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Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

A section for posts relating to applications for Naturalisation or Registration as a British Citizen. Naturalisation

Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, CR001, zimba, meself2

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Scouse Mouse
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Registering as a British Citizen by Descent UKM

Post by Scouse Mouse » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:36 pm

Hi, born in the USA 1962 (American Dad married British Mother) and living in the UK since 1965 on an American passport. Only ever had an ILR stamp in my passports. Now I find myself out of work and suddenly after 37 years of working in the UK I now find the law has changed and as my new passport has no stamp I cannot legally work.

I can apply for a Biometric Residency Permit and this costs £271? (can't find the link to the gov.uk fee page) and I can then work whilst my application is processed.

Or I understand I can apply to register as a British Citizen for the cost of the ceremony, only £80 - is this all? However it may take months to get my British passport and I can't start a new job until I have it? Perhaps somehow it works the same way and once I've submitted UKM and applied I can work?

Please help, it's bad enough having lost my job and having no money to now find I can't work..

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Re: Registering as a British Citizen by Descent UKM

Post by CR001 » Sat Jul 01, 2017 11:45 pm

Either way, unless you have either a biometric residence permit OR British citizenship, unlikely an employer will employ you due to the huge fines they could get.

You can apply for a BRP in person but it costs substantially more than the £237 as there is an in person charge of a few hundred ££'s. Fees (click).

UKM costs £80 but it can take a few months and you need to submit original documents.
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Scouse Mouse
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Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by Scouse Mouse » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:45 pm

I'm a US citizen born in the USA in 1962 to a British mother and American father (married). In 1965 I was brought back to the UK and lived her ever since, educated and worked here all my life.

I lost my job last week and so the nightmare began....

Reed recruitment virtually accused me of being an illegal immigrant and (correctly) pointed out my expired passport with its Indefinite Leave to Enter stamp was no longer proof of entitlement to work in the UK.

I now know I can apply to register for British Citizenship (UKM), or apply using form NTL for a BRP.

However my business failed in July 2015 unable to pay a large VAT bill and I declared bankruptcy. Due to this I was served with a Bankruptcy Restrictions Undertaking (3 years) for failure to maintain my financial affairs.

I don't know what to do! I'm sure my citizenship application will be rejected... Will a BRP application be as strict on the good character requirement?

Can someone please explain how after living here almost all my life, able to claim citizenship through my mum and granted indefinite right to reside and work here I can no longer apply for work?

More worries, my JSA application is based on the HRT which should succeed but how can they pay me to look for work when any jobs I apply for I cannot do??

I see there is a nationality status certificate available for £234 but I guess that would just end up me being told I am not a British National until I register?

I need help urgently and can't afford a legal advisor, can anyone offer some advice?

Mike

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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by CR001 » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:53 pm

A bankruptcy is likely to affect your ability to register as a British citizen. Not sure how strictly they apply this to UKM applications though.
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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by JAJ » Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:10 am

As far as I understand- the good character requirements for British citizenship are the same regardless of the type of application being made. However, the standard of character required is higher for citizenship applications than it would be for ILR. It would need an immigration solicitor to confirm but although bankruptcy may impact a citizenship application, it may not necessarily impact on immigration status for someone who already has ILR. (barring any potential issues regarding fraud). For more details see: https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/debt- ... ankruptcy/

However, for British citizenship, the requirements are more specific. Details in the Nationality Instructions, Chapter 18, Annex D: (pages 20-22)
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _D_v02.pdf

Based on the Nationality Instructions, the Home Office usually do not look at bankruptcy cases where discharge was more than 10 years ago. If less than this time has past they look at the circumstances of the bankruptcy, especially if the individual has been disqualified as a company director or the bankruptcy was related to non payment of taxes. And although it's not specifically discussed in the Nationality Instructions, guide UKM states that the application is likely to be refused if someone is an undischarged bankrupt.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... r_2015.pdf

A nationality status certificate application (Form NS) would be a waste of time/money- this is for those who haveautomatically acquired British citizenship and need a Home Office letter to prove it.

By chance- was the British mother born in Northern Ireland or were one of her parents born in Ireland or Northern Ireland? This would not lead to British citizenship but would generally lead to an option for Irish citizenship/passport.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction.

Scouse Mouse
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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by Scouse Mouse » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:45 am

That's interesting about claiming Irish Citizenship as my Great Grandparents were Irish. However they left Ireland before the turn of the 20th century and my grandfather was born in St Helens in 1901.
As the Foreign Births Register wasn't created until 1956 they wouldn't have been able to register him as an Irish Citizen would they? So that avenue seems closed to me?

