Schengen visa remarks means

[Lymesix]

I have just received my Schengen visa from France and it states under remarks as "family member EU/EEA. Does this mean I can travel alone without my husband in the future?

Appreciate your any response. Thanks

[gokulatti]

No.

[Lymesix]

No.

Do you mind explaining? I have just rang Ryanair, asking them about my case that my husband won't be able to join me but will fly the next day to France. They said yes I should be able to travel alone. But I just want to get some more insights from here.

Thanks

[gokulatti]

The basis of that schengen visa to be issued free of charge is based on the fact of family member travelling together or joining the EU national. In your case, neither are you travelling together nor you are going to join him. If the situation was in fact reversed, your spouse goes to France first and then you, then you will fall under joining. Those are the rules and law, it doesn't matter what the airline says, they might be able to allow you to travel but when you reach schengen border control and the IO sees your visa first question is where is the EU spouse. Now you can gamble on saying he is coming to join you the next day, probably they will let you entry. But it's better if you know your risks in front.

[ibwe]

Technically, it is a gray area.

In practice, it is my opinion, that as long as it is to join the EU citizen who is connected with your visa, you can travel alone. Most immigration officers do not ask because they just assume if you are traveling alone, you must be joining your spouse. Ryanair probably came to the same conclusion as many other countless airlines.

However, having some form of proof like hotel accommodation with both names is more than enough to clear the immigration if they ask.

Hope this helps.

[Lymesix]

Technically, it is a gray area.

In practice, it is my opinion, that as long as it is to join the EU citizen who is connected with your visa, you can travel alone. Most immigration officers do not ask because they just assume if you are traveling alone, you must be joining your spouse. Ryanair probably came to the same conclusion as many other countless airlines.

However, having some form of proof like hotel accommodation with both names is more than enough to clear the immigration if they ask.

Hope this helps.

Thanks! I understand the EU movement laws and the need for me to travel with my husband, but in my unprecedented case I think I will just bring all my supporting documents to prove our marriage and financial status and take the risk.

[gokulatti]

Think of free movement in this way. your spouse has an employee fitness pass to the gym, only with this pass the gym door opens, If you travel together he/she can open it for you. If he is already inside he/she can come to the door and open it for you. If you go there alone and he comes after, you might have to wait or even sent back if its too long. A third country national does not have any right to free movement on their own. I am not saying you will be given entry or wont be. I am saying that you should know your risks and their consequences. Please do update us, how it goes so its helpful for others as well. I wish you Good luck!.

[ibwe]

Think of free movement in this way. your spouse has an employee fitness pass to the gym, only with this pass the gym door opens, If you travel together he/she can open it for you. If he is already inside he/she can come to the door and open it for you. If you go there alone and he comes after, you might have to wait or even sent back if its too long. A third country national does not have any right to free movement on their own. I am not saying you will be given entry or wont be. I am saying that you should know your risks and their consequences. Please do update us, how it goes so its helpful for others as well. I wish you Good luck!.

Agreed. I have done this more than three times and as recently as March 2017, and that is why I said it is a gray area. I have crossed alone into Shengchen borders, many times (usually by driving) and have not been asked a thing. They just took longer time than usual to verify passport and visa and let me drive into the Schengen country. Sometimes I just go shopping and drive back the same day - no one seems to give any issues rather than the usual security checks of the luggage and car. But I am always prepared with documentation, just in case.

Up to now I have not heard of anyone who was refused entry based on not traveling together or joining the EU citizen. However, I know of visa issuance payment (not free) in an event the applicant did not produce the proof of traveling together or joining the EU national.

Would love to hear from those who have experienced this.

[Wanderer]

I wouldn't take any chances with Ryanair, they are good at what they do, but sticklers for exactly the right documentation, for example they insist on a passport for travel between the UK and Ireland, where one isn't necessary.

