Probationary citizenship

purplepple · Post by **purplepple** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:25 pm

If the green paper pushes through, after 5 years of temporary residence, do you have to extend your current visa status for 1 more year? Or is it another visa type and you only need to pass the Life in the UK test and meet the English requirement to become a probationary citizen?

sunny9675 · Post by **sunny9675** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 7:46 pm

this is a journey which is moving towards infinity and we all those on work permits / tier -1 /tier -2

should forget and just pay taxes and stay

purplepple · Post by **purplepple** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:36 am

I understand your resentments but I would like to know if I don't have to apply for an FLR to become a proby citizen. All I have to do is pass the Life in the UK test after 5 years under WP.

Christophe · Post by **Christophe** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:36 am

Not sure exactly what you mean, but I don't think anyone knows the details at this early stage. However, I feel certain that you would have to "apply" - as in filling out an application form and providing the necessary evidence that you were eligible (as as as, no doubt, paying a fairly hefty fee). However, I imagine that people who fulfil the criteria, whatever they turn out to be, will in almost all cases be given the new status.

tobiashomer · Post by **tobiashomer** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:10 am

Does anyone have a guesstimate of when all this will take effect? I got ILR in Jan of this year and was looking forward to applying for citizenship on that date in 2009... It is hard to imagine what they will do with existing ILR-holders, as ILR is supposed to take even longer than citizenship under the new system, which must have been designed by a committee of dolts.

any guesses?

Post by **Administrator** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 1:11 pm

.

So far it's in the proposal stages, and it should go before the Parliament sometime in November. We did a summary of what we knew about it when the announcement was made:

New rules for British citizenship announced
21 February 2008

the Admin

tobiashomer · Post by **tobiashomer** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:05 pm

Thanks Admin, I remember that helpful summary. What I was fishing for is to see if someone has an idea what the likely implentation schedule would be: IF the legislation is ready in November and passes into law straightaway, is it likely (based on anyone's past experience of similar cases) to take effect (1) right away, (2) in 2-3 months, or (3) (Mr Byrne's favourite) retrospectively? If it is (3) and even those who already sweated through all the changes and moving goalposts to get ILR will have to go through more "probationary" mickeymouse rather than for once getting what one was promised when one was promised it, I will (briefly) contemplate throwing myself off a bridge.

Post by **JAJ** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:10 pm

Impossible to be specific about timelines as some aspects will require primary legislation while others can be implemented through regulations.

Post by **Administrator** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:27 pm

.

OKay, I'll try to be more clear on that:

I have no pharkin' idea. I don't think anybody does.

The entire concept of "probationary citizenship" - in my personal and vehement opinion - is a load of rotting horse pucks.

You are a citizen or you are not. I hope the entire idea dies a hideous death, and that the dimwitted politicos pushing it suffer an even more hideous political death.

This has BNP fear-mongering written all over it. It is some attempt to "grant" citizenship without granting it while taking even more money from people who've already paid dearly.

If this idea had merit, they would just make 7 (or 9) years of residency mandatory before being allowed to apply for citizenship.

It's just a mechanism to feed the ******* taking holiday on the dole.

the Admin

Post by **JAJ** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:46 pm

Administrator wrote:.

OKay, I'll try to be more clear on that:

I have no pharkin' idea. I don't think anybody does.

The entire concept of "probationary citizenship" - in my personal and vehement opinion - is a load of rotting horse pucks.

You are a citizen or you are not. I hope the entire idea dies a hideous death, and that the dimwitted politicos pushing it suffer an even more hideous political death.

This has BNP fear-mongering written all over it. It is some attempt to "grant" citizenship without granting it while taking even more money from people who've already paid dearly.

It is quite clear that "probationary citizenship" will not be a citizenship at all, but instead limited leave to remain under the immigration rules.

Assuming the U.K. wants to keep the ability to deport such persons to their country of origin, it would be highly irresponsible to use the term "citizenship" to describe what is really just leave to remain.

If they persist with using this term, other countries may just start using it as an excuse not to accept the return of their own citizens.

If this idea had merit, they would just make 7 (or 9) years of residency mandatory before being allowed to apply for citizenship.

That is possibly what will happen in the end.

vinay shanthi · Post by **vinay shanthi** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:23 pm

i wonder what they would do in the following situation. loads of countries dont allow dual citizenship. if anyone from those countries takes any form of citizenship of other countries then they automatically renounce their original citizenship. this policy will surely result in many stateless persons if after this 'probationary citizenship' they later decide not to give full citizenship. where would they then send these stateless persons to. deportation wont be an option. for nationals of countries that dont allow dual citizenship, this might infact be a win win situation even if long drawn out as the minute they get 'probationary citizenship' they can inform the home country of this 'citizenship' and get the original citizenship revoked / annulled. so they would get defacto citizenship here as where would they deport these stateless persons later.

