DUAL NATIONALITY (UK/IRISH) EEA APPLICATION ISSUE

[xsx]

Hello folks..
Some great work goes on around here and since it's most often a very lonely business trying to figure out where the goalposts have been moved to, I've had a great read so far.

I'll give you my situation right now (partly to try and understand it myself by writing it down) and would appreciate any feedback on it.
Apologies in advance for the head-twisting of the dual citizenship thing

I'm Belfast-born and therefore entitled to both UK and IRISH passports and citizenship. At the moment I've only ever had an British passport but for the purposes of applying for a residence card for my japanese 'durable partner' (4 years cohabiting in April), I understand that I'll be applying via the European method by using my Irish citizenship to be 'an EEA national currently outside country of origin' as is required.

For those in the know, what this means is that I haven't gone anywhere (I'm still in Belfast) but just changed the frame of reference as the dual citizenship allows. Therefore I'm acting as an Irish EEA National who is in the UK (N.Ireland) and using that Irish EEA National status to support my partner's residence card application. That way, I'm not a UK National for HO purposes.

Now...the thing is...I don't want to surrender my passport as I need it to get around for work (I'm self-employed) so I'm wondering if sending my previous cancelled passport together with a copy of my current one together with my birth certificate will satisfy the HO?
As I see it, I have to identify myself which the old passport does (and the copy of current one reinforces) AND confirm my place of birth to establish my Irish citizenship (the passports state place of birth anyway but I've been told that sending birth certificate is often required unless you're sending an Irish passport in my situation)

Any thoughts or experiences with this, anyone?

Thanks in advance....

[yankeegirl]

I'm assuming it's your British passport you don't want to send? If so, another option would be to apply for an Irish passport and send the Irish one with the application.

[xsx]

Yes, it was the British one I want to hold onto and your suggestion is spot on, I know.
I'm kicking myself for not thinking of it earlier but I just got to grips with all of this a few weeks ago and it's probably just a little too late to apply for an Irish passport just now. My partner's current visa expires on Feb 6 so gotta move with the EEA app!

Anyway, it's patently obvious to anybody even vaguely connected with Immigration issues (although possibly not at the HO) that someone born in Belfast is both an Irish citizen and a UK citizen by birth so I doubt it'll be a problem on that score. I'm just wondering whether anyone else has sent an expired passport as photo evidence of their identity. Can't see why it would be unacceptable as I'm not actually applying for anything as such but just supporting my partner's app.

The other thing that has occurred to me is that on May 31st my partner will have been in the UK legitimately for 5 years and can therefore apply for the 10 year stamp on the EEA4 form.
I've been thinking that sending my outdated passport even if it isn't acceptable might be a good way to bridge to this date

beeeeecause

As long as she applies before Feb 6, she will continue to be allowed to remain and work in the UK (as she's currently on a working visa) while awaiting confirmation of her existing right to remain under EU law.

AND if her application stalls because of my not having sent current passport, I'll most likely receive notification that they need the proper one and to cut a long story short, it'll probably be May 31 by then..

Any thoughts?

Or am I really getting cocky now

It's this dual citizenship thing. It drives you mad thinking about it.
I'm a foreigner in my own country. Erm...or something.
It's all a bit Flann O'Brien in the end

[yankeegirl]

What visa is your partner currently in the UK on?

The only thing about "switching" to the EEA route is she will essentially have to start over. She will first have to get the 5 year residence card and then permanent residence after that.

I'm not sure about the passport thing. I know a couple of British/Irish dual nationals who have used the EEA route to have their spouse come to Norn Iron but they already had both passports so they just submitted the Irish one. I suppose you could call the Law Center in Belfast and ask.

I also got your message about Surinder Singh. It wouldn't apply here, since you are also an Irish citizen. That rule would apply for a British (no dual nationality) citizen living in another state (France for example) with thier non-EU family, and then wanting to move back to the UK. So, no need for you to move down south!

Just a thought here...if you really want to go the EEA route, you do not have to send your passport at the same time as her application. You can find out how long it takes to get an Irish one (I think its a few weeks) and then attach a cover letter to your partners application explaining that you are waiting to receive your passport and you will post it ASAP. Submit your birth cert in the meantime. Just make sure you apply for the passport before sending off the EEA2 application, you'll probably need the birth cert for the passport application.

