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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, CR001, zimba, meself2

ALI97
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Posts: 111
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Pakistan

Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by ALI97 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:25 am

Hi BIG Dobby
Thanks for sharing much useful information which will benifit lot of people to prepare proper case.you can upload mp,head teacher ,elderly relative letter format by removing your personal details and upload cover letter in parts if possible. ..it would only help people like me.
I respect site rules not sure why you were not able to read my pm .I just want to speak to you or want you can email me cover letter etc .
But if sites rules are every information should be public then you can upload as many dacuments relating this case it will only help others.
Lot of refusal in past though there were different scenario for everybody .... but now I see lot of people get success as well ...
Regards
Ali

noajthan
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by noajthan » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:32 am

Identikit clone letters written by rote are not going to carry much weight and may well weaken a case.
The point is each case to be taken on its individual and, by definition, unique merits, child by child.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by BIG Dobby » Tue Dec 20, 2016 8:07 am

ALI97 wrote:Hi BIG Dobby
Thanks for sharing much useful information which will benifit lot of people to prepare proper case.you can upload mp,head teacher ,elderly relative letter format by removing your personal details and upload cover letter in parts if possible. ..it would only help people like me.
I respect site rules not sure why you were not able to read my pm .I just want to speak to you or want you can email me cover letter etc .
But if sites rules are every information should be public then you can upload as many dacuments relating this case it will only help others.
Lot of refusal in past though there were different scenario for everybody .... but now I see lot of people get success as well ...
Regards
Ali

Just as noajthan pointed out, it is clearly based on ur personal circumstances n ur ability to put convincingly ur point(s)/argument thru. Whatever worked for me might not work for you e.g - I told HO that my wife has been on a different visa (as student and poststudy visa as my dependent) for 4.5yrs before migrating to settlement visa or that I have 3 kids who are British - this may be different for you.

If you tell me your personal circumstances that could be relevant or instrumental to this section, I will be able help you draft a suitable cover letter, MP, Dr and elderly relative representations. As you have requested, I will type in how they (the letters) look like before 12 noon today but pls note it is purely based on ur personal circumstances.

ALI97
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Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:25 pm
Pakistan

Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by ALI97 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 9:26 am

Hi BIG Dobby
I really appriciate your help.
My circumstances are as follows ...came to UK on tier 1 visa on 2009 with three outside born kids ages 14,12 and 10 year ...
Me and my wife get BC after two extensions....
One child born uk in 2009 got BC in 2009 after my and my wife ilr...I am engineer doing permanent job in factory and recently buy house here as well.
My children never visted outside UK since 2009 ,all kids going school for last 7.5 years in ukand I visted outside once for three weeks.
My 3 children still on tier 1 dependent visa ...they got two extension visa will be expire in April 2016
My children grandfather family (Wife parents)is here in uk as well they are BC ...they came uk 2006.
.would like to apply mn1 earlier but home office took a year for my BC application. .
Above is my whole scenario
Actually your case give me lot of hope that I will be successful.
I will be very great full if u can draft me cover letter etc
Kind regards
Ali

BIG Dobby
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by BIG Dobby » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:17 pm

ALI97 wrote:Hi BIG Dobby
I really appriciate your help.
My circumstances are as follows ...came to UK on tier 1 visa on 2009 with three outside born kids ages 14,12 and 10 year ...
Me and my wife get BC after two extensions....
One child born uk in 2009 got BC in 2009 after my and my wife ilr...I am engineer doing permanent job in factory and recently buy house here as well.
My children never visted outside UK since 2009 ,all kids going school for last 7.5 years in ukand I visted outside once for three weeks.
My 3 children still on tier 1 dependent visa ...they got two extension visa will be expire in April 2016
My children grandfather family (Wife parents)is here in uk as well they are BC ...they came uk 2006.
.would like to apply mn1 earlier but home office took a year for my BC application. .
Above is my whole scenario
Actually your case give me lot of hope that I will be successful.
I will be very great full if u can draft me cover letter etc
Kind regards
Ali
Are both of you (husband and wife) British citizens... yes or no pls. you confused me with your write-up

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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by Casa » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:37 pm

