Doubts of sham marriage on dependent spouse

[meena01]

Hello everyone

I would like to share my issue with you and kindly ask for your help and advice about an issue.
Sorry if my message is too long, I will try to be as clear as possible. Thanks for reading


So I am a French citizen. I got married in March 2013 to an Indian citizen who was living in the UK on student visa. After our marriage, my husband switched to the EEA2 spouse visa.
5 years will be completed in april 2018 and he would then be able to apply for his indefinite residency card. We both live in the UK since our marriage. We have a 3 yo daughter who was born in France (EU citizen).

Yet, my problem is that since we are married, I have doubts about his intentions. A lot of things make me think that he got married only to get his papers to stay here. Despite all my doubts, I always gave a chance and priority to our marriage because we have a daughter that we both love.

Overview of my life since my marriage:
- he was quite nice with me until our daughter's birth for a reason that is unknown to me.
- he does not let me visit my parents in France, tells me he needs my presence in the UK as it is a requirement to get his card.... which is why I can go only from 1 to 2 times in a year for 10 days.
- he insults my family members, he keeps talking about getting uk passport all the time. No plans for the 'after papers'.. And I am now fed up. I feel pressurized, used, and mentally abused.
- we have huge differences concerning the education we want to give to our daughter
- he loses his mind often; at those times he yells at me, threatens to divorce me, tells me that 'once I get my passport you will see'..
- during a fight (reason: he could not find the tablet and wanted to give it to our daughter) he got angry at me, and he pushed me in the room to force me to look for it // physical abuse)

My marriage is now basically resumed to mental abuse - it is nothing less than torture to hear such words about your loved ones; not being able to say or do something because of being alone in a country away from family; because of our daughter; to stay calm because of being scared of him turning even more crazy; to feel that I am just being used so that he gets his passport.

---

-What are my rights now?
My main concern is my daughter. I want to keep her with me at any cost.
Which law applies here? (EU or UK law?) Considering the situation and his unreasonable behavior, is there any chance that I get allowed to relocate in France with my daughter?

-If once he gets his wanted papers (indefinite) and then he gives me divorce - what would happen? Would he legally have the right to remain in the UK despite this fraud? Any chance that the home office consider that this was a sham marriage? How can I protect myself - is it useful to contact the home office now and inform them about these doubts?

-He now insists that I must find a job as he needs to apply for a UK residency card for myself and my daughter (for his papers again). Since I doubt him, should I still apply for this card? Is that card really needed?

-About money also:
Whenever I worked, my salaries went into our joint account since he said it is a requirement to apply for his indefinite card... I am afraid if divorce happens he would take all the money into his account.
If I inform the home office about an eventual separation now, he might also use all our money to apply for another visa to remain in the Uk (which is the aim of his life.)

---

Until now I sacrificed my happiness for our daughter but this is too much now. I have now decided to do something before it is too late since he might just leave me after he gets his card.
I kindly request your help and advice regarding this issue. Thanks for reading such a long post, and thanks in advance for any advice.

[Wanderer]

I think if you separate and move back to France with your daughter he will have no valid leave to remain in EU.

Wait for others though, I'm not 100% confident I'm correct.

[Zaynab09]

If he does not have ILR then inform the Home Office and Police ASAP.
You need to be the best for your daughter!
As for the money is there anyway you could maybe create an account for your daughter and transfer some money in their that way he would not be able to accuse you.
To apply for ILR he would need to prove your relationship is genuine and you meet all requirements.

[New on forum]

Hello everyone

I would like to share my issue with you and kindly ask for your help and advice about an issue.
Sorry if my message is too long, I will try to be as clear as possible. Thanks for reading


So I am a French citizen. I got married in March 2013 to an Indian citizen who was living in the UK on student visa. After our marriage, my husband switched to the EEA2 spouse visa.
5 years will be completed in april 2018 and he would then be able to apply for his indefinite residency card. We both live in the UK since our marriage. We have a 3 yo daughter who was born in France (EU citizen).