[Lymesix]

Thank you all for your advices! It seems like there is nothing I can do anymore but just to try my luck. When I phoned Ryanair immigration office the lady verified from her supervisor rhsti should be allowed to board and she left notes on my boarding details. It would be down to the border control in Biarritz France if they would let me enter. I am bringing my marriage certificate, hubby's copy of flight tickets, payslips/bank statements/mortgage/signed letter from my husband (just in case they need more). I'm just wondering if there's any legal grounds I can use from the directive in case they challenge me? I would just want be knowledgeably prepared. Will be updating this topic after my journey.

Ta

[Lymesix]

Think of free movement in this way. your spouse has an employee fitness pass to the gym, only with this pass the gym door opens, If you travel together he/she can open it for you. If he is already inside he/she can come to the door and open it for you. If you go there alone and he comes after, you might have to wait or even sent back if its too long. A third country national does not have any right to free movement on their own. I am not saying you will be given entry or wont be. I am saying that you should know your risks and their consequences. Please do update us, how it goes so its helpful for others as well. I wish you Good luck!.

Agreed. I have done this more than three times and as recently as March 2017, and that is why I said it is a gray area. I have crossed alone into Shengchen borders, many times (usually by driving) and have not been asked a thing. They just took longer time than usual to verify passport and visa and let me drive into the Schengen country. Sometimes I just go shopping and drive back the same day - no one seems to give any issues rather than the usual security checks of the luggage and car. But I am always prepared with documentation, just in case.

Up to now I have not heard of anyone who was refused entry based on not traveling together or joining the EU citizen. However, I know of visa issuance payment (not free) in an event the applicant did not produce the proof of traveling together or joining the EU national.

Would love to hear from those who have experienced this.[/quote

I would just want to know if you've travelled via air with your schengen visa without your spouse before?

[ibwe]

Yes, I did.

Entered Germany and Italy (in 2015 and 2016 for a total of 3 times) directly from Beijing, China with no problems. At Malpensa Airport (Milan) I even used the EU citizens lane. No issues. All these times, my wife, an EU citizen came two days later. We had already booked the hotel and paid for it as well. No one asked for a proof but I was ready with documents.

If they ask for your purpose of the trip, say you are joining your spouse and, if they insist, show them the hotel bookings (only) with both of your names. I think you have ample proof that you are indeed going to join your spouse albeit after one day. In my opinion, almost all EU immigration officers in Schengen states hardly raise issues to EU family members as, in the end, it is assumed that they will become EU citizens too. Even if they press further, they may suggest that next time you make sure that your spouse is already inside the country. Refusing you entering,while technically possible, is highly unlikely.

[gokulatti]

we cannot take the personal experiences of people to rationalize what the IO did by given entry even though the EU national wasn't already there. On the contrary what about the examples of people who got their entry denied. Hypothetically, what happens if the EU national who is supposed to join the next day, couldn't make it due to unforeseen circumstances. Then, the IO's has clearly given entry to a TCN with no right of entry on the assumption that the EU national is to join the next day. I don't think that is the expected purpose of Border control.

[ibwe]

You see, I was under the impression that it is under the IO decision to ask or not to ask. Your post made me research further and ask a couple of people who had the same experience. Turns out EU has a Practical Handbook for Border Guards (SchengenHandbook). In it there is a special chapter for how to treat the ‘Members of the family of citizens of EU/EEA/CH countries’. Reading through it, one thing is unmistakably clear: the visa issuance. The only place where you have to prove your free visa as a family member of EU/EEA/CH is where you obtain the visa. Once you have the visa, the rest is as they say, history.

If there is someone who was refused entry as a family member of EU/EEA/CH, you should share your incident, if possible. It should also be understood that you can only be refused entry on grounds of public policy or public security [not if your spouse is joining you or not]. This refusal must be in written decision clearly explaining the reasoning.

This is based on the handbook: As long as you are a family member of citizens of EU/EEA/CH countries, then checks "should" be limited to verification of their identity and nationality/family ties. No questions concerning the purpose of travel, travel plans, employment certificate, pay slips, bank statements, accommodation, means of subsistence or other personal data should therefore be asked to them.