[xsx]

Hi...my partner is currently on the Overseas Nursing Programme visa and recently received her nursing registration for the UK.
I did talk to the law centre via the Citizen's Advice Bureau and it was they who said that birth certificate is normally acceptable as evidence of Irish citizenship.

[JAJ]

I'm Belfast-born and therefore entitled to both UK and IRISH passports and citizenship. At the moment I've only ever had an British passport but for the purposes of applying for a residence card for my japanese 'durable partner' (4 years cohabiting in April), I understand that I'll be applying via the European method by using my Irish citizenship to be 'an EEA national currently outside country of origin' as is required.

There is a chance that they will want to see a valid Irish passport. So it might be an idea to apply for one, assuming you have no strong objections to same.

Are you aware of the disadvantage of using the European rules compared to the U.K. Immigration rules? Does your partner want to become a British citizen?

[xsx]

Thanks for replying.
She doesn't want to become a British Citizen as doing that would negate her japanese citizenship (you cannot hold dual nationality in Japan).

It's too close to the expiry of her current ONP (overseas Nursing Programme) for me to hang on for an Irish passport so I'm going to assume that since I'm only identifying myself in support of HER application that my medical card, birth certificate, previous passport and photocopy of current passport will suffice.

As I mentioned previously, she will eligible at the end of May to seek confirmation of her right to remain and work via the EEA4 so I'm also working on the assumption that once the application on the EEA2 is with the HO, we'll at the very least bridge to that date, even if the ID I've sent becomes a problem and they want a valid Irish passport. I've read the actual legislation and since I AM an Irish citizen by virtue of birth and my documents confirm my place of birth, that should be OK

What do you think?

Are you aware of the disadvantage of using the European rules compared to the U.K. Immigration rules? Does your partner want to become a British citizen?

[xsx]

JAJ, if you don't mind explaining the disadvantage of the EEA vs UK, that would be appreciated too. Thank you in advance.

[yankeegirl]

The main disadvantage is the length of time it would take to acquire British citizenship.

EU Regulations: Apply for 5 year Residence Card. Upon expiry of that apply for PR. Eligible to apply for British citizenship 1 year after gaining PR, so total of 6 years before eligible. All Eu applications are free, but can take longer to process.

UK Immigration Rules: 2 year spousal visa (£395 by post), and then apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain (£750 by post). Must take and pass Life in the UK test before getting ILR. I year after ILR, able to apply for British citizenship, so time shortened to 3 years to be able to apply for citizenship.

[xsx]

Thanks again for replies. As I said, British citizenship would not be our aim in this case because, if anything, I'd be more interested in becoming a Japanese citizen than she would in becoming a British citizen.

[sakura]

Thanks again for replies. As I said, British citizenship would not be our aim in this case because, if anything, I'd be more interested in becoming a Japanese citizen than she would in becoming a British citizen.

Well, I'm sure you know that, if you became a Japanese citizen, you'd have to renounce all other citizenships...

[xsx]

He he. What I meant, Sakura, was that neither of us are interested in switching citizenship, I guess...

Something I wanted to say about the European immigration route that the HO tries to make us all forget as much as possible is that we have rights that exist whether or not they've 'approved' them! Although I'm not aware of any lawyers being onto this in its fullness it does mean that, potentially, those who are paying £500 this year (under the UK Immigration system) to get 'approval' of a right existing already under EU law, should, in principle at least be entitled to legal redress for being, effectively, 'hoodwinked'

I'm sure a lot of you gurus are giving your time and experience and expertise here to try to bring this home to others less aware of it but even when you're aware it's easy to get dragged into 'proving' rights which don't need to be proved at all.

Essentially a lot of people are spending a lot of worry and being prevented from having their passport while asking the HO to confirm their existing rights! Which is a bit like going to the supermarket and joining a queue to have your right to buy confirmed.

Just a weary observation...

[JAJ]

The main disadvantage is the length of time it would take to acquire British citizenship.

EU Regulations: Apply for 5 year Residence Card. Upon expiry of that apply for PR. Eligible to apply for British citizenship 1 year after gaining PR, so total of 6 years before eligible. All Eu applications are free, but can take longer to process.

All this is correct except that if the EEA spouse is also a British citizen, and there is a legal marriage/civil partnership then there is no need to wait 1 year after PR.