Yet, my problem is that since we are married, I have doubts about his intentions. A lot of things make me think that he got married only to get his papers to stay here. Despite all my doubts, I always gave a chance and priority to our marriage because we have a daughter that we both love.

Overview of my life since my marriage:
- he was quite nice with me until our daughter's birth for a reason that is unknown to me.
- he does not let me visit my parents in France, tells me he needs my presence in the UK as it is a requirement to get his card.... which is why I can go only from 1 to 2 times in a year for 10 days.
- he insults my family members, he keeps talking about getting uk passport all the time. No plans for the 'after papers'.. And I am now fed up. I feel pressurized, used, and mentally abused.
- we have huge differences concerning the education we want to give to our daughter
- he loses his mind often; at those times he yells at me, threatens to divorce me, tells me that 'once I get my passport you will see'..
- during a fight (reason: he could not find the tablet and wanted to give it to our daughter) he got angry at me, and he pushed me in the room to force me to look for it // physical abuse)

My marriage is now basically resumed to mental abuse - it is nothing less than torture to hear such words about your loved ones; not being able to say or do something because of being alone in a country away from family; because of our daughter; to stay calm because of being scared of him turning even more crazy; to feel that I am just being used so that he gets his passport.

---

-What are my rights now?
My main concern is my daughter. I want to keep her with me at any cost.
Which law applies here? (EU or UK law?) Considering the situation and his unreasonable behavior, is there any chance that I get allowed to relocate in France with my daughter?

-If once he gets his wanted papers (indefinite) and then he gives me divorce - what would happen? Would he legally have the right to remain in the UK despite this fraud? Any chance that the home office consider that this was a sham marriage? How can I protect myself - is it useful to contact the home office now and inform them about these doubts?

-He now insists that I must find a job as he needs to apply for a UK residency card for myself and my daughter (for his papers again). Since I doubt him, should I still apply for this card? Is that card really needed?

-About money also:
Whenever I worked, my salaries went into our joint account since he said it is a requirement to apply for his indefinite card... I am afraid if divorce happens he would take all the money into his account.
If I inform the home office about an eventual separation now, he might also use all our money to apply for another visa to remain in the Uk (which is the aim of his life.)

---

Until now I sacrificed my happiness for our daughter but this is too much now. I have now decided to do something before it is too late since he might just leave me after he gets his card.
I kindly request your help and advice regarding this issue. Thanks for reading such a long post, and thanks in advance for any advice.

I would say be very carefully in what you do.
Don’t forget that you have a daughter and she need her father.
It’s possible that he maybe only feeling insecure with immigration stuff and it’s not un common.
If he expects you to help or facilitate his stay that doesn’t mean that he is dishonest and marriage is sham.
Even if he is not honest and intends to leave you after PR I would say then let him be the guilty one.
Don’t just assume things as there is a child involved and if he has little bit of humanity he will not abandon his daughter.

[Obie]

I think if you separate and move back to France with your daughter he will have no valid leave to remain in EU.

Wait for others though, I'm not 100% confident I'm correct.

Is this really an advise that could be in OP's child's best interest.

OP will essentially be committing a criminal offense as she would essentially have kidnapped the child from a person who also has parental rights and running with her outside the jurisdictions.


I can see why OP is anxious, with every immigrants being viewed as criminal with a suspicious mind, I can see why OP is concerned.

I dont see how this guy will stay with you and have a child together if he did not care.

You need to work on security issues.

You are worthy of being loved and be in a relationship with that is why he is with you and not because of residence.

[secret.simon]

I am a French citizen. I got married in March 2013 to an Indian citizen who was living in the UK on student visa

As he is married to an EEA citizen (you), your husband acquires rights under EU laws automatically. Provided that either you have exercised treaty rights for any five continuous years either before or during the marriage, he will automatically acquire PR under EU law on your fifth wedding anniversary, even if you are separated (but not divorced).

He can then apply for British citizenship after one year of holding PR (i.e. on the sixth anniversary of your wedding).

