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Daughter Irish/ Son diabetic/ HSMP. Whats my best option?

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t4cash
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Daughter Irish/ Son diabetic/ HSMP. Whats my best option?

Post by t4cash » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:59 am

My family and I are visiting the UK presently with a valid Visitor Visa. My daughter (6 years) is Irish by birth. My son (4) was born here in London but is not a UK or EU citizen. He was unfortunately diagnosed with a life-long illness) at age 1. However, on this current UK visit, the consultant is insisting that he stay here.

I need to move here because of my son's illness which also means my Irish-born daughter has to move here.

Someone has recommended the Chen Case, and have just read about that Case in which the ECJ upheld a mother was entitled to stay with her Irish-born daughter as long as they had sufficient funds. See link here
http://212.2.162.45/news/story.asp?j=12 ... =121273204

Could someone please advise me how best to prroceed? On the basis of my Irish -born daughter/the Chen Case and ability to prove non-recource to public funds, my son's compassionate grounds or HSMP.
Last edited by t4cash on Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Chess
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Post by Chess » Tue Nov 02, 2004 10:19 am

t4cash,

I am really sorry about your sons illness and the current immigration situation.

I think my other moderator (Kayalami) will be able to answer some of your questions and offer further guidance.

Just a few minor questions from me:

1). What was the immigration status of the mother at the time of your childs (son's) birth?

2) What is the nationality of your wife (the childrens mother)

3). One was born in Ireland and the other in UK - what was your status/mothers status on birth of the children in the UK and Eire

4). Was trhe child born in Eire or north Ireland

5). Is the NHS aware of the immigration status of your child. Or is your child recieving private treatment

6). What did you specify on your VAF on your most recent visit

7). Are you currently staying in a hotel, with relatives or ...

It is up to you to answer the Q's you want so that we can get a better picture of the situation
Where there is a will there is a way.

t4cash
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Post by t4cash » Tue Nov 02, 2004 9:18 pm

Checkmate, thanks for your sympathy. I will try to answer your qustions below. As for Kayalami, will you forward this to him or ought I to?

1). What was the immigration status of the mother at the time of your childs (son's) birth?
Their mother has always had a visiting visa and has been a regular visitor due to her business. Her brother has been resident here with his family and 2 years ago got a Stay based on 14 years. He was the one who put her on NHS long time ago via his GP on one of the visits that she fell sick.

2) What is the nationality of your wife (the childrens mother)
Same as mine

3). One was born in Ireland and the other in UK - what was your status/mothers status on birth of the children in the UK and Eire.
Visiting visas. Both. Both.

4). Was trhe child born in Eire or north Ireland.
North Ireland.

5). Is the NHS aware of the immigration status of your child. Or is your child recieving private treatment.
He is receiving NHS. I believe the consultant and GP know he is not a BC. .

6). What did you specify on your VAF on your most recent visit
Business/ holiday as usually.

7). Are you currently staying in a hotel, with relatives or ...
WIth her brother who owns a 3 bedroom house in London, but we are investigating getting a property.

Hope this is some use. This is all woeful. Isnt it?

Chess
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Re: Daughter Irish/ Son diabetic/ HSMP. Whats my best option

Post by Chess » Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:15 am

The following is my advice
I now have to move here because of my son's illness which also means my Irish-born daughter has to move here.
It would appear that you are willing to stay in the UK at all costs - I recommend that you take a lwafull approach and not just take the law in your hands

Could someone please advise me how best to prroceed? On the basis of my Irish -born daughter/the Chen Case and ability to prove non-recource to public funds, my son's compassionate grounds or HSMP.
I do sympathise with you regarding your child's illness - but it can be urgued in court that your child can recieve the same level of Treatment in the Nigeria as in the UK.

Dont forget that although your child was born in the UK and is currently recieving NHS tretament - he is not entitled to it as a visitor (unless it is an emergency)
With HSMP, its discretionary, and we need to move in 4 months because of his health. Which is why a compassionate plea/ EU right to freedom is appealing.

