Please help - regarding overstayer caught on exit

[air123]

My brother has been in UK since October 1994, overstayed his visitor visa. He was only 16 when he came to UK and since then he lived here though his status was overstayer. He has been in and out of country for 4-5 weeks each time during this almost 14 years but never stopped on exit and could get another visit visa from back home to come again. Last time he came to UK was in August 2005. So he was overstayed again for 2.5 years.

He completed all his education from here including A-levels and BSc. Because of his immigration status he could not get any work so was financially dependent on me.

He was planning to apply under 14 years long residence rule in October this year.

Being very unfortunate, he decided to go go back to our country and apply for student visa to study MSc. He got a offer form Reading univdesity and he left last night for Pakistan to apply for student visa. However, this time he was stopped by immmigration authorities on exit who noticed his overstayed status and served him with removal notice. He told me this story on phone from airport so I am not sure what form he was served with. He was leaving the country himself and not forcely removed.

I agree that he shouldn't have been violating his visa terms to avoid this situation but all this happened due to reasons we all immediate family members are setteled here. He has no ties in Pakistan. He is very upset because living in UK all his life he cant adjust in Pakistan. He has no family/friends there.

I need help from experienced members of this forum to advise me how can he be helped. What should be the best approach to get him back in UK? Is it ok for him to apply for student visa? will it be possible for him to enter UK again on student visa or even visitor visa?? Has his clock for 14 years long term residence stopped once served with removal notice?? Are there any human rights ground he can return to UK?? Any good solicitor I can get in Pakistan to sort this out??

I appreciate your urgent valueable advise in this matter. Thanks.

[Wanderer]

My immediate thoughts;

1. I think as he is now in Pakistan with no UK LTR his 14 year clock has not only stopped but has been reset.

2. Human rights is always difficult - don't bank on that one, he can have his human rights in his own country will be the HO mantra...

3. There's no excuse for overstaying his visa in these circumstances.

4. It's not going to be easy to get him back IMHO, overstaying is now one of the seven deadly sins and the HO needs to show it's figures to the populace for the next election...

[air123]

My immediate thoughts;

1. I think as he is now in Pakistan with no UK LTR his 14 year clock has not only stopped but has been reset.

2. Human rights is always difficult - don't bank on that one, he can have his human rights in his own country will be the HO mantra...

3. There's no excuse for overstaying his visa in these circumstances.

4. It's not going to be easy to get him back IMHO, overstaying is now one of the seven deadly sins and the HO needs to show it's figures to the populace for the next election...

Thanks for your quick reply. He never had LTR in UK for all the time he was in UK. I believed 14 year concession is for legal and illegal stay?? Can he be in the country in any other category like student visa?? What if he gets fresh passport from Pakistan and apply for student or visitor visa? Will ECO be able to track his case of being served with removal on exit?? Thanks.

[Wanderer]

Thanks for your quick reply. He never had LTR in UK for all the time he was in UK. I believed 14 year concession is for legal and illegal stay?? Can he be in the country in any other category like student visa?? What if he gets fresh passport from Pakistan and apply for student or visitor visa? Will ECO be able to track his case of being served with removal on exit?? Thanks.

Yes but I understand it's 14 years CONTINUOUS legal/illegal stay - I could be wrong and often am - wait for others to respond...

I feel sure the position now as it stands is his ILR clock has been reset to zero since he is not present in the UK and has not EC for UK in any capacity.

Any further visa is gonna be very hard with a massive overstay like this, IMO...

I think his passport will have been marked with the removal stamp but in any case I think u are bound to declare on the visa app form any immigration transgressions so a new passport won't help. Was he fingerprinted on removal?

Let's not forget nowadays it's impossible to know what the IO's and ECO's record so I wouldn't advise trying the circumvent the system with 'lost' passports.

Wait for others, I'm notoriously pessimistic on this board, which is actually nothing like my real persona!

[kg1983]

It is 14 years continuous stay. Leaving the country resets your clock.