If once he gets his wanted papers (indefinite) and then he gives me divorce - what would happen? Would he legally have the right to remain in the UK despite this fraud? Any chance that the home office consider that this was a sham marriage? How can I protect myself - is it useful to contact the home office now and inform them about these doubts?

As this comes under EU law, the Home Office has much less power to look into the circumstances of the marriage than had you been a UK citizen. Under EU law, even if you lived separately after marriage and divorced after three years of marriage, your husband would have still acquired the right to reside under EU law.

Conversely, that is why I suspect that your husband is interested in maintaining a relationship with you regardless of immigration status. Had he wanted to merely acquire immigration rights, he would have acquired rights even if he divorced you two years ago. As he is still around, I suspect he is invested in maintaining some semblance of a relationship with you.

Moving on from the topic of his immigration status, I am fairly certain that his behaviour towards you would be classified as psychological and emotional domestic abuse at the very least. I suggest that you contact your local branch of Citizens' Advice Bureau or a charity specialising in domestic abuse cases who can guide you on next steps, as we, being an immigration forum, do not necessarily have expertise in that field. Some charities to contact are Relate, Living without abuse and Women's Aid.

[NatCam]

Hi Meena,
I think you should report him. Your child will never be happy if you are not happy. This kind of relationships never get better. You have the right to choose where to live. If he loves you and your daughter he will come to France with you. I doubt if he will though.
Are you dependent on him financially?
As you have a child together, the Home Office will not consider your marriage a marriage of convenience, or a sham marriage.

[New on forum]

[quote=NatCam post_id=1579335 time=1514950542 user_id=182786]
Hi Meena,
I think you should report him. Your child will never be happy if you are not happy. This kind of relationships never get better. You have the right to choose where to live. If he loves you and your daughter he will come to France with you. I doubt if he will though.
Are you dependent on him financially?
As you have a child together, the Home Office will not consider your marriage a marriage of convenience, or a sham marriage.
Report for what ?
Abduct a child?
If you have some bad personal experience doesn’t mean that is the case with every family.

[NatCam]

@New on forum
Abuse, of course. You are an honest man, it doesn't mean that every man is honest.

[Osafidence]

Hi Meena,
I think you should report him. Your child will never be happy if you are not happy. This kind of relationships never get better. You have the right to choose where to live. If he loves you and your daughter he will come to France with you. I doubt if he will though.
Are you dependent on him financially?
As you have a child together, the Home Office will not consider your marriage a marriage of convenience, or a sham marriage.

My friend please encourage OP to pray for a firm marriage and there are times we doubt our relationships but not to be advice negatively. Please learn to use wisdom to advice people.....you might hear from OP husband and be devastated. The husband might not want he to regularly visit france because in-laws might to commanding and to involve in their personal life. They have a child together remember....... If there's anyway you can help someone just do let him face the karma...... if OP l frustrate her husband at this moment....the Husband will still move on.....its not death sentence its just ordinary paper......remember the child will grow up and find out what mummy did to daddy..... Natcam you will not be there to take judgement.. Be wise and think before you take judgement

[meena01]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for taking the time to read me and giving your thoughts about this matter. Sorry for replying that late - had some technical issues...


@Wanderer:
I wish I could do this just to make him realise and understand if he really wants us in his life, but I won't go this way since it would be child abduction...


@Zaynab09
He does not want me to open an account for our daughter, I have tried long before just to have some money for myself in case.
Still in doubt if I should inform the Home Office - if he hears about it it will definitely be divorce since I know how angry he can get for silly things and threat me for divorce. Yet divorce is maybe not what I personally hope for... Until now just for my daughter's sake, I am still with him.