BIG Dobby wrote:
ALI97 wrote:Hi BIG Dobby
I really appriciate your help.
My circumstances are as follows ...came to UK on tier 1 visa on 2009 with three outside born kids ages 14,12 and 10 year ...
Me and my wife get BC after two extensions....
One child born uk in 2009 got BC in 2009 after my and my wife ilr...I am engineer doing permanent job in factory and recently buy house here as well.
My children never visted outside UK since 2009 ,all kids going school for last 7.5 years in ukand I visted outside once for three weeks.
My 3 children still on tier 1 dependent visa ...they got two extension visa will be expire in April 2016
My children grandfather family (Wife parents)is here in uk as well they are BC ...they came uk 2006.
.would like to apply mn1 earlier but home office took a year for my BC application. .
Above is my whole scenario
Actually your case give me lot of hope that I will be successful.
I will be very great full if u can draft me cover letter etc
Kind regards
Ali
Are both of you (husband and wife) British citizens... yes or no pls. you confused me with your write-up
(Casa, not CR001)
Please don't send me PMs asking for immigration advice on posts that are on the open forum. If I haven't responded there, it's because I don't have the answer. I'm a moderator, not a legal professional.

noajthan
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by noajthan » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:42 pm

To avoid confusion & jumbled responses, I have moved your question to its own thread (this one) .
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

ALI97
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Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:25 pm
Pakistan

Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by ALI97 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 12:48 pm

Hi BIG Dobby
Me and my wife both BC
Regards
ALI

BIG Dobby
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by BIG Dobby » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:11 pm

ALI97 wrote:Hi BIG Dobby
I really appriciate your help.
My circumstances are as follows ...came to UK on tier 1 visa on 2009 with three outside born kids ages 14,12 and 10 year ...
Me and my wife get BC after two extensions....
One child born uk in 2009 got BC in 2009 after my and my wife ilr...I am engineer doing permanent job in factory and recently buy house here as well.
My children never visted outside UK since 2009 ,all kids going school for last 7.5 years in ukand I visted outside once for three weeks.
My 3 children still on tier 1 dependent visa ...they got two extension visa will be expire in April 2016
My children grandfather family (Wife parents)is here in uk as well they are BC ...they came uk 2006.
.would like to apply mn1 earlier but home office took a year for my BC application. .
Above is my whole scenario
Actually your case give me lot of hope that I will be successful.
I will be very great full if u can draft me cover letter etc
Kind regards
Ali
If you and ur husband are British Citizens (BCs) and one of your kids is BC, you stand over 80% chances of succeeding.

Your Personal Letter:


*********************************************************************************************************Your Address
Date of Letter

HO address

Dear Sir/Madam

Find enclosed the necessary documentation to ensure successful application in respect of my children’s discretionary application for registration as British citizens. This application has been thoroughly presented to ensure expedited decision (see additional Info).

It may interest you that my wife and I have right of abode as British citizens and I am currently working as an engineer with 'Morrisons'. I became eligible for citizenship because of my 7 years of residence and ties with the UK and my personal property (mortgage)in the UK has strengthened those ties (see attached). The contributions my family and I have made to the UK is phenomenal, which is more economical and its impact on family life can be very psychological. (***add other things about your wife n family)

Name of your children( ***add other things you know about them) is attending school at xxxxx, will be starting year 5 etc. and see the UK as his established home. They, however, want to achieve the same status as their sibling and there may be other children's needs such as the need to go for School trips overseas, lack of safety and security, and sense of belonging – which they may seriously stand in need. they is beginning to come to terms with these and the fact that they are not settled like their only brother and all members of their class. Since both parents are British coupled with fact their only sibling is British holding British citizenship is more adaptable having due regard to their welfare and best interests

I would appreciate it if my children’s application could be given the necessary attention having regard to their family life, private life, welfare and best interests. Should require any further information, please do not hesitate to contact me on 0864489536, **@***.co.uk or ******@**.uk.

Yours faithfylly

pls sign

your full name

BIG Dobby
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by BIG Dobby » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:35 pm

ALI97 wrote:Hi BIG Dobby
Me and my wife both BC
Regards
ALI
**** I don't know y u did not put their application when both of you (husband and wife) were applying for citizenship - U need to make this application as soon as possible since their visa expires in April next year (2017)***** They will never refuse them *** NEVER***

Guide MN1 page 12***Children born abroad to parents who are applying for British citizenship
Where one or both parents are applying for British citizenship they may apply for one
or more children who are not automatically British at birth (see “Automatic acquisition
of British citizenship” above) to be registered as British citizens as part of a “family
application”. Children in this category will be considered at the Home Secretary’s
discretion and will usually be registered only if both the parents are granted or already
hold British citizenship, or if one parent holds British citizenship and the other is
settled in the UK.