[air123]

I think his passport will have been marked with the removal stamp but in any case I think u are bound to declare on the visa app form any immigration transgressions so a new passport won't help. Was he fingerprinted on removal?

No, he wasn't finger printed. His passport hasn't been marked with removal stamp. They only wrote some removal reference number on passport's EC page. I believe this is the same number as was on the removal form they gave him. Is it same as removal stamp???

[air123]

It is 14 years continuous stay. Leaving the country resets your clock.

I have been to a solicitor few months back to discuss this 14 years long residence case and was advised that you can still be considered in long residence concession as long as you dont spend more than 3 continous months outside uk. That means you can still leave the country during 14 years but not for more than 3 months at any one period. He has been going out after every 2-3 years for 3-4 weeks. That means his clock stopped/reset evreytime he left the country?? even if he was not caught by immigration authorities??

[paulp]

I have been to a solicitor few months back to discuss this 14 years long residence case and was advised that you can still be considered in long residence concession as long as you dont spend more than 3 continous months outside uk. That means you can still leave the country during 14 years but not for more than 3 months at any one period. He has been going out after every 2-3 years for 3-4 weeks. That means his clock stopped/reset evreytime he left the country?? even if he was not caught by immigration authorities??

The 14 year hopefuls I've known stayed put here in the UK, just in case they would not be let back in the country. Your brother was quite lucky not to be found out by the BHC in Islamabad after so many overstays.

[air123]

I have been to a solicitor few months back to discuss this 14 years long residence case and was advised that you can still be considered in long residence concession as long as you dont spend more than 3 continous months outside uk. That means you can still leave the country during 14 years but not for more than 3 months at any one period. He has been going out after every 2-3 years for 3-4 weeks. That means his clock stopped/reset evreytime he left the country?? even if he was not caught by immigration authorities??

The 14 year hopefuls I've known stayed put here in the UK, just in case they would not be let back in the country. Your brother was quite lucky not to be found out by the BHC in Islamabad after so many overstays.

Yes, he was very lucky to get visitpr's visa everytime. That only made him think that he will be lucky agian with student visa as he alsready had lots of stamps on his passport.

I just spoke to someone at Named OISC advisors and along with student visa application they mentioned that there is possibality to sponsor someone on dependant relative visa even if there age is below 60 as long as this can be proved that they are living there in very exceptional circumstances. They also said that it is vey very difficult to prove this?? Anyone here ever done this?? PLEASE HELP. Thanks.

[paulp]

I just spoke to someone at Named OISC advisors and along with student visa application they mentioned that there is possibality to sponsor someone on dependant relative visa even if there age is below 60 as long as this can be proved that they are living there in very exceptional circumstances. They also said that it is vey very difficult to prove this?? Anyone here ever done this?? PLEASE HELP. Thanks.

So, your brother was 16 in 1994. He must now be 30. I think a dependant relative visa will be very difficult as he's a fine young man who can earn a living on his own.

[Decus et Tutamen]

How has your brother been managing to get new visit visas each time he has left the UK? Evidently he must have been misrepresenting himself to the visa officer when reapplying, and what about the Pakistani immigration officers' arrival stamps? Did he bung them a few quid to change the date on their stamps to make it look as if he'd stayed only two weeks in the UK instead of two years?

His details will be circulated on the immigration computer system. When he applies for another visa, that he has been served with an IS151A as either an illegal entrant or somneone liable to section 10 removal, will be spotted by the visa officer. If he lies on his application form he does not stand a chance of getting a visa. If he tells the truth, he stands as equally little chance.

[Wanderer]

I have been to a solicitor few months back to discuss this 14 years long residence case and was advised that you can still be considered in long residence concession as long as you dont spend more than 3 continous months outside uk. That means you can still leave the country during 14 years but not for more than 3 months at any one period. He has been going out after every 2-3 years for 3-4 weeks. That means his clock stopped/reset evreytime he left the country?? even if he was not caught by immigration authorities??