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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by Richard W » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:08 pm

JAJ wrote:Based on the Nationality Instructions, the Home Office usually do not look at bankruptcy cases where discharge was more than 10 years ago. If less than this time has past they look at the circumstances of the bankruptcy, especially if the individual has been disqualified as a company director or the bankruptcy was related to non payment of taxes. And although it's not specifically discussed in the Nationality Instructions, guide UKM states that the application is likely to be refused if someone is an undischarged bankrupt.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... r_2015.pdf
The principle of demanding good character when people were originally denied British nationality as a result of an 'injustice' was felt by the Supreme Court to be incompatible with the European Declaration of Human Rights - the case of heroin dealer Eric Erron Johnson. The pricing of UKM and UKF applications is based on their both righting 'injustices'. Of course, the HO may simply consider this judgement, delivered on 19 October 2016, to simply be wrong. (I'm not sure the dealer's appeal against deportation will succeed/has succeeded - what of the argument that if the dealer had become British, he could be stripped of British nationality for involvement in serious, organised crime? The precedent of David Hicks comes to mind.)

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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by Obie » Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:18 pm

I don't agree that character requirements are applicable to UKM applications. The Supreme court has ruled that such requirements are incompatible with Article 8.

You need to apply to the Home Office on the basis that your inability to get citizenship was due to discrimination against women which prevented them from passing on citizenship through descent.
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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by JAJ » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:30 pm

Richard W wrote: The principle of demanding good character when people were originally denied British nationality as a result of an 'injustice' was felt by the Supreme Court to be incompatible with the European Declaration of Human Rights - the case of heroin dealer Eric Erron Johnson. The pricing of UKM and UKF applications is based on their both righting 'injustices'. Of course, the HO may simply consider this judgement, delivered on 19 October 2016, to simply be wrong. (I'm not sure the dealer's appeal against deportation will succeed/has succeeded
AS I understand this the court did two things- quash the deportation order (the case was actually about deportation rather than a citizenship application) and issued a "declaration of incompatibility" for the good character provisions as they relate to UKF applications. This does not change the law but provides an expedited route for it to be changed should the Secretary of State choose to do so. In the meantime, as I understand it, the law remains in force- but an immigration solicitor could advise in more detail.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declarati ... patibility

It is likely that if the question were to arise (and it probably will), there would be a similar declaration made as related to UKM applications. There is a precedent already- the good character requirement does not apply to the statelessness and semi-statelessness provisions of the Act (Schedule 2 and section 4B).

If it had been demonstrated that the applicant's father had acquired a domicile in Jamaica before he was born then he would likely have automatically been British. See the Home Office document on Legitimacy, notably page 7.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... timacy.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... micile.pdf

- what of the argument that if the dealer had become British, he could be stripped of British nationality for involvement in serious, organised crime? The precedent of David Hicks comes to mind.)
Two separate issues- and the bar for deprivation of British citizenship is substantially higher than the good character test for its acquisition.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction.

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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by Obie » Sat Jul 08, 2017 5:38 pm

UKF or UKM are irrelevant. The policy applies mutatis mutandis, and the declaration made by the court indicates that it's application extends beyond UKF, and covers UKM as well.

I appreciate that an act of parliament is not invalidated by the court, and that parliament has to make a remedial order, but the practise of the Home Office at present is they don't apply the good character test.

The case of Mr Hick's is different. Mr Hick was considered to have acted against the crown in a treasonous manner, and hence he was deprived of his citizenship. He was not made stateless as a result of that act, as he had Australian citizenship.

OP's case can be assimilated to Johnson that Hicks.
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Scouse Mouse
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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by Scouse Mouse » Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:28 pm

Obie wrote:UKF or UKM are irrelevant. The policy applies mutatis mutandis, and the declaration made by the court indicates that it's application extends beyond UKF, and covers UKM as well.

I appreciate that an act of parliament is not invalidated by the court, and that parliament has to make a remedial order, but the practise of the Home Office at present is they don't apply the good character test.

The case of Mr Hick's is different. Mr Hick was considered to have acted against the crown in a treasonous manner, and hence he was deprived of his citizenship. He was not made stateless as a result of that act, as he had Australian citizenship.

OP's case can be assimilated to Johnson that Hicks.
You are saying that at present the home office are not applying the good character test? Where are you getting this information from? Is this just surmised from the court ruling?
Sorry you guys have understanding of the immigration laws way beyond mine.....

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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by Scouse Mouse » Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:59 am

I have two options to obtain the documentation needed to satisfy the Employer I can legally work in the UK, a Biometric Residence Permit or British Citizenship. From the Home Office helpline I was led to understand once an application for British Citizenship has been received, the reference number issued will satisfy the right to work checks, the same as a Biometric application.

From what's been said above the home office are not applying the good character requirement to UKM or UKF Citizenship application?

Those requirements will still be applied (although to a lesser extent) to any Biometric application?

Should I take the chance of applying to register for British Citizenship through UKM, or safer to apply for a Biometric?