ALI97
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Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:25 pm
Pakistan

Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by ALI97 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:53 pm

Hi BIG Dobby
I almost got enough information from you to prepare and apply my case ...just one more thing in letter which you draft ..you not mention about chapter 9.17.2, and 9.17.26 etc and article 8 etc ...would you suggest I add these things to letter as well
Otherwise you draft very good letter .
I am ready to apply in one to two days just cover letter ets left.
Regards
Ali

BIG Dobby
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Posts: 148
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by BIG Dobby » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:28 pm

ALI97 wrote:Hi BIG Dobby
I really appriciate your help.
My circumstances are as follows ...came to UK on tier 1 visa on 2009 with three outside born kids ages 14,12 and 10 year ...
Me and my wife get BC after two extensions....
One child born uk in 2009 got BC in 2009 after my and my wife ilr...I am engineer doing permanent job in factory and recently buy house here as well.
My children never visted outside UK since 2009 ,all kids going school for last 7.5 years in ukand I visted outside once for three weeks.
My 3 children still on tier 1 dependent visa ...they got two extension visa will be expire in April 2016
My children grandfather family (Wife parents)is here in uk as well they are BC ...they came uk 2006.
.would like to apply mn1 earlier but home office took a year for my BC application. .
Above is my whole scenario
Actually your case give me lot of hope that I will be successful.
I will be very great full if u can draft me cover letter etc
Kind regards
Ali
.

Ring them first to confirm they want you to send them email or letter detailing your family circumstances

Write a letter to you MP, GP etc as follows:


Dear ***

Thank you for the email. To understand my circumstances (background info), I have attached
the Home Office guidance policy on the section for the registration of minor at the discretionary
power of the Secretary of State and background info of my family. Please do have a read thru
the first two pages and you will discover it is all about establishing that the child's future lies in
the UK

It may be worthy of note that I came to the UK in 2009 on tier 1 general together with all my children. I worked with ***** and presently acquired a mortgage domiciled at No: ***** Manchester, UK, M15 7TD. Since my arrival, I have not avoided tax neither have we avoided paying NI contributions. My wife and I later naturalised as British citizens over one year ago (e.g)

Names of children** accompanied me to the UK on the 20 April 2009 with a view to living permanently in the UK since I was on entrepreneurial visa. They have been living in the UK for 7 yrs and speak fluent English
with British accent. they won several awards in their schools and are the only foreign national in his class.
(e.g I have the proof ). they are beginning to realise this... they are in year 6, high school etc and there may be a requirement for school trips (e.g abroad) this has the tendency of bringing disadvantage to those who have spent more than half their lives and see the UK as their home. This discretion was introduced in order to remove the disadvantage faced by such families and there are 1001 benefits of British citizenship on minors.

Representations are needed to force through an argument that since the applicants' sponsor is a British citizen and permanently employed with over 7-year residency in the UK and coupled with the fact that their mother and one of their siblings is a British citizen (with 7 year residency in the UK and strong school ties - School name pls*** Road), their future clearly can be seen to lie in the UK and their parents are not
returnable in short or medium term having resided in the UK for more than 7 years (and are British as well).

It's really frustrating that schools are on holiday; but, I still intend to proceed with their application as planned. I will submit school letters as soon as their schools resume in January. If you would like me
to write so that you can make amends and endorse, I would gladly do so.

Should you require any further information, please do no hesitate to contact me on c****u@***co.uk
or xxxxx.