The 14 year hopefuls I've known stayed put here in the UK, just in case they would not be let back in the country. Your brother was quite lucky not to be found out by the BHC in Islamabad after so many overstays.

Yes, he was very lucky to get visitpr's visa everytime. That only made him think that he will be lucky agian with student visa as he alsready had lots of stamps on his passport.

I just spoke to someone at Named OISC advisors and along with student visa application they mentioned that there is possibality to sponsor someone on dependant relative visa even if there age is below 60 as long as this can be proved that they are living there in very exceptional circumstances. They also said that it is vey very difficult to prove this?? Anyone here ever done this?? PLEASE HELP. Thanks.

I think your really clutching at straws now......

[Decus et Tutamen]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought the purpose of this forum was to guide people through the sometimes-rather-complex UK immigration laws, not to, as the OP seems to believe, help his brother perpetuate the criminal lies, cheating and deceit which he has practised for the last fourteen years.

Your brother's been caught at it. His only chance of getting back to the UK is to tell the truth and attempt to convince the visa officer that his intentions are honourable which, given his previous, will be quite a monumental task.

I'm sorry if I come across as callous and uncaring, but such instances of brazen abuse, where the perpetrator still believes, despite all the lies, that he has a God-given right to come back to the UK, really does get my goat.

[cityflyer80]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought the purpose of this forum was to guide people through the sometimes-rather-complex UK immigration laws, not to, as the OP seems to believe, help his brother perpetuate the criminal lies, cheating and deceit which he has practised for the last fourteen years.

Your brother's been caught at it. His only chance of getting back to the UK is to tell the truth and attempt to convince the visa officer that his intentions are honourable which, given his previous, will be quite a monumental task.

I'm sorry if I come across as callous and uncaring, but such instances of brazen abuse, where the perpetrator still believes, despite all the lies, that he has a God-given right to come back to the UK, really does get my goat.

I couldn't agree with you more. Stories like this so outrage me. All that counts is that your brother lived here ilegally. Thankfully, he got caught by the system and he never deserves to return to the UK again. You can waffle on about his studies here but the fact is he doesn't deserve to live in the UK as an overstayer. I'm sorry for the harsh language but you can do nothing to change it.

[paulp]

Leaving all of our personal feelings aside, your brother will find it very difficult to come back.

[Administrator]

.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought the purpose of this forum was to guide people through the sometimes-rather-complex UK immigration laws, not to, as the OP seems to believe, help his brother perpetuate the criminal lies, cheating and deceit which he has practised for the last fourteen years.

Your brother's been caught at it. His only chance of getting back to the UK is to tell the truth and attempt to convince the visa officer that his intentions are honourable which, given his previous, will be quite a monumental task.

I'm sorry if I come across as callous and uncaring, but such instances of brazen abuse, where the perpetrator still believes, despite all the lies, that he has a God-given right to come back to the UK, really does get my goat.

Any person can come to this forum to ask questions. People wishing to engage in illegal activities will be discouraged (possibly reported), so we urgently recommend against such activities here.

In this case, nobody asked for help to engage in (further) illegal activity. A person has come here anonymously to ask for advice, and has provided honest (I hope) and detailed information so that experienced members here may respond.

The questions remains: are there any legal options? What might possibly be done?


People who do not wish to engage constructively in such answers are under no obligation to post.


All that said, in this situation, I don't see very many, if any, options.

The brother has the advantages of a UK education and extensive experience and language skills in the UK. That can be leveraged toward a prosperous life in many locations in the world.

Getting back into Britain (or any other western country such as the U.S., Canada, Australia, the EU, etc.) is going to be immensely difficult at this point.

Perhaps impossible.

Keep in mind that this may last for a long time (five or ten years, perhaps life) depending on each country.

What is VERY IMPORTANT: do not lie on any future applications. Any lies or deceptions that get recorded in immigration attempts from here on out can (likely will) result in lifetime bans.

the Admin

[air123]

.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought the purpose of this forum was to guide people through the sometimes-rather-complex UK immigration laws, not to, as the OP seems to believe, help his brother perpetuate the criminal lies, cheating and deceit which he has practised for the last fourteen years.