Why is HSMP discretionary? Do you think you would qualify iof you applied?



My take on this would be


1). By having children in the UK/Northern Ireland at both times on Visitors Visa does show an intention to 'beat' the system at all costs - I am afraid.

You better start getting things straight

2) Apply for HSMP, however, you should not overstay your current visa. If you succed then you can bring the whole of your family

3). Unfortunately your children had to leave the UK so registration as a minor aged up to 10years is out of question.

4). Take legal advise at your earliest opportunity

5). Your brother in law got his residence based on 14 years stay (implies he had some elemnt of illegal stay in the UK). My advice is that you should take anyadvice from him carefully) - as he definately took many risks and he may lead you the wrong way (I am not saying that this will be the case).

All the best and my sincere sympathies
Where there is a will there is a way.

t4cash
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PLEASE COMMENT ON THE CHEN ANGLE

Post by t4cash » Wed Nov 03, 2004 10:59 am

Checkmate,

I really appreciate your concern that I approach this carefully. Believe me, I have always known that once you get on the wrong track with the visa system in any country, it becomes a rollercoaster ride. And it becomes hard to get it right. A lot of this mistakes were made, unsuspectingly and believe it or not they were both born in real emergency situations but I guess that is a moot issue. My son's life is at stake- thats all that counts now and he DEFINITELY can not get the same level of medical care there. That is what the medical doctors have said.

AS for over staying, we do not plan to. Indeed we are billed to return home next week. Our multiple-entry visas expire next year and I will probably renew them to another 2 year one before coming back to try to sort this out. If they can come back and stay here whilst I and the mum go back and forth, we will start like this. He can not be deported, that is what every lawyer I have spoken to says and the sister as an Irish can stay here. BUT that will be enormously expensive for us and inconvenient.

I have consulted a legal acquaintance (Dont worry, it wasnt my brother in law, who was a victim of bad legal advice, and is even urging more caution than you are). It was this lawyer friend that recommended the Chen Route, and asked for a deposit to start the process. But having read up this case on the net, it appears to me that it hinges on ability to prove self sufficiency by the EEA national i.e. my daughter (especially a private health insurance).

But I am not sure whether this lawyer is really COMPETENT with this Chen Route he has suggested and as I said I DO NOT WANT TO GET ON THE WRONG TRACK.

Since I posted this neither you nor anyone has commented on this Chen angle, & that is what I would really really love you to hear about. Indeed it seems most UK lawyers have not digested this case talk less of how it applies to us.

t4cash
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Post by t4cash » Thu Nov 04, 2004 3:38 pm

I have received a satisfactory legal advice on this and will probably be pursuing a long term settlement application on both his and his mother's behalf based on compassionate grounds in the near future. I will not be seeking any settlement option for myself. I will continue my business at home and be visiting them.

Apparently the Chen Ruling is still contentious and the UK goverment will not be eager to encourage floods of EU children with their parents to come and settle here.

Thank you Checkmate, for all the advice.

Kayalami
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Post by Kayalami » Thu Nov 04, 2004 6:46 pm

Mr cash,

Like my fellow moderator Checkmate and the rest of the board, I sympathise with your situation in respect of your son’s illness. In regards to comments about a lack of a definitive response do note that many participants here including the moderators are volunteers and are not as far as I know ‘experts’ in immigration law particularly on complex situations pertaining to Community Law. Note further that your case juxtaposes aspects of UK Immigration and Nationality law as well as regulations pertaining to the medical treatment of visitors on the NHS.

My interpretation of your query is that you:

1. Intend for your son to reside in the UK to undertake medical treatment as recommended by a consultant registered with the General Medical Council as appropriate.

2. By default for her sister to remain in the UK – as an Irish Citizen she has the right to live in the UK under Community (EU) law

3. As per the Chen ruling for you and the mother to reside in the UK as the primary carers of an EU national residing in the UK under Community law.

