Probationary Citizenship

[Kazza]

Anyone know when this 'probationary citizenship' for Tier 1 and Tier 2 people comes into effect?

Karen

[vinny]

I believe that it's under consultation.

[dnicky]

The green paper 'The path to Citizenship' proposed by Government states the timeline to submit a draft bill for the changes in parliament by end of November 2008. At the moment it's anyone guess as to when would the new rules come into effect, but I would be surprised if they are implemented before April 2009.

You can find the green paper here,
http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/siteco ... tizenship/

[JAJ]

Probably 2009, but as "probationary citizenship" is simply an immigration status rather than a form of citizenship, it would be highly irresponsible for the Government to persist with using this term.

Why? Because if they use the word "citizenship" then they are going to have problems returning deportees to countries that do not accept dual citizenship. These countries may start revoking the citizenship of their nationals on the basis of "probationary citizenship" in the U.K. which leaves such persons stateless and not returnable to their home countries.

[Christophe]

Probably 2009, but as "probationary citizenship" is simply an immigration status rather than a form of citizenship, it would be highly irresponsible for the Government to persist with using this term.

Why? Because if they use the word "citizenship" then they are going to have problems returning deportees to countries that do not accept dual citizenship. These countries may start revoking the citizenship of their nationals on the basis of "probationary citizenship" in the U.K. which leaves such persons stateless and not returnable to their home countries.

I agree, the use of this term would be asking for trouble.

It is also inherently illogical; the term "probationary citizenship" implies that the person has been granted citizenship but that it may nevertheless be taken away - as with "probationary employment". However, under the proposals in the green paper, the person with "probationary citizenship" doesn't have citizenship or anything like it.

Indeed, "probationary citizenship", as suggested in the green paper, would be, in some cases, a stage before indefinite leave to remain (or permanent residence, or whatever it may be called), and certainly a "lesser" status. This too seems somehow illogical on the basis of the nomenclature, although I suppose the people who devised the terms were thinking of the adjectives (probationary vs indefinite/permanent) rather than the nouns (citizenship vs leave to remain/residence).

I have to say (although it's probably not the right thread to say it in) that a lot of the proposals look to me to be a bit of a mess, and they certainly wouldn't (as far as I can see) achieve an aim of making the overall process leading to permanent residence or citizenship any simpler or more transparent.

[SYH]

Probably 2009, but as "probationary citizenship" is simply an immigration status rather than a form of citizenship, it would be highly irresponsible for the Government to persist with using this term.

Why? Because if they use the word "citizenship" then they are going to have problems returning deportees to countries that do not accept dual citizenship. These countries may start revoking the citizenship of their nationals on the basis of "probationary citizenship" in the U.K. which leaves such persons stateless and not returnable to their home countries.

Ditto, they probably meant, Probationary period before Citizenship eligibility but it is quite long and they shortened it to a point that it is inaccurate.
They need to rethink the terminology for this one

[Fairtrade]

Isn't "Probation" something handed to criminals for commiting a crime???

[SYH]

Isn't "Probation" something handed to criminals for commiting a crime???

NO, when you start a job. You have a probabation period or what is known as a trial period. No need to take the most negative inferene of probation

[Christophe]

Isn't "Probation" something handed to criminals for commiting a crime???

I think that refers to being "out [of prison] on probation" - in other words, the person is released but if it doesn't work out (i.e. if the person re-offends) then he or she will be imprisoned again.

"Probation" means "the subjecting of someone to a period of testing and trial to ascertain fitness". Ultimately it comes from the Latin verb probare, which meant "to test" or "to approve".

In ordinary usage, "probation" usually implies, too, that the person has already been granted what he or she is being tested for - so a prisoner "on probation" is free in the sense that he or she has been released from prison; a person on a probationary period of employment is already employed in the job. This leads to one my objections (not my only objection) to the term "probationary citizenship" - the person with "probationary citizenship" hasn't already been granted citizenship. The term is, in my view, therefore, potentially misleading, and it seems to me to display lack of clarity of thought on the part of the people who devised it...

[global gypsy]

Well, the word 'probationary' also means: 'under terms not final or fully worked out or agreed upon'

So the HO could get away with use of this term after all.

[thsths]

Well, the word 'probationary' also means: 'under terms not final or fully worked out or agreed upon'

So the HO could get away with use of this term after all.

Sorry to disagree, but that would imply some kind of "temporary citizenship". Now under international law citizenship is never temporary, it is always granted fully and without further preconditions. So the only logical conclusion is that it is not citizenship. It does not matter which word you stick in front of it, calling it any kind of citizenship is incorrect and confusing.

Tom

[global gypsy]

It does not matter which word you stick in front of it, calling it any kind of citizenship is incorrect and confusing.

Well, 'honorary citizenship' doesn't confer actual citizenship on someone.

My point was that the use of the term 'probationary citizeship' to mean 'citizenship under terms not final or fully worked out or agreed upon' is valid in an English language meaning sense. The HO could argue their case in a court of law, however distasteful you and I may find the phrase to be.

[Christophe]

Well, the word 'probationary' also means: 'under terms not final or fully worked out or agreed upon'

So the HO could get away with use of this term after all.

But my point was really that probationary citizens would not be citizens at all. And rather than being not final or fully worked out or agreed upon, the "terms" would, in fact, be all of those things - the terms would be the requirements for citizenship, which the "probationary citizen" would need to fulfil before he or she could become a citizen.

But no matter the semantics, I think we agree that the nomenclature would be inadvisable. (I also think that the concept is inadvisable, since it adds yet another layer of complexity in the path from immigrant to citizen, but that's a different point altogether.)

[Fairtrade]

They call it Probation Citizenship and then you will have to do Community service........ Don't criminals do comunity service for something they have done wrong. Like cleaning the streets, picking up rubbish etc..

[Emma84]

They call it Probation Citizenship and then you will have to do Community service........ Don't criminals do comunity service for something they have done wrong. Like cleaning the streets, picking up rubbish etc..

Something like it. From what the consultation paper said, they'd expect us to volunteer with a recognised charity or some such, but yeah it is a similar kind of thing.

A lot of my friends actually view 'probationary citizenship' this way, it is the first thing that is called to mind when they hear the term. One of them actually said to me, 'The Home Office is making up new defenitions for probation, criminals are on probation because they did do something wrong, migrants will be on probation because they might do something wrong, or at least not live up to expectations.' I tend to agree with her on this, though not everyone may.

Point is, yes it is an inadvisable use of the term.[/i]