Regards

Name
**Email Only** (add other things u like based on your circumstances)

ALI97
Member
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:25 pm
Pakistan

Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by ALI97 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:48 pm

Hi BIG Dobby
I already got school letters confirming their attendance. ...they give me their standard letter as per their policy
I will attached letter and will let you know about outcome of application .
Thanks
Ali

BIG Dobby
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Posts: 148
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by BIG Dobby » Tue Dec 20, 2016 2:52 pm

ALI97 wrote:Hi BIG Dobby
I almost got enough information from you to prepare and apply my case ...just one more thing in letter which you draft ..you not mention about chapter 9.17.2, and 9.17.26 etc and article 8 etc ...would you suggest I add these things to letter as well
Otherwise you draft very good letter .
I am ready to apply in one to two days just cover letter ets left.
Regards
Ali
That letter covers everything... don't tell them what they already know... pretend u dont know. Try and get a letter from your MP and manager. Ring ur MP now. get Ministers of religion to sign the referee forms. go to their school if its a catholic school see the Rev Fr.

On MN1 Additional Info (pg 31), tell them y you have not included school letter n when you will get it. make sure u get it as promised. tell them that family life is engaged (because both parents are British and one of their sibling as well); tell them that private life is engaged as they have lived more than half of their lives in the UK. Other compelling circumstances: they are in school, made friends lots of friends in the UK, performing excellently in school; speaks fluent English; knows only British culture; both parents have only been absent from the uk for 20 days in 7 years; have mortgage which their established home; have permanent job; included on child benefit as most people get it(dont put tax credit).

You will succeed my dear.

You may conclude in the additional info that *** your support for my children to be registered as British citizens will go a long way to cement their integration and will be very much appreciated**.** dont forget to read all my posts esp. submitting all passports both UK n international - its gonna cost your a lot for guaranteed delivery (make sure they are guaranteed**

*** I have spent the whole day on your case :lol: *** Let me know if you need more help. Good Luck

BIG Dobby
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by BIG Dobby » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:16 pm

ALI97 wrote:Hi BIG Dobby
I already got school letters confirming their attendance. ...they give me their standard letter as per their policy
I will attached letter and will let you know about outcome of application .
Thanks
Ali
I forgot one last thing:

Keep a record of all documents, letters, Recorded delivery receipts etc. even MN1 form.

BIG Dobby
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by BIG Dobby » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:19 pm

noajthan wrote:To avoid confusion & jumbled responses, I have moved your question to its own thread (this one) .
where did u place it? pls provide link

noajthan
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by noajthan » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:25 pm

Its this post that you are now posting in.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

ALI97
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Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2014 5:25 pm
Pakistan

Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by ALI97 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:44 pm

HI BIG dobby
you are champion.
thanks for your kind help .let me compliled everything together and will let you know if I need more help.
Regards
ali

noajthan
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Location: UK

Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by noajthan » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:07 pm

The letters are without doubt very enthusiastic and gung ho.
Not sure they address all key points from relevant section of legislation, for example, as outlined in HO Chapter 9 guidance on BNA.
Future intentions and plans of both the family unit and the minor, a major theme in the guidance, have been overlooked.

A discretionary section 3(1) application is in no way a 1(3) type of entitlement.
If it was there would be no need for a section 3(1) of BNA with all its discretionary elements and caveats.
Its clear settled minors are preferred and even the presence of BC siblings are not necessarily a deciding factor.
Minor issues such as travel for schooltrips are readily addressed by the British Council travel letter scheme.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

BIG Dobby
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by BIG Dobby » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:46 pm

noajthan wrote:The letters are without doubt very enthusiastic and gung ho.
Not sure they address all key points from relevant section of legislation, for example, as outlined in HO Chapter 9 guidance on BNA.
Future intentions and plans of both the family unit and the minor, a major theme in the guidance, have been overlooked.

A discretionary section 3(1) application is in no way a 1(3) type of entitlement.
If it was there would be no need for a section 3(1) of BNA with all its discretionary elements and caveats.
Its clear settled minors are preferred and even the presence of BC siblings are not necessarily a deciding factor.
Minor issues such as travel for school trips are readily addressed by the British Council travel letter scheme.
Additional Info are meant to address other issues. That was exactly the way I wrote mine as it covered all the section 3(1) in chapter 9 of BNA i981. I tell you what: his case is very easy as there are thousands of precedents already set _ they must have to grant it based on Family Unity.

I understood that guidance more than solicitors; Family and private life cover(s) Ch.9.17.2, which is the most important criterion. Next is the Immigration status of parents then where the child's future is likely to lie (it lies with both their parents who are BC and and one of their BC sibling) etc.