@New on forum:
He may have insecurities, that's not a reason to emotionally abuse your spouse. I have always facilitated all procedures regarding his paper work, fulfilled all home office requirements without questioning.. everything. I have always been nice and supportive and never got anything in return- forget about being thankful, not even love.
If I am posting here, it is because I have serious doubts about his intentions. I think a woman can feel whether or not a man has some interest in her. I've never assumed things - if I suspect SHAM, this is simply because he literally threatened to divorce me as soon as he gets his passport. It's not baseless suspicion.
YET as I said, I always stayed with him despite my doubts, just for our daughter.
Also..... you said 'if he has a little bit of humanity he won't abandon your daughter'... I have serious doubts on humanity. I have seen that just few days ago, the guy got his passport after 10 years of marriage and right after he divorced wife and left their 2 kids.


@Obie:
'I dont see how this guy will stay with you and have a child together if he did not care.'
Thats my problem, I cant determine if he cares or not. That child was somehow unwanted from his side. And we did not have financial problems or other reasons... Also he stays with me, yes, but is it for papers only? cause I've never received some sort of care or love from him weirdly.


@secret.simon:
"Under EU law, even if you lived separately after marriage and divorced after three years of marriage, your husband would have still acquired the right to reside under EU law.
Had he wanted to merely acquire immigration rights, he would have acquired rights even if he divorced you two years ago. "

Thank you for clarifying this question about EU law. I wonder if he is aware of this, seems like he isn't.
But on this basis, I think it is more reasonable to stay with him, still give him a chance and see how things go since in any case he will get what he wants (his passport).

ALso thanks for the links, I was considering this option of getting some sort of support.. Will try it.


@Natcam:
Reporting him would mean ending the relationship; Im not sure if thats what I want... despite being unhappy I have to think about my daughter..
As for coming to live in France, I asked him several times - before getting married that was his promise and what we decided together - after our marriage he categorically refused to go to France. Unfortunately I have no power in this relationship! He is extremely stubborn.


@Osafidence:
"you might hear from OP husband and be devastated. The husband might not want he to regularly visit france because in-laws might to commanding and to involve in their personal life."

There is nothing to be devastated for. I support him, facilitated everything related to his papers without questioning, worked in a time I wanted to just focus and care for our daughter at home, just to fulfill his home office requirements, I stayed in the UK all the time, could not visit my family in France.
And about in-laws, I would like to re tell again that they have always been extremely nice to him, I've told them how he is, and they barely see him since he does not keep any contact nor he visits them! If they are here, everything happens just like a happy family and as soon as they leave he starts saying bad things about them! so PLEASE NO its really not a matter of commanding inlaws that involve in his personal life, hell NO. its HIS MIND. THey avoid asking him questions and try to be as nice as they could, I think you have an idea of how indian culture is, how much love and respect they try to give their daughter's husband just to keep her happily married.
SOrry I got really offended from what you said above, cause it is really not the case here....

".remember the child will grow up and find out what mummy did to daddy"
excuse me but if we divorce one day, it would definitely be the other way round 'what daddy did to mummy"...... Read and consider the whole situation as explained above, you will perhaps understand.

[meena01]

Hello,

I need your help

Things didn't work out, I will file divorce on the grounds of unreasonable behaviour ASAP. So I am going to inform the HO about the end of our relationship now without delay.

I have to write a letter and attach the public statement right?
https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... nsent-form

-Is there any template for the letter itself?
-Can I modify the public statement? it is written :
"I, (your name entered here), confirm that my relationship with (insert name of estranged spouse partner) no longer subsists, that I do not live with them and that I do not intend to live with them as my spouse or partner in the future."
==> I still live with him in the same house although not as husband wife (eating, sleeping separately, not talking) because I have no other choice (no where else to go in England, + advised to stay in the home otherwise weakens my position for the divorce case...)
Shall/Can I modify the statement and remove "I do not live with them"?


Thanks.....

[thsths]

Conversely, that is why I suspect that your husband is interested in maintaining a relationship with you regardless of immigration status. Had he wanted to merely acquire immigration rights, he would have acquired rights even if he divorced you two years ago. As he is still around, I suspect he is invested in maintaining some semblance of a relationship with you.

Moving on from the topic of his immigration status, I am fairly certain that his behaviour towards you would be classified as psychological and emotional domestic abuse at the very least.