Your brother's been caught at it. His only chance of getting back to the UK is to tell the truth and attempt to convince the visa officer that his intentions are honourable which, given his previous, will be quite a monumental task.

I'm sorry if I come across as callous and uncaring, but such instances of brazen abuse, where the perpetrator still believes, despite all the lies, that he has a God-given right to come back to the UK, really does get my goat.

Any person can come to this forum to ask questions. People wishing to engage in illegal activities will be discouraged (possibly reported), so we urgently recommend against such activities here.

In this case, nobody asked for help to engage in (further) illegal activity. A person has come here anonymously to ask for advice, and has provided honest (I hope) and detailed information so that experienced members here may respond.

The questions remains: are there any legal options? What might possibly be done?


People who do not wish to engage constructively in such answers are under no obligation to post.


All that said, in this situation, I don't see very many, if any, options.

The brother has the advantages of a UK education and extensive experience and language skills in the UK. That can be leveraged toward a prosperous life in many locations in the world.

Getting back into Britain (or any other western country such as the U.S., Canada, Australia, the EU, etc.) is going to be immensely difficult at this point.

Perhaps impossible.

Keep in mind that this may last for a long time (five or ten years, perhaps life) depending on each country.

What is VERY IMPORTANT: do not lie on any future applications. Any lies or deceptions that get recorded in immigration attempts from here on out can (likely will) result in lifetime bans.

the Admin

Many thanks for your contribution. First of all I like to make clear that although he violated immigration rules by overstaying his visa but he didn't bribe, as suggested one of the members here, to immigration staff at airports in Pakistan. It was BHC who failed each and everytime to check/match his dates of departure/arrival on passport and even never called him for inteview.

He has been offered a place for MSc at university. He is intending to apply for student visa to start this course. Do you recommend he should disclose this problem in application himself or you suggest to wait till they ask about his immigration problem during the interview process? Thanks.

[paulp]

He has been offered a place for MSc at university. He is intending to apply for student visa to start this course. Do you recommend he should disclose this problem in application himself or you suggest to wait till they ask about his immigration problem during the interview process? Thanks.

I don't know if the BHC in Islamabad uses online or paper applications, but you will find that the VAF3 Student form has very recently (past year) ballooned in the number of pages and now asks for more intrusive questions, both for the applicant and the persons he will be living with.

There is also the question:
5.5 Have you ever been deported, removed or otherwise required to leave any country, including the UK in the last 10 years?

To which he will have to answer truthfully or he will be in deep trouble.

[air123]

He has been offered a place for MSc at university. He is intending to apply for student visa to start this course. Do you recommend he should disclose this problem in application himself or you suggest to wait till they ask about his immigration problem during the interview process? Thanks.

I don't know if the BHC in Islamabad uses online or paper applications, but you will find that the VAF3 Student form has very recently (past year) ballooned in the number of pages and now asks for more intrusive questions, both for the applicant and the persons he will be living with.

There is also the question:
5.5 Have you ever been deported, removed or otherwise required to leave any country, including the UK in the last 10 years?

To which he will have to answer truthfully or he will be in deep trouble.

Thanks for your comments. BHC in Pakistan use paper applications. I have been through to the application form with him while he was here. He will answer to 5.5 truthfully.

I fully agree with you guys here that he shouldn't have violated the laws at first place but the reason for his leaving the country himself was to regularise his stay. One thing I want to make clear is, during his stay here he never worked. He has been only studying full time and stayed home. So his reason for overstaying was not to work illegally.

Living here this long he has established a family life here. I am wondering if we can make an appeal on human rights basis??

He was not able to get any job in his field of engineering becuase of his status. We advised him to do a masters course in computer science on student visa and apply for work permit after the completion. Doing his masters in computing will improve his chances to successfully get a sponsor.