I put "should" in quotation because if they pose risk to EU/EEA/CH countries, further checks are required. It should be noted that these checks are primarily based on looking at the databases.

This explains why Immigration officers do not ask a lot when you are the family member of EU/EEA/CH citizens.

You can read the handbook and its update on these links below [the relevant sections are 3.1 for entry and 6.3, 6.8 for entry refusal grounds and written decision]:

http://register.consilium.europa.eu/doc ... 006%20INIT
https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/sites ... 894_en.pdf

[gokulatti]

I am completely aware of the schengen border guards handbook. You are forgetting the most crucial part of the wordings - family member of an "EU" national. For the purpose of immigration, a UK national who is not in an another member state is not considered to be an EU national. A UK national is only considered as a "EU" when he is in another member state. Therefore, A family member of a UK national is NOT a family member of a EU national unless the UK national is in fact in another member. Evident from the words of the directive Travelling or Joining. Of course this is the legal perspective.

[ibwe]

You've lost me a bit:

You are forgetting the most crucial part of the wordings - family member of an "EU" national. For the purpose of immigration, a UK national who is not in an another member state is not considered to be an EU national. A UK national is only considered as a "EU" when he is in another member state. Therefore, A family member of a UK national is NOT a family member of a EU national unless the UK national is in fact in another member.

I think this refers to a complete different scenario than that of OP. Unless I am mistaken, you are pinpointing to "Surinder Singh", where a British national's family member wants to go to UK under EU/EEA/CH free movement laws and in that case no visa is required. The same applies for Schengen countries.

[gokulatti]

No, It is not only for surinder singh, It is for the entire directive 2004/38. Directive is only applicable for european national moving to another member state.

From article 3 "1. This Directive shall apply to all Union citizens who move to or reside in a Member State other than that of which they are a national, and to their family members as defined in point 2 of Article 2
who accompany or join them."
From what the OP has said, when her spouse in not yet in another member state she ceases to be a family member of an EU national.

[ibwe]

I assume you mean the same thing but you are probably mixing two different things:
1. Family member of EU citizen (especially non-EU family members) and
2. their right of free movement within EU/EEA/CH.

One never cease to be a family member (barring divorce etc) but their right of free movement are dependent on being accompanied with or joining the EU/EEA citizen in another member state other than their own. This only applies to third country nationals whereas if they are both from EU/EEA their respective right of free movement are derived by the virtue of being citizens of member states.

[gokulatti]

I assume you mean the same thing but you are probably mixing two different things:
1. Family member of EU citizen (especially non-EU family members) and
2. their right of free movement within EU/EEA/CH.

One never cease to be a family member (barring divorce etc) but their right of free movement are dependent on being accompanied with or joining the EU/EEA citizen in another member state other than their own. This only applies to third country nationals whereas if they are both from EU/EEA their respective right of free movement are derived by the virtue of being citizens of member states.

Alright, I am not sure what you are trying to point out, I am not mixing anything up, with all due respect Sir/Madam, I feel that you might have to get down in detail to understand, what is free movement of EU citizens established in TFEU, What is derivative 2004/38, what is says about the free movement for TCN family members of a EU/Union/EEA (See P.S), what it repeals, about the rights of family members prescribed in the directive.

According to OP, the free movement of two European national spouse is out of scope. OP, had a question of travelling to a member state from outside schengen to france, without being accompanied or joining an appropriate EU national. It the directive that establishes the rights of the TCN family member while travelling with or joining an "EU national (please see P.S)" to another member state. The directive is the basis of OP as a TCN being issued a schengen visa under article 6 of the directive.

Ofcourse one never ceases to be a family member BUT one does cease to be a family member of a EU national (See P.S) for the purposes of directive 2004/38. If both are EU/EEA they have free movement rights from Article 18 of TFEU and not DERIVATIVE rights based off an appropriate EU Citizen as is the case for a TCN. I hope I was of help in some kind.