I completely agree. Immigration is just a front here, the real problems are deeper. Dealing with an abusive relationship is not easy, and you should carefully consider your options. You need to look after your daughter and yourself. The key question is whether he is part of your future or not, and only you can decide that.

[meena01]

@thsth
Immigration has been the center of our relationship since the start. Let me explain why:

-He never wanted to have a child with me before getting his passport (these are his own words).
-On our daughter's birth, he said that now he is "strong and will get his passport through his daughter".
-He never wanted to travel with me, to give me time, or even to have a civil conversation with me.
-I always ignored it, tried to compromise only for my daughter so that she has both mum and dad. I have been naive; I waited, thought its just doubts, felt weak and alone to do anything. Then he just lost patience for the last 2-3 years and literally told me at multiple occasions that he "will divorce as soon as he gets his passport".
-No doubts left for me, he said it himself today that he has "no interest in me and is registering on matrimonial websites to search someone else to get married with".
-He also told me to "kill myself, drink bleach, suicide"; that "if we were in his home country, we (my family and me) would have been killed for asking divorce"; that he "will kill my father and brother" if I relocate to France.
-He encourages his brother (illegally staying in Europe) to do a sham marriage with an EEA citizen, and said this is the easiest way to settle in the UK; he supports him emotionally and financially.
-Also, no one knows him better than I, he was not aware that he can get his passport even if he divorced me 2 years ago. I can tell, even if he knew, the UK passport being the center of his life, he would never bring complications to the process by divorcing before having it in his hand.


I know it took me LONG to realise this, that I remained inactive for so long, I ve been stupidly waiting.. but this is a fact; he never had any interest in me, in our relationship. This is nothing else than a marriage for papers. His only aim was and is to get his UK citizenship. If this is not a marriage to get papers, then please tell me what is a sham marriage.

I am going to explain the whole situation to the HO anyway, and report all the criminal offences to the police (death threats). I hope permanent relocation will be approved very soon since I feel extremely unsafe living with him...

[secret.simon]

If this is not a marriage to get papers, then please tell me what is a sham marriage.

EU law is extremely broad when it comes to giving rights to EEA citizens and their family members and very chary of any attempt to restrict EU rights.

Therefore, although "marriages of conveniences" (the EU equivalent of sham marriage) do not confer rights, the definition of "marriage of convenience" is extremely narrow.

It requires for instance that the sole purpose of the marriage be to get around the immigration restrictions. If it is not the sole purpose, for instance, he married you to reside in the UK, but also for some other purpose (family pressure, say, or a genuine wish by either party to be married to the other person), then it is not a marriage of convenience but a genuine marriage.

Also, somebody on these forums had opined that a marriage of convenience can only occur if both sides of the marriage treated it as such. If either one side treated it as a genuine marriage (you in this case), then it was a genuine marriage. A marriage of convenience, in this opinion, requires fraud on both sides, not just one.

Have a read of the EU Commission Staff Working Document on Marriages of Convenience. It will give you an idea of how marriage of convenience is defined in EU law and possible next steps.

[meena01]

@secret.simon

Thanks for the clarification, until now I kept believing that this was called a sham marriage.
I have done some research and found something that perhaps describes my situation a bit better:
http://www.stopukmarriagefraud.com/

I am very surprised that marriage fraud is not considered as a criminal offence in the UK... I don't know how we call it in the UK, but in France, when a French spouse is deceived by the foreign spouse who got married for the purpose of getting citizenship, it is called "mariage gris" , and is definitely considered as a criminal offence.
It is different from "mariage blanc" where both parties are complicit in the fraud. (so "mariage blanc" is equal to the UK's "sham marriage")

I wonder: he is on EEA permit/has permission to stay in the UK for a limited time as the dependent spouse of an EEA citizen (myself); + we got married in France.
--> logically EU law applies here isn't it?
Since the Home Office won't consider this as a criminal offence, it might be useful to report the marriage fraud in France?



And apart from that, do you know if the Home Office considers criminal offences in immigration matters?
He gave me death threats and I have reported this to the police (got a crime ref number). Despite these criminal offences, would he be allowed by the Home Office to legally stay in the UK ?