I just wanted to know if anyone here experienced/know any similar cases where student visa was granted despite IS151A? You guys recommend it will be wise to make application through any UK based solicitor?

[Wanderer]

There is no human rights issue here. He has the benefit of a UK education, he is a Pakistani national, he should do well in his home country. The HO will argue where have his human rights been violated? The only violations have been of UK immigration rules.

Overstaying the lastest addition to the HO list of deadly sins, with such a terrible uk immigration record it's unlikely he'll be successful in any applications for LTR in UK.

I'm on the fence in issues such as this, the guy has obviously built a life in the UK but at the same time he's had flagrant disregard for the rules while he's been here so he has to pay the price. Added to that it's just taking the piiss out of all of us who abide by the rules.

[mym]

The bans on entry for deception and overstaying are now being specified - read http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=23281

[try-one]

Air123,
The UK immigration system is changing each minute; general concensus is that the UK must have stronger, more effective ways of controlling who enters, lives and leaves the country.
Most students and visitors are being fingerprinted at the local embassies and stronger controls are being slowly rolled out; the consequences of breaking the laws are being applied more consistently and to a broader group of individuals.
The board has provided you with clear information: - His clock is likely to have been reset (he was stopped and served IS151A), - He is a healthy adult with UK free academic qualifications, - if he reveals his immigration history he would have to disclose that he not only overstayed once during several years, but he has done it many times.
Being a brother it is natural to want your family to be toghether, my personal suggestion is to do two things: read the immigration law and guidance so you clearly understand your current situation, once you understand the situation, engage an immigration expert to help you articulate and implement your planned strategy. (it won't be easy as you probably know by now).
And more importantly, try to follow the laws of this country that you and your family have chosen as your home.....you had many opportunities to get a proper visa, don't waste this one.

[air123]

Air123,
The UK immigration system is changing each minute; general concensus is that the UK must have stronger, more effective ways of controlling who enters, lives and leaves the country.
Most students and visitors are being fingerprinted at the local embassies and stronger controls are being slowly rolled out; the consequences of breaking the laws are being applied more consistently and to a broader group of individuals.
The board has provided you with clear information: - His clock is likely to have been reset (he was stopped and served IS151A), - He is a healthy adult with UK free academic qualifications, - if he reveals his immigration history he would have to disclose that he not only overstayed once during several years, but he has done it many times.
Being a brother it is natural to want your family to be toghether, my personal suggestion is to do two things: read the immigration law and guidance so you clearly understand your current situation, once you understand the situation, engage an immigration expert to help you articulate and implement your planned strategy. (it won't be easy as you probably know by now).
And more importantly, try to follow the laws of this country that you and your family have chosen as your home.....you had many opportunities to get a proper visa, don't waste this one.

Many thanks for your kind suggesstion. He is genuinely trying to get back on studenta visa to start his Msc legally. I am still waiting for the paper IO handed him on leaving the UK, to varify if it was IS151A. May be its not IS151A. According to him they stopped him hardly for 5 mins and only wrote some refrence number on his EC page. didn't take any other details from him or entered any information into their system. This may be wrong though.

Depending what he was served with, I am planning to engage immigaration lawyer's services. I wish if he didn't get stopped this time so that he could qualify for 14 years long residence concession. This is what he has been waiting for this long, otherwise he was very keen on getting Australi's immigration done. We wanted him to first complete 14 years to atleast get UK citizenship. I have looked at home office website and for other people's information, to be eligible for this category, short absences from UK are allowed. You dont need to be continously in UK during the whole 14 years period. These absences should not exceed longer than 3 months though.

[INSIDER]

You dont need to be continously in UK during the whole 14 years period. These absences should not exceed longer than 3 months though.

True, but now he is a notified ovestayer, how does he intend coming back to the UK? He is unlikely to be granted any type of visa.

[air123]

Hi everyone. Thanks for all your support (ones who know they contributed positively). Just to let you guys know, my brother has been granted student visa to study MSc in London. There were some background checks but no interviews.