Would you advise I consult an immigration lawyer first?

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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by Obie » Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:50 pm

As a matter of law, Home Office cannot confirm to an employer that you do not have a right to work in the UK. If they did so, not only the Employer will be liable to claims against unfair dismissal, but the Home Office will be liable for breach of your convention right, and proceeding with a form of discrimination that has existed since your birth, where by children can obtain citizenship by descent from their father but not their mother.

You can also put the registration application. That is much cheaper than the ILR application.
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Scouse Mouse
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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by Scouse Mouse » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:18 pm

Thanks for your reply Obie. Why I wonder has the law not been challenged to give automatic citizenship by descent to children born to a British mother? Could it be challenged?

Can you help me understand how I have indefinite leave to live and work in the UK yet since 2014 I no longer have the right to work in the UK?

Or do I still have the right to work in the UK, just not able to be offered that work? Can I still work as self employed?

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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by JAJ » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:43 pm

Scouse Mouse wrote:I have two options to obtain the documentation needed to satisfy the Employer I can legally work in the UK, a Biometric Residence Permit or British Citizenship. From the Home Office helpline I was led to understand once an application for British Citizenship has been received, the reference number issued will satisfy the right to work checks, the same as a Biometric application.
Except that it's not clear that an application for citizenship will trigger a Certificate of Application that allows a right to work. It's very unusual for someone in the U.K. to apply for UKM. Most people with ILR or Right of Abode would be applying for naturalisation instead.
From what's been said above the home office are not applying the good character requirement to UKM or UKF Citizenship application?

Those requirements will still be applied (although to a lesser extent) to any Biometric application?

Should I take the chance of applying to register for British Citizenship through UKM, or safer to apply for a Biometric?

Would you advise I consult an immigration lawyer first?
Based on Obie's comments, the Home Office may not be applying the good character requirement to UKM/UKF cases but unless they update the published guidance, you likely find out by actually applying.

Consult an immigration solicitor? Maybe- but only if that solicitor has actually handled similar cases before. The one thing an immigration solicitor could clarify is whether your bankruptcy issues could impact your ILR status. As far as I understand it is unusual for bankruptcy to impact ILR (I cannot see any related questions on the NTL form) but it is something you would want to check before drawing attention to yourself.
Scouse Mouse wrote:Why I wonder has the law not been challenged to give automatic citizenship by descent to children born to a British mother? Could it be challenged?
Anything can be challenged if you have enough time and money- challenging it successfully is another question. Parliament decided not to automatically confer British citizenship, in part because some of those concerned might not wish to have British citizenship. Especially if they hold another citizenship from a country that restricts dual citizenship. I would be difficult to show that the arrangements already in place are unreasonable.
Can you help me understand how I have indefinite leave to live and work in the UK yet since 2014 I no longer have the right to work in the UK?

Or do I still have the right to work in the UK, just not able to be offered that work? Can I still work as self employed?
You have the right to work- what you are lacking is evidence of the right to work. Others may comment further, but you may well be able to work as self-employed provided a potential customer is not under similar requirements to verify your status before offering you a contract. Perhaps ask on the General U.K. Immigration forum- or discuss with an immigration solicitor?
Scouse Mouse wrote:That's interesting about claiming Irish Citizenship as my Great Grandparents were Irish. However they left Ireland before the turn of the 20th century and my grandfather was born in St Helens in 1901.
As the Foreign Births Register wasn't created until 1956 they wouldn't have been able to register him as an Irish Citizen would they? So that avenue seems closed to me?
Your grandfather was automatically Irish under the 1956 Act (first generation Irish by descent) and your mother would have been eligible for registration as an Irish citizen under the Foreign Births Register. If she had registered before 1 July 1986, her citizenship would have been retroactive to the earlier of her date of birth or the commencement of the 1956 Act- in that case, you would likely be eligible to register as an Irish citizen yourself. However, the number of persons in mainland Britain who actually claimed Irish citizenship by Foreign Birth Registration between 1956-1986 is, as far as I understand- quite low.
This is not intended to be legal or professional advice in any jurisdiction.

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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by Obie » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:47 pm

Even if the character requirement were lawful, simply being bankrupt will not disqualify you, all circumstances including your culpability will be considered, to decide if your conduct was reckless or deliberate. Furthermore it will not be taken into account if 10 years has elapsed.

However if they refuse it, which is unlikely, there is no doubt in my mind , that it will be unlawful for them to suggest that you have no right to work in the UK.
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Re: Help! ILR, Proof of right to work & Citizenship

Post by Scouse Mouse » Wed Jul 12, 2017 4:58 pm

Found out today from the helpline that an application for naturalisation (or registration) will only trigger a certificate of application for holders of EU passports. I was assured however that my application meant an employer using the employer checking service would receive verification of my right to work.....

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