Thanks

[secret.simon]

"mariage blanc" is equal to the UK's "sham marriage")

The definition I provided above are the EU's definition, not the UK's definitions. The UK has a tougher definition applicable for spouses of British citizens. But as you are an EEA citizen, your husband and you are covered by the EU's definition of "marriage of convenience". You are, in a matter of speaking, a class apart.

Despite these criminal offences, would he be allowed by the Home Office to legally tay in the UK ?

As I mentioned above, because he and you are covered by EU law, he has rights that the Home Office can't touch. Were he the spouse of a British citizen, his visa could be curtailed. But as the spouse of an EEA Citizen living in the UK, he has the right to reside in the UK, even separated from you.

The only way you can affect his rights is if you move to France and advise the Home Office that you have ceased to reside in the UK. Even then, I am not sure his right to reside in the UK would cease.

it might be useful to report the marriage fraud in France?

I am not conversant with French law, but given the range of abuse you have said you suffered, you should explore that option.

Again, as the father of an EEA citizen (your daughter), he also has some inalienable rights under EU law. So, even if he were to be found guilty of crimes in either the UK or France, it is possible that he cannot be deported.

-He encourages his brother (illegally staying in Europe) to do a sham marriage with an EEA citizen, and said this is the easiest way to settle in the UK;

You can now see why he would recommend to his brother to marry an EEA citizen in the UK and not a British citizen.

[broli]

Its sad that many people here are telling you to ignore this massive abuse and threats . This is not acceptable!

When i read this i feel this person is genuine unlike some other people who came on the forum merely seeking revenge.

I am child of domestic abusive parent staying there will destroy ur heath and will not save your marriage , it will not help your. (If spouse was abusive because he's dependent it will only get worse) dont believe by life-coaches in the forum (your husband could be one the guys here )

I am myself was a victim of emotional abusive eu spouse , until i went to seek support and then told my spouse i was done and if she was more abusive i will pack my stuff and go back to my country or elsewhere (emotional abuse is insane ! you have to be victim to know what it really feels like)

Take whatever decision you want , you are clearly a good person! You could also leave force him to follow you to France (so that you can be with both your husband or you your loved one he will have no choice ), anyone who love his family would do that .


If you want to give another chance it should be up to you alone if you can take more abuse or if you think he could improve.

Info about visas https://www.gov.uk/browse/visas-immigration

[meena01]

@Broli
Thanks for your understanding, it feels good to get some kind of mental support..
I do realise that this is only going to get worse. He clearly told me that he has no interest in me and will get married again sooo.... I filed divorce now. Its a very difficult decision and still have doubts, if this is the right decision or not, if this is in my daughter's best interest or not.
But I think as you suggested (and to avoid any regrets in future) I will ask him one last time if he is willing to follow me to France (if I do that it would be ONLY for our daughter, I dont expect anything from him...)


@secret.simon
I have read the link you sent before(EU Commission Staff Working Document on Marriages of Convenience. So we both are covered by EU law. However, according to that document, (I have pasted the paragraph below), this marriage would indeed be considered as a marriage of convenience. I believe the HO is aware of such texts? Do they take them into consideration? If they are in front of a 'marriage of convenience' (according to EU law), they still won't take any steps?


Section 2.2 || || Different types of genuine marriages and marriages of convenience

Marriage by deception ||
|| A marriage by deception arises when the EU spouse is deceived by the non-EU spouse to genuinely believe that the couple will lead a genuine and lasting marital life. Such marriage is a marriage of convenience and should be tackled accordingly, with due regard to the innocence of the EU spouse. In such marriages, the EU citizen is not a willing accomplice, but a victim guilty only of good faith. Such marriages typically, but not necessarily, follow a short relationship on the internet, or after the EU citizen has met the non-EU spouse in a foreign country on holidays. They may involve violence and threatening behaviour, particularly if the EU spouse has started to have concerns and is unwilling to participate in the immigration process.