Post by **JAJ** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:17 pm

vinay shanthi wrote:i wonder what they would do in the following situation. loads of countries dont allow dual citizenship. if anyone from those countries takes any form of citizenship of other countries then they automatically renounce their original citizenship. this policy will surely result in many stateless persons if after this 'probationary citizenship' they later decide not to give full citizenship. where would they then send these stateless persons to. deportation wont be an option. for nationals of countries that dont allow dual citizenship, this might infact be a win win situation even if long drawn out as the minute they get 'probationary citizenship' they can inform the home country of this 'citizenship' and get the original citizenship revoked / annulled. so they would get defacto citizenship here as where would they deport these stateless persons later.

Which is why the government would be downright stupid to take this suggestion any further. If they want to make people wait longer for citizenship, just increase the waiting time for naturalisation.

Rena · Post by **Rena** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:48 am

Probationary citizenship is not related to any kind of real U.K citizenship. This means temporary visa to live in the U.K. thats it. While holding temporary visa (work permit, hsmp, student visa etc etc), preparing ourselves to get U.K citizenship would be known as Probationary citizenship. Until getting the real U.K citizenship nothing would damage the person's original citizenship of what country he belongs to.

Post by **vinny** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:27 am

See also Probationary citizenship

purplepple · Post by **purplepple** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:00 am

Christophe wrote:Not sure exactly what you mean, ...

I'm concerned with what you guys understood with the green paper's requirements for proby citizenship because I have just been approved with a 5-yr work permit. After 5 years, do I just need to pass the Life in the UK test and meet the English language requirement then my visa status changes to proby citizenship? Is it another visa status in the first place? Or does my employer have to extend my work permit for a further no. of years until I'm eligible to apply for "real" citizenship?

tobiashomer · Post by **tobiashomer** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 7:41 am

What they are really doing is removing the right to Indefinite Leave to Remain after 5 years. If you have survived 5 years and would have got ILR under the old rules, well now you get Probatinary Citizenship, which is like Roast Chicken wihout the chicken. If you are a good little boy or girl and get some nice Brit to sign a letter saying you loitered around the playground at his school, you can get to Real Citizenship after a year, maybe. Otherwise you wait in that limbo for 3 years and then grudgingly get your chicken, which may seem a little off by then even if you can have it with citizenship sauce or ILR.

But that means (1) 8 years instead of 6 as previously, and (2) a doubtful grey area when you are here on sufferance. Imagine the passport officer: "In your second year of Proby, eh? Can't be bothered to help out a bit? Not a very good citizen, are we?"

And mainly, who in his or her right mind who has a choice and will not be put before a firing squad on returning "home" would put up with that? after all the changes of the last 2 years (Life in UK, 4 to 5, PBS, non-Dom tax, and now Proby Cit) who really thinks they would NOT change the rules again during those 1 to 3 years of limbo? What would stop them? British sense of fair play? the law of contracts?

So if like me you are busy working and paying tax and looking after your own problems and not engaging in anything they could call "community service", you could be looking at, say, 7 1/2 years of insecurity and second-class status, followed by:

"This change, announced in our Brown Paper 'Making Britain Home to the Right Kind of People', takes effect immediately. The changes it introduces are not retrospective. Those already holding citizenship will not be affected, but you, I am afraid, have failed to qualify. Your so-called Community Service was not deemed sufficiently useful/politically correct/otherwise acceptable according to some half-educated halfwit clerk at the HO. Yes, failed asylum-seekers have legal recourse, but you, I am afraid, do not. Please make your mortgage payment, pay your taxes (for the whole tax year) and turn off the lights on the way out. Have a nice life."

sunny9675 · Post by **sunny9675** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:28 am

they really made our life hell

in dreams i have not thought this situation after 4 years of all hard work i am planning to go back

this situation is not good for 35+ from health point of veiw

stress+ strees = death

it is really bad scenaria

new comers please dont come in this trap

Christophe · Post by **Christophe** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:40 am

purplepple wrote:I'm concerned with what you guys understood with the green paper's requirements for proby citizenship because I have just been approved with a 5-yr work permit. After 5 years, do I just need to pass the Life in the UK test and meet the English language requirement then my visa status changes to proby citizenship? Is it another visa status in the first place? Or does my employer have to extend my work permit for a further no. of years until I'm eligible to apply for "real" citizenship?

As the others have noted, it's impossible to say for certain what will happen - even things that are said, or suggested, in the Green Paper might well not happen or be different in their final detail.

I don't think anyone knows the answer to your question about whether your employer would need to extend your work permit, but the impression I get is not: you would be a "probationary citizen" in your own right. Yes, despite its title it is another visa status, really: it is leave to remain under the immigration laws - it is not any form of true citizenship, probationary or otherwise.