[xsx]

^Yes..I first came across the EEA route (and must acknowledge both this board and Yankeegirl as the original info source on it) while looking for a way around the ridiculous (I'm paraphrasing loosely here)
'A british citizen has to get permission to get married to someone from abroad (eg. Asia) and this partner, if they're living in the UK, has to GO BACK TO THEIR OWN COUNTRY while waiting for it'

Of course this is another point that's been successfully challenged in EU Law but I didn't know that then.

[thsths]

Although I'm not aware of any lawyers being onto this in its fullness it does mean that, potentially, those who are paying £500 this year (under the UK Immigration system) to get 'approval' of a right existing already under EU law, should, in principle at least be entitled to legal redress for being, effectively, 'hoodwinked'

While I do agree in principle, I do not think that the Home Office is unique in this. The local administration in Holland tried the same with us, and I am sure other countries are making foreigners pay, too.

Or think about companies: they never tell you about the cheap options, but always try to sell you unnecessary extras. So I think the conclusion is that you should always be skeptical, and only pay what you really have to.

[Pasha]

Hello,

I am an Irish and British citizen and applied for my Irish passport to facilitate my wifes EEA 2 application. My Irish Citizenship was obtained by decent and I applied to the Irish Embassy in London.

I applied in person and collected it in person. Admittedly my wife and I spent some time collating the supporting documents for my application (such as obtaining copies of my parent birth certificate and having my photo verified etc) and was even told by the passport officer that because the application was so organised my passport application will be processed alot quicker, which it was...it took exactly ONE day!

If time is not on your side, am I right in thinking that you can submit evidence whilst the Home Office is considering the EEA 2 application? If this is the case, perhaps submit your application for your Irish Passport before the EEA 2 application is submitted and add your Irish Passport to the application once you have obtained it?

[JAJ]

Something I wanted to say about the European immigration route that the HO tries to make us all forget as much as possible is that we have rights that exist whether or not they've 'approved' them! Although I'm not aware of any lawyers being onto this in its fullness it does mean that, potentially, those who are paying £500 this year (under the UK Immigration system) to get 'approval' of a right existing already under EU law, should, in principle at least be entitled to legal redress for being, effectively, 'hoodwinked'

You need to understand that those who want British citizenship more quickly may well want to use the U.K. Immigration system.

[xsx]

Pasha...thanks for the tip.
The reason I hadn't applied for an Irish Passport before now (other than I didn't need it for everyday purposes) was that while I realised I was entitled to both Irish and British passports by birth, I'd never actually realised that you could hold these SIMULTANEOUSLY.
I always thought you could have one or the other but not both.

So anyway, given the time factor and not being near an Irish embassy that does one-day processing right now I'm submitting birth certificate, previous British passport and copy of current British passport and think this will do since as far as I've read and understood the legislation requires that I am an Irish citizen NOT that I currently have an Irish passport, if you see what I mean.

For the purposes of the EEA, the reason for getting an Irish passport is a bit like the EEA application itself...you're just getting a document which conveniently confirms rights you already HOLD.

Because all I need to be an Irish citizen is to have been born on the island of Ireland, my birth certificate serves the same purpose.

I agree that in all of these things, setting out your evidence very systematically and well-presented is probably more important than the nature of the evidence itself. If it looks considered and in order, it'll most likely move to the 'approved' pile with less scrutiny. In other words, taking time to make it easy for the person looking at it to approve it is making things easier for yourself in the end.

Hello,

I am an Irish and British citizen and applied for my Irish passport to facilitate my wifes EEA 2 application. My Irish Citizenship was obtained by decent and I applied to the Irish Embassy in London.

I applied in person and collected it in person. Admittedly my wife and I spent some time collating the supporting documents for my application (such as obtaining copies of my parent birth certificate and having my photo verified etc) and was even told by the passport officer that because the application was so organised my passport application will be processed alot quicker, which it was...it took exactly ONE day!

If time is not on your side, am I right in thinking that you can submit evidence whilst the Home Office is considering the EEA 2 application? If this is the case, perhaps submit your application for your Irish Passport before the EEA 2 application is submitted and add your Irish Passport to the application once you have obtained it?

[JAJ]

For the purposes of the EEA, the reason for getting an Irish passport is a bit like the EEA application itself...you're just getting a document which conveniently confirms rights you already HOLD.

Because all I need to be an Irish citizen is to have been born on the island of Ireland, my birth certificate serves the same purpose.

You need to prove your status as an Irish citizen. British immigration officers are not expected to be up to speed on the citizenship laws of nearly 30 countries.