Why no HSMP in other European countries?

[rg1]

I wonder why only UK has HSMP scheme?

Do the other EU countries not require immigration? Or do they have similar program which we are not aware of ??

[mym]

The latter in many cases.

[Dawie]

I can't think of a single other European country that has a programme even remotely similar to the HSMP.

Most of the old European countries (like Germany and France) are in denial about the their need for highly skilled immigration and are already suffering because of their hesitation in encouraging it. There are still many obstacles in most European countries preventing the immigration of highly skilled individuals.

[SYH]

Netherlands has Skilled Migrant Program.

[Dawie]

Netherlands has Skilled Migrant Program.

Yes, but it's nothing like the HSMP...it requires an employer to sponsor the individual...not better than a work permit.

[SYH]

Netherlands has Skilled Migrant Program.

Yes, but it's nothing like the HSMP...it requires an employer to sponsor the individual...not better than a work permit.

Thats a judgment call about whehter its like the UK HSMP. Just because the dutch do it differently doesn't mean the purpose isn't the same as HSMP. Basically, the govt allows certain companies who normally have posts that would be of higher caliber than other work sponsored jobs. Further, the job must have a certain salary level. You are not going to get a certain salary level without either the correct experience or educational background. In some ways, it is more straightforward, than this complicated points system that everyone claims is so arbitrary basis to judge a person's skill set as to what they bring to the market

[Dawie]

The thing that makes the HSMP visa stand out amongst all others is that it allows individuals to immigrate independently to the UK without the intervention of a company or sponsor. The Dutch skilled migrant program is nothing more than a work permit system.

To my mind a scheme to attract highly skilled individuals to a country has to allow individuals to immigrate to a country independently to be of any use or value. Without the benefit of an independent skilled migration programme, people will, and do, look elsewhere to migrate where they do not have to be tied to a specific company.

[SYH]

The thing that makes the HSMP visa stand out amongst all others is that it allows individuals to immigrate independently to the UK without the intervention of a company or sponsor. The Dutch skilled migrant program is nothing more than a work permit system.

To my mind a scheme to attract highly skilled individuals to a country has to allow individuals to immigrate to a country independently to be of any use or value. Without the benefit of an independent skilled migration programme, people will, and do, look elsewhere to migrate where they do not have to be tied to a specific company.

I personally find that allowing individuals to immigrate independently to be bonus but sometimes the biggest hurdle is the advertisement nonsense which neither scheme requires to fill the job.

[rg1]

It's bit interesting that all the countries which has an established (similar to) HSMP program (eg. UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) are all English speaking!

[Wanderer]

It's bit interesting that all the countries which has an established (similar to) HSMP program (eg. UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) are all English speaking!

And Commonwealth! Or ex commonwealth if any have left...

[Dawie]

It's bit interesting that all the countries which has an established (similar to) HSMP program (eg. UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand) are all English speaking!

What's also strange is that despite these programs it is still relatively difficult for an Australian to immigrate to the UK or vice versa. You would expect the rich powerful English speaking countries to have some sort of agreement on free movement of their citizens between each other, similar to the EU.

For example, the UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand have economies that are all at very similar levels of development, much more level in fact than many of the economies of the EU, and yet, apart from Australia and New Zealand, there is no free movement for labour between these countries.

Likewise, at a time when borders are falling down all over the EU, the world's longest peaceful border between the USA and Canada is becoming more and more regulated and controlled despite the USA and Canada being virtually identical both economically and culturally.

Isn't it strange how most of the rich English speaking countries of the world are also some of the most paranoid countries too?

[Wanderer]

I was reading that prior to WW1 the UK had no immigration controls, no work permits, nothing.

Foreigners were free to come and go and work and marry just by turning up!

I suppose in those days international travel was a rare thing except for sailors and beyond the means of most, hence the system was self-regulating.

I wonder how things were on the Continent at this time? I've a feeling the borders only went up when mechanised war became a reality and a need to keep people out arrived.

[rg1]

You don't need to go back till WW1. Even during 1970s, almost anyone could come and start living in UK without much hurdle.

If you compare with other countries, qualified people can still come and live in UK (via HSMP & WP etc.) pretty easily - even today!

Regarding Canada & USA - those two countries are actually very much different (though apparently they don't appear so).

If you see websites like www.notcandada.com you'll see that immigrants are having very poor time in Canada.

The so called developed countries are not realizing that the way their population is again, soon they will have more people on benefits/pension than working people!

So, I think in coming future - the borders will more open up! Already there are talks of Europe wide work permit.

The reason I asked my original question, because in UK, most immigrants (outiside of EU) come from its former colonies (India etc.) However, other European countries like France, Germany had their colonies as well. So, I was wondering whether those countries have similar to HSMP rule of their own - might be in French, German websites for which most of us English speaking people don't have visibility.

[Dawie]

The interesting question here is what is fundementally different in the relationship between the USA and Canada compared to the relationships between the EU countries that ensures that the USA and Canada treat each other with enough suspicion so as to ensure their mutual border remains tightly regulated.

Even if their border remains regulated, it is still odd that the USA does not allow Canadian citizens to freely live and work in the USA without restriction, and vice versa.

[rg1]

For illegal immigrants

Mexico -> Canada -> USA

is usually easier than Mexico -> USA


This is quite interesting

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2008-01- ... -labor.htm

The country's five-year program, called the Selection of Qualified Workers project, has only attracted 888 skilled foreign workers from qualified countries over its four and a half year run. The project was authorized to draw in 3,500 workers

The project is open to foreign workers from 12 countries. The countries are Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Canada, India, Kazakhstan, Macedonia, Moldova, Monte Negro, Russian Federation, Serbia, and Ukraine.