4. Whether to pursue an application for the HSMP scheme pursuant to 3 not materializing.

The Chen ruling delivered as a binding judgment (AFAIK it cannot be appealed against) by the European Court of Justice on 19 October 2004 states:

In circumstances like those of the main proceedings, Article 18 EC and Council Directive 90/364/EEC of 28 June 1990 on the right of residence confer on a young minor who is a national of a Member State, is covered by appropriate sickness insurance and is in the care of a parent who is a third-country national having sufficient resources for that minor not to become a burden on the public finances of the host Member State, a right to reside for an indefinite period in that State. In such circumstances, those same provisions allow a parent who is that minor’s primary carer to reside with the child in the host Member State.


it thus follows that:

1. Your daughter as an EU (Irish) national, in so far as meeting the requirements to have adequate medical insurance/ cover and resources to not be a charge on public funds has the right to reside in another member state (UK) for an indefinite period. It does not matter as to the source of relevant resources. I presume your daughter has an Irish passport. Note too that in the Chen ruling the child had no other nationality – I recall Nigeria does not allow dual nationality.

2. You do not have a right of residence in the UK as per EU law on the right of dependents (spouses/ children) or relatives in the ascending line of an EU national exercising treaty rights – currently your daughter is your dependent not the other way round.

3. However the right of your daughter to remain in the UK is ineffective and thus contrary to EU law if the primary carer is not allowed to remain in the UK.

4. Consequently your right of residence in the UK is based on the need to ensure your daughter can exercise her right of residence in the UK.

Some issues to consider

1. The Chen ruling applies to one parent/ carer – the ECJ does not mention two carers/ parents (as the father was not included in the initial residence application) so I am not sure how this helps both parents stay in the UK. I am sure case law will evolve from this in the near future in particular those situations where the carer is not a parent and/or has long term limited leave to remain in the UK.

2. The right of the carer to reside in the UK in line with the EU national does not limit the Home Office from imposing any other conditions pertaining to such stay – the most obvious ones are ‘no recourse to public funds’ and ‘no recourse to employment’

3. The resource requirement and the age of the child in question means that you must have substantial assets to allow subsistence to when the child can be economically active – in the UK you cannot formally enter the job market (some exclusions apply but they are not really relevant here) till you are 16. Justice and cash remain a standard feature of the legal system.

4. Your son’s residence in the UK by default of the Chen ruling will be indirect i.e. you need to apply for residence via the Chen ruling then apply for your son to remain in the UK under the immigration rules based on your residence.

5. The legal advice you received pertaining to your son’s deportation is factually incorrect – any person who is not a British Citizen or otherwise has no right of abode can be deported. Deportation is primarily based on serious criminal offences e.g. murder and matters pertaining to vital national interests/ security e.g. treason. By default your son’s age means that this is moot.

6. As per the British Nationality Act 1981, your son is not a British Citizen despite being born in the UK and thus requires leave to enter or remain in the UK as applicable. However where he had been born in the UK and stayed/ remained there for the initial 10 years of his life (max 90 days outside the UK) then he would be registered as a British Citizen. There are provisions under the Nationality Acts and regulations to grant British Citizenship to British Born minors at age 5 but these apply to reducing stateless status as well as to any person the Home Secretary deems fit but there would have to be exceptional reasons e.g. exemplary military service under the crown such as getting a victoria cross.

7. Your son’s entry into the UK thus falls under the immigration rules – currently those pertaining to visitors. IMHO the issue of treatment under the NHS is moot because there is a clause/operational policy stating that a UK born child who is not a British Citizen or settled as the case may be is not to be denied leave to enter (and presumably remain) the UK on medical grounds.

8. Medical insurance policies exclude pre-existing conditions and have caps on benefits particularly pertaining to life threatening illnesses requiring extensive diagnostics particularly scans and lab tests.