P.S. for the purposes of the directive, a EU citizen is a national of one of the member state who is moving to or residing in another member state. This is important because it the directive 2004/38 that establishes the rights of TCN family members and not TFEU as in the case of union nationals.

[ibwe]

I have understood clearly. Thanks for taking time to explain.

with all due respect Sir/Madam

It is Sir

[Lymesix]

I have understood clearly. Thanks for taking time to explain.

with all due respect Sir/Madam

It is Sir

Sir, thank you so much for your time answering my queries and I hope I would get your luck on Saturday.

[Lymesix]

I assume you mean the same thing but you are probably mixing two different things:
1. Family member of EU citizen (especially non-EU family members) and
2. their right of free movement within EU/EEA/CH.

One never cease to be a family member (barring divorce etc) but their right of free movement are dependent on being accompanied with or joining the EU/EEA citizen in another member state other than their own. This only applies to third country nationals whereas if they are both from EU/EEA their respective right of free movement are derived by the virtue of being citizens of member states.

Alright, I am not sure what you are trying to point out, I am not mixing anything up, with all due respect Sir/Madam, I feel that you might have to get down in detail to understand, what is free movement of EU citizens established in TFEU, What is derivative 2004/38, what is says about the free movement for TCN family members of a EU/Union/EEA (See P.S), what it repeals, about the rights of family members prescribed in the directive.

According to OP, the free movement of two European national spouse is out of scope. OP, had a question of travelling to a member state from outside schengen to france, without being accompanied or joining an appropriate EU national. It the directive that establishes the rights of the TCN family member while travelling with or joining an "EU national (please see P.S)" to another member state. The directive is the basis of OP as a TCN being issued a schengen visa under article 6 of the directive.

Ofcourse one never ceases to be a family member BUT one does cease to be a family member of a EU national (See P.S) for the purposes of directive 2004/38. If both are EU/EEA they have free movement rights from Article 18 of TFEU and not DERIVATIVE rights based off an appropriate EU Citizen as is the case for a TCN. I hope I was of help in some kind.

P.S. for the purposes of the directive, a EU citizen is a national of one of the member state who is moving to or residing in another member state. This is important because it the directive 2004/38 that establishes the rights of TCN family members and not TFEU as in the case of union nationals.

I appreciate your time explaining every aspect of my case. I will keep this topic updated to help others avoid my dilemma.

Kind regards
L

[noneeaprapp]

Hi Lymesix

Have you already traveled? I'm keen to hear your experience because my partner is no longer able to travel with me next week and I am in between two minds.

Thanks!

Think of free movement in this way. your spouse has an employee fitness pass to the gym, only with this pass the gym door opens, If you travel together he/she can open it for you. If he is already inside he/she can come to the door and open it for you. If you go there alone and he comes after, you might have to wait or even sent back if its too long. A third country national does not have any right to free movement on their own. I am not saying you will be given entry or wont be. I am saying that you should know your risks and their consequences. Please do update us, how it goes so its helpful for others as well. I wish you Good luck!.

Agreed. I have done this more than three times and as recently as March 2017, and that is why I said it is a gray area. I have crossed alone into Shengchen borders, many times (usually by driving) and have not been asked a thing. They just took longer time than usual to verify passport and visa and let me drive into the Schengen country. Sometimes I just go shopping and drive back the same day - no one seems to give any issues rather than the usual security checks of the luggage and car. But I am always prepared with documentation, just in case.

Up to now I have not heard of anyone who was refused entry based on not traveling together or joining the EU citizen. However, I know of visa issuance payment (not free) in an event the applicant did not produce the proof of traveling together or joining the EU national.

Would love to hear from those who have experienced this.[/quote

I would just want to know if you've travelled via air with your schengen visa without your spouse before?

[noneeaprapp]

Just wanted to give an update: I had to travel without my eu partner last weekend and I've had no problems at the passport control.