[daylebo5]

There was something in the news about a 'Blue Card' for the EU...
nothing is finalised but its does not look as good as some other immigration system like HSMP...

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 62,00.html
http://www.workpermit.com/news/2007_03_ ... ard_01.htm

[Dawie]

For illegal immigrants

Mexico -> Canada -> USA

is usually easier than Mexico -> USA


This is quite interesting

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2008-01- ... -labor.htm

The country's five-year program, called the Selection of Qualified Workers project, has only attracted 888 skilled foreign workers from qualified countries over its four and a half year run. The project was authorized to draw in 3,500 workers

The project is open to foreign workers from 12 countries. The countries are Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Canada, India, Kazakhstan, Macedonia, Moldova, Monte Negro, Russian Federation, Serbia, and Ukraine.

I suspect this has a lot to do with the fact that the Czech Republic is not an English-speaking country, nor are they known for their English-speaking abilities.

Why would someone from, say, India want to emigrate to the Czech Republic?

[global gypsy]

A few points on this topic:
1. The US, a key destination for immigrants from around the world, does not have anything like the HSMP. Their H1B > Green Card route is similar to work permit, i.e. requires an employer's sponsorship. How come the US still attracts the largest number of skilled migrants?
2. Regarding why the Czechs are not able to attract non-EU immigrants, language is a possible reason; a bigger reason must be that its economy is not perceived as attractive enough for someone from, say, India to want to move there. Western countries still score high on migrants' list.
3. You do have some of the newly developed countries such as Singapore emerging as attractive destinations for migrants. It's not clear if they have clearly defined immigration schemes.

[johnsienk]

<original post deleted>

[Christophe]

I wonder why only UK has HSMP scheme?

Do the other EU countries not require immigration? Or do they have similar program which we are not aware of ??

An interesting thread. One relevant point, I think, is that European countries have, until recently, perceived themselves as countries of emigration rather than immigration. In many cases that perception has been correct (in some cases it still is). Although the UK was different, in that many people went to live in the colonies (later Commonwealth countries), nevertheless relocating to a Commonwealth country was somehow not seen in the same light, by many people, as "emigrating" to a non-Commonwealth country. This perception prevailed, I think, until well after the Second World War.

It is true that up to the 1960s, it was easy for citizens of Commonwealth countries (not non-Commonwealth countries, necessarily) to come and live and work in the UK - basically, if you were say, an Australian in 1960, you just turned up. Again, though, this was not seen in the same light as immigration from non-Commonwealth countries.

Even through the 1970s and 1980s, the UK did not have any sort of immigration programme in the way that, say, Australia or New Zealand or even the USA did. Some citizens of Commonwealth countries retained a greater or lesser right to come to and work and settle in the UK, and many did, and of course citizens of EU/EEA countries came to have the right to settle in the UK as well, and again many did.

But it is only belatedly - now - that the UK is coming to see it self as a country of immigration (it remains a country of emigration - it is both); and other European countries have been even slower to recognise their changed status in this regard - look at Ireland, whose immigration system seems to be in a total mess, still operating - it seems - on the basis that there will be so few immigrants that each case can be dealt with individually on its own merits.

Countries such as the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand have always relied on the influx of new people to boost their economy and, to an extent, to fill the country. This is something new for European countries. Indeed, Australia has something of the same problem in reverse - it is now a country of emigration (as well as immigration), but the Australian population and the Australian lawmakers are only slowly coming to terms with this idea: it is a new perception of Australia for them.

[sakura]

>>Why would someone from, say, India want to emigrate to the Czech Republic?

India:

GDP per capita (World Bank, 2006): $720

Chech Republic:

GDP per capita (World Bank, 2006): $10.710


India: ramshackle economy (for most anyway)

Chech Republic: high standard of living, EU member

How many Indians do you know (or can you imagine) that speak Czech? Now, how many do you know that speak English?

That's Dawie's point...

[Christophe]

[What's also strange is that despite these programs it is still relatively difficult for an Australian to immigrate to the UK or vice versa. You would expect the rich powerful English speaking countries to have some sort of agreement on free movement of their citizens between each other, similar to the EU.

I agree, Dawie. What's more, my suspicion is that a large proportion of the populations of these countries would agree too, if the matter was ever raised. (In fact, not an insubstantial number of people in these countries seem to think that such a situation does exist already!

[rg1]

India:

GDP per capita (World Bank, 2006): $720

Statistics can be highly misleading


It's the average income highly skewed by 40% of Indians living below poverty line! Those who want to migrate from India (similar to HSMP) they usually earn over $15000/year.

[chem1]

This thread is interesting. Ive just skimmed it mostly.

What I really dont understand about these large EU countries of continental Europe (France, Spain, Germany, Italy..etc.) is the difficulty in obtaining proper papers to live and work in them. Like I know they are all quite xenophobic to a certain extent but all have birth rates well below the 2.0 per women necessary for maintaining a viable workforce. This is just for a normal workforce and doesnt take into account the amount of skilled and professional labour they will eventually need.

I am Canadian so have never had to 'immigrate' here but it seems that Canada is very well aware of decreasing birth rates and the need for highly skilled labour. It appears Canada is able to accomodate a lot of highly skilled labour as well based on what Ive seen in various work places throughout Canada. I also think Canada has benefitted greatly in an economic sense for this...not to mention in a social sense as well.

So I guess Im just at times a bit mystified by these large western european countries and their immigration practices...especially toward highly skilled professionals.

[johnsienk]

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