HO guidance is clear on that. But you are not their 'sponsor'.

As linked for you earlier - you are advised to read and digest this in order to make an adequate and cohesive application;
this internal HO guidance shows how a caseworker will assess and weigh your wife's case:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _clean.pdf

The only chance your wife has got (unless she has independent means) is if you are her supporter complementing the CSI (or alternative) she needs;
that's the case you have to make with good (if not unimpeachable) documentary supporting evidence.

Just CSI (pension letter) on its own would never be enough, your wife has to prove she is not imposing a burden on the country (social assistance system).

[JGSvdS]

Understood.

"Self sufficient" is pretty clear for my wife, especially with the new (for me) advice that a self-sufficient person may in fact be supported by a family member (me, in this case).

The CSI aspect is trickier, as she will have to rely on the Dutch coverage of that (see my earlier advice). I have noted the requirement/s for evidence of that, and am in the process of seeing how she might obtain the Form S1 (previously E121). We did see that form in 2011, sent to us by the Dutch authorities at the inception of my wife's Dutch pension, for on-forwarding to the DWP, which she did. It seems to me that, if she can get access to that, and it gives confirmation of the Dutch coverage noted in my earlier narrative to you, we're there. If not....

At your suggestion, I am also looking at the QP route, as a Plan B (or maybe even Plan A).

Thanks again. I hope you realise how grateful all your 'clients' are for your most helpful advice.

[Petaltop]

and, in the accompanying Information Brochure:

"There is a European regulation (Regulation (EC) no 883/2004) determining which country pays the costs of medical care for pensioners/persons receiving an allowance. The country that pays a - statutory - pension is the country responsible for the costs of medical care of pensioners/persons receiving an allowance when they live in a different member state. This means that the Netherlands has to pay for the costs of your medical care from the date that you move to Great Britain."

Q1: Does this constitute (an acceptable form of) CSI? ('secret.simon' advice above might suggest yes)
Q2: If so, would submission of this letter with my wife's EEA(PR) application be sufficient evidence of CSI?

Grateful views on this.

This is an S1. Under EU laws, you can retire to another EEA country on your state pension as a self sufficient qualified person but the healthcare is to be paid for by the country paying that state pension. The pensioner gets an S1 form from their own country for this and it is renewed every few years.

When your wife uses the NHS, she presents her Netherland S1 for payment. The NHS then bills the Netherlands for all her treatment. The Netherlands will have details on how to get a Netherlands S1 on their own website

It's what the British pensioners do who retire to places like Spain and France. They use their S1 and the UK pays all their health bills. In April 2015 the UK changed this so that they will now only issue a UK S1 to someone who is in receipt of a UK state pension. Before that, the UK issued an S1 to any retired Brit who moved to an EEA country, even if they were not in receipt of a state pension.
Here is a piece on the UK S1.
http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcare ... ction.aspx

[Petaltop]

One year out. It was 2014 when the UK changed which Brit retirees can have an S1 if they retire to another EEA country.

http://www.connexionfrance.com/the-end- ... ticle.html

[Petaltop]

Your advice about my wife's self sufficiency including funding from me is welcome news, though. It seems logical and reasonable, I would have thought (after all, it reflects our married circumstance for more than 40 years), but it's nice to know it's likely to apply.

As EEA citizens, we are only allowed to visit another EEA country for 3 months.

To have a right to reside in that country past that 3 months, we must be a qualified person at all times: worker, self employed, jobseeker or self sufficient.

[JGSvdS]

Many thanks.

Your comments much appreciated.

[ohara]

Has your wife by any chance held a EHIC from the Netherlands which covers her time here?

Also, it's EEA.

European Economic Area.