Summary

The Chen ruling enables some of your intentions to materialize. However IMHO you need to then follow any right of residence under such with an application to an immigration category giving you the right to be employed/ self employed in the UK unless your financial position is such that this is not required. It appears that the HSMP scheme is appropriate – however based on your financial position i.e. net worth etc there may be other routes that are appropriate. IMHO the compassionate circumstances route you intend to follow will be lengthy and not necessarily lead to settlement – there are already discretionary policies granting limited leave to remain for quite long periods (I know a 3 years case) in the UK for parents of minors undergoing medical treatment – AFAIK such leave is subject to a condition preventing employment and recourse to public funds. In any case obtaining leave to enter/ remain in the UK under the HSMP or any other category leading to settlement is helpful as it will enable you to register your son as a British Citizen once you acquire Indefinite Leave To Remain in the UK - based on your circumstances this would be after 4 years in employment/self employment based categories.

As a by the by IMHO the issue of third country (non EU) nationals who are parents of an EU national child flocking to the UK or other member states is unlikley due to:

1. The long term resource and medical insurance requirements - the people whom legal opinion expects as to most likely exercise the Chen ruling (and most likley move to the UK) are failed asylum seekers in Eire a significant proportion of whom are on state support.

2. By virtue of 1, I anticipate the Eire government (under friendly pressure from other EU member states) and pursuant to the recent amendment to the Irish Constitution removing the automatic citizenship by birth in Eire and Northern Ireland, to implement an amnesty of some sort and eliminate the need to move to another member state.

3. By virtue of the Chen ruling for various member states to amend as appropriate social security legislation pertaining to EU nationals in a different member state - I don't expect major changes given that the Chen ruling is in regards to non economically active EU nationals.

I trust that you find a long term solution on all these issues. Likewise I wish you and your family all the best in regards to your son's illness. God bless.

Kayalami

t4cash
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Post by t4cash » Fri Nov 05, 2004 1:58 am

Dear Kayalami, Thanks

1. Please enlighten me what IMHO stands for, my lack of understanding of its full meaning is impeding my understanding of your reply.

2. Nigeria allows dual nationality.

3. My resources are not be enough for the business related categories (200,000 pounds investment I heard). I am a businesman but not that big.

4. The illness is diabetes which requires lifelong monitoring, so the application was proposed to be on an SET(O)

5. In summary would I be correct to say you consider

WRONG - settlement SET(O) on health grounds because it is risky, lengthy and would likely not allow work permit and may be short term ( but the illness is diabetes, thats for life )
RIGHT - Chen Ruling. BTW we called Home Office, they were clueless about this ruling. ( Please how much is it likely I need to show for her- is it a lump sum in a UK/ Nigerian bank, income statement or networth statement?)
HSMP thereafter (or tell me can this be pursued concurrent with the other options?)

6. [a clause/operational policy stating that a UK born child who is not a British Citizen or settled as the case may be is not to be denied leave to enter (and presumably remain) the UK on medical grounds.] Please do you have a link or citation of the Act/ Section for this rule. I would really appreciate it.

5. SO IT IS really possible for the Home Office to approve the leave for him and a carer but deny the carer right to work? But cant she apply later for the permit.

6. DO you know of anyone who has filed under this Chen Ruling and what is happening?

Sorry if I am bothering you after an extensive response but I would really appreciate if you just help me to understand what you are suggesting

Also do you feel we should get the UK Diabetes Association involved or its too early for that.

Thank you again- T

MWazir
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Post by MWazir » Fri Nov 05, 2004 9:41 am

t4cash wrote:Please enlighten me what IMHO stands for, my lack of understanding of its full meaning is impeding my understanding of your reply.
IMHO is an abbreviation that stands for "In my humble opinion" or "In my honest opinion".

Cant help you much with the rest though, will leave it in the good hands of more knowlegable people.

uk511528288
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Post by uk511528288 » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:00 pm

Are the parents allowed to set up a businese in the UK under the chen ruling?

JAJ
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Post by JAJ » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:36 pm

This thread is from many years ago. Please repost on a new thread.

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