I don't know what else you want to add to that. They have to be added to Additional Information (page 31 of MN1 form). That letter conveys all the needed info and he only needs to add little more (dont claim to know much but be more professional in your approach. HO has said that when one parent is British and the child has BC sibling(s), they would register. I have evidence of that here with me. Do u want me to attach or copy and paste it?


That was y mine was successful. If I didn't attach evidence of my child's registration, you would have doubted it... My wife didn't want me to upload it but I later convinced her.


Under entitlement Sec.1(3), you don't even need anything except Form MN1 (properly filled), payment slip and child's birth certificate. I didn't even write a letter nor did I attach my ILR but my child got it in less than 2 months in 2014.


Cheers
Last edited by BIG Dobby on Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

noajthan
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by noajthan » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:57 pm

Noted, no doubt your application succeeded.

However just because someone is British doesn't mean their future is in UK. So discuss it, demonstrate it.
Guidance is clear, even British siblings don't necessarily determine the outcome although may be factored into the equation.

Parents naturalised and/or naturalising are simply a prerequisite and starting point.
Older teens who have enjoyed a shorter life in UK to date obviously have a higher bar to cross. Achievable and realistic targets and life goals based on life in UK should be discussed.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

BIG Dobby
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by BIG Dobby » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:57 pm

noajthan wrote:Noted, no doubt your application succeeded.

However just because someone is British doesn't mean their future is in UK. So discuss it, demonstrate it.
Guidance is clear, even British siblings don't necessarily determine the outcome although may be factored into the equation.

Parents naturalised and/or naturalising are simply a prerequisite and starting point.
Older teens who have enjoyed a shorter life in UK to date obviously have a higher bar to cross. Achievable and realistic targets and life goals based on life in UK should be discussed.
See below -

Legislation was not necessary, as the Secretary of State already had the power (s.3(1) of the 1981 Act), but a policy to exercise that power in these circumstances was needed.

In September 1992, the Secretary of State confirming the adoption of the following new policy:

‘The Secretary of State has decided that each case should be considered individually but against more general criteria than have hitherto been applied. Prerequisite for this more favourable consideration are that a least one of the applicant’s parents is a BC and that the applicant him or her-self is personally acceptable. In such cases, if the applicant has a BC brother or sister, we will register. It will not matter how the brother or sister acquired British citizenship. We will also register applicants who have acceptable residential connections with the UK. If these residential connections do not exist or are considered unsatisfactory, we will look (in a much more informal way) etc.’

I cant remember where I got it the first time. Even though it is discretionary, there are times when HO decisions will be deemed UNLAWFUL and I think this case qualifies as such - likewise mine. If he is not confident then he can go ahead n apply for ILR, period

noajthan
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by noajthan » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:15 pm

It's not clear what you are quoting but its not made its way into nationality instructions...
An application which falls outside these criteria should not normally be approved, even if there are British citizen siblings or siblings with entitlements to registration as a British citizen, unless we are satisfied that registration would be in the child's best interests.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... structions
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

BIG Dobby
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by BIG Dobby » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:29 pm

noajthan wrote:It's not clear what you are quoting but its not made its way into nationality instructions...
An application which falls outside these criteria should not normally be approved, even if there are British citizen siblings or siblings with entitlements to registration as a British citizen, unless we are satisfied that registration would be in the child's best interests.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... structions
It's in the casework guidance, they wont show you that - so don't worry about it. They will only show you Chapter 9 of BNA 1981, which only great minds can understand.

E.g: Chapter 6.9 Representations against refusal:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... n-v6_0.pdf


Official – sensitive: Blank thru out....

In his own case, both parents are British - if you say their future does not lie in the UK - then it may lie in Afghanistan or Iraq when they are both paying taxes in the UK. Food for Thought!
Last edited by BIG Dobby on Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

noajthan
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Re: MN1 section 3(1) application refused

Post by noajthan » Tue Dec 20, 2016 6:32 pm

BIG Dobby wrote:It's in the casework guidance, they wont show you that - so don't worry about it. They will only show you Chapter 9 of BNA 1981, which only great minds can understand.

E.g: Chapter 6.9 Representations against refusal:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... n-v6_0.pdf

Official – sensitive: Blank thru out....
Not possible to comment then.
Long story short: discretion remains discretionary - which is why s.3(1) exists.
All that is gold does not glitter; Not all those who wander are lost. E&OE.

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