Some details of proposed requirements for "probationary citizenship" and details of activities that could help or hinder a person's path through the system are provided, for example, in section 4.2 (English language requirements), section 4.3 (various minimum time requirements), section 4.4 (the effect of criminal activity), and section 4.5 ("active citizenship"). Chapter 8 provides a summary.

As at this stage it is not clear what will be the end result, it is probably idle to worry too much about it. The best that can be done is to ensure that your immigration status is up to date and that you are fulfilling all the requirements to move forward now, as the system stands.

goldfish · Post by **goldfish** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:03 pm

Plus what happens if you don't meet the Probationary Citizenship requirements for some reason like days out of the UK? Currently, you can apply for FLR (HSMP) - maybe not as good as ILR, but you can still continue residence here and maybe get ILR at some time during the extension.

The pretty diagram in the greenpaper shows those not meeting the requirements for ILR / Probation having to leave the country. If I have to do that, and apply for FLR, then my residency is broken and I start at zero.

I would like to think the greenpaper goes in the recycling, but I doubt it.

karupalli · Post by **karupalli** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:59 pm

is working in temple comes under community service?

vinay shanthi · Post by **vinay shanthi** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:36 pm

maybe answering others queries and trying to help out others should count as community service as well

then many here on IB might qualify. if only wishes could be horses.

global gypsy · Post by **global gypsy** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:38 pm

If you are concerned about the changes, please take action. Provide your feedback to HO at FEEDBACK

Admins - can we make the cited topic sticky please?

RobinLondon · Post by **RobinLondon** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:49 pm

global gypsy wrote:If you are concerned about the changes, please take action. Provide your feedback to HO at FEEDBACK

Admins - can we make the cited topic sticky please?

I think it already has been made a sticky here.

People keep asking the same questions over and over again in new threads. "What does it mean?"and "When does it take effect?". It's just that at this stage, no one really knows.

Christophe · Post by **Christophe** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 6:57 pm

karupalli wrote:is working in temple comes under community service?

I think that's a very good question. As far as I know, no one has attempted to define what is meant by "community service" in this context.

And that raises, indirectly, another very good question - who is going to decide, in any specific instance, whether what someone does will count as "community service" or whether it won't?

And of course, separately from that, "community service" is often unsung and unnoticed - taking a neighbour to hospital appointments, helping pick up friends' children from school, and so on and so on. How will those sorts of things "count": I don't suppose they will be able to.

tobiashomer · Post by **tobiashomer** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:47 pm

I don't think THEY know what it means, just that it sounds good to say "active citizenship". Like the "active ingredients" in your washing powder. This is about the same logic as touting "minimizing discretion", and "increasing flexibility" as goals of the new system, as though "discretion" were not synonymous with "flexibility". I have just read the Geen Paper carefully, and on analysis it turns out to be the confused product of confused minds, geared to please the Great Unwashed into thinking that the boffins are at last getting tough on those rich, dishonest, lazy immigrants who take jobs away from honest, God-fearing natives (again, as though stealing jobs and being lazy was not a bit of a contradiction).

Everyoone should give feedback to these idiotic proposals, and encourage their British friends to do the same (my British friends are aghast at what the HO is doing, and so would much of the public if they knew what is going on). My sense is that these proposals are so ill-conceived that they will never become law in anything like the form announced; and if they do, there will be a lot of room to appeal against such shoddy legislation.

One interesting factor to watch will be this: at present, once you get ILR your immigration status is "free of time restrictions" which is a precondition for eligibility to apply for naturalisation (after one year). Now probationary citizenship which follows 5 years WP or HSMP residence will have a time limit: but no-one knows what the limit is. John can apply for citizenship after a year even though he has done no verifiably acceptable community service, and be denied; what then? does he have to leave? to say that he can stay means that in a sense he has ILR. but supposedly if he stays 3 years without applying, or failing in his application(s), he gets citizenship anyway; or after 5 years (now having stayed a total of 10 years) he gets, begrudgingly, ILR, which is less pleasing in the eyes of the HO and thus takes longer.

they call this simple? clear? At least for the PBS they set out a timetable for implementation; for the 4-to-5 switch they made it clear it was retrospective (but not by that name) so we knew we were screwed. Now I have no idea where I stand, and it is embarrassing to tell my family who agreed to move here with me, that I don't know when we are likely to qualify for citizenship. Please everyone tell the buggers that they can require people choosing to come here in future to do whatever amuses them, but that those already in the system and on their way to qualifying for ILR and/or citizenship should not have this new system imposed on them.

Immigrationboards.com: Immigration, work visa and work permit discussion board

Probationary citizenship

Probationary citizenship

temple

Re: temple