What are the chances?

[Ben_9943]

Hi I've posted a few posts explaining my situation before. I'm now in Beijing applying for a visitor's visa for my Mongolian girlfriend who is also here with me. I realise it's a long post but maybe someone will read it

Ok first I'll post my supporting letter:

Dear Sir,

I am writing to give support to ... and ...'s application for a visitor's visa to the UK. I am ...'s boyfriend and am hoping that she will be allowed to pay a visit with her daughter. We have known each other since May 2007 and been a couple since August 2007. We first met in an apartment of a mutual friend. She introduced us and we became friends after this. This is a genuine relationship and I really need her to come to the UK to meet my parents and the rest of my family. I have already met her Mother and Daughter when they came to stay with us in Singapore in October 2007. Her mother stayed for almost a month and her daughter stayed with us after this. I have also met her youngest sister who is here with us in Beijing right now.

The reason why we are hoping to do this now is that we want to take our relationship to the next level. We were together whilst I was working as ... in Singapore. She was due to start a course in English in Singapore, but I persuaded her to go back to Mongolia and try for a course in England. At the time we really thought this would be the best option. We went through a rogue company (we didn't know anything at the time) who gave bad advice and of course the application was refused.

We're going to be extremely busy during their visit to the UK and I really want to show them all the different aspects of my life. I want to take them to London a couple of times during the visit and show them around my favorite sites such as the British Museum and the National Art Gallery and also take them to watch a concert in the Barbican one time and to the West End for a musical the next. As we will be living in the heart of the Forest of Dean there are many activities to do there.

The main place we will be staying is with my parents at their house in Gloucestershire at the above address. It is comfortable place to live and has ample room (6 bedrooms only 1 in use at the moment). My mother is a retired primary school teacher and has offered to give ... (daughter) tuition for English along with piano lessons.

As I said before this is a genuine relationship and we're both aware of the regulations when they are presented a visa. We are not ready for marriage yet but if everything goes well during the visit we will be seriously thinking about a fiance visa. She will not work or study in the UK and between us we have enough money so that she doesn't have to work. She will return back to Mongolia at the end of the visit. There can be no doubt about this because we would never see each other again if she overstayed. It's far too much risk for our relationship, for her and above everything else her daughter. Also she is well aware that if we do in fact wish to marry we cannot attempt to change to a fiance visa from a visitors visa. She would have to go back to Mongolia first and apply from there. This presents no problem for us as it would only be a couple of months apart as opposed to 4 months! I am also well informed that the embassy prefers for people to apply directly for a fiance visa when they are a couple but for us this just isn't the right thing to do yet. I really do hope that you can empathise with everything that I've said. I apologise for being so verbose but I needed to try and explain everything in the best possible way.

After the visit she and her daughter will leave the UK together.

Yours faithfully,
ben_9943.

---------------

Then I'm also sending all the conversations we've had by Skype and Yahoo Messenger, Bank Statements (hers and mine), a letter from my parents saying it's ok for them to stay there, emails backwards and forwards, plane tickets invoices to show that we were meeting at the same times, maybe a copy of my passport showing that we were in Malaysia, beijing and singapore together, an english certificate, her mother's work reference, her marriage cert (she's now separated though), driving license, visa credit card, mother's work details (as a translator and a teacher), proof that my parents own the house.

She used to work for a family business which belongs to her parents in law but she's now unemployed. So unfortunately no letter stating that she has employment to go back to. I really hope they believe in us because everything stated here is 100% true. I know that means nothing. But if anyone could advise us further on what we might need other than these things for the application any advice would be great. Also it would be interesting to find out whether people on here think this application would stand ANY chance of success? We're applying tomorrow at 7:30am and then I catch a flight back to the UK and she's going to stay in Beijing to wait.

Thanks,
Benb

[jei2]

Hi Benb,

You are on the right track with the documents that you'll be providing for your gilrfriend's application.

But you need a more clinical approach.

Make sure your documents are numbered and in date order and with an attached list of what they are.

Bear in mind that she is applying for a visitor's visa and will need to meet the criteria. You might want to cut down on your letter especially as you're not applying for a fiancee visa at this particular time.

You should try to show in this case that she intends to return. Think about the following :

Is the daughter at school? If so, is she attending during the holiday break or can you get a letter showing the expected date of return? If she's too young for school why can't she be left with a relative? I'm assuming that the daughter is a dependant (under 18).

The key is to anticipate any kind of suspicious assumptions and give explanations beforehand.

Are there any other reasons why your girlfriend would return home at the end of her stay? Is she looking for work there? I'm assuming also that she is divorced and there are no issues clouding the marriage. What role does her daughter's father play?

What were the grounds for refusal in the previous application? Try and address these properly rather than just a throwaway sentence about the previous advisers, especially if your girlfiriend didn't appeal.

Your aim is to avoid making the ECO believe that your girlfriend is simply trying to come to the UK and stay there on a visit visa. If you're both honest and provide all the relevant information this will make your partner's application a lot stronger.

[Ben_9943]

thanks for the swift response.

I realised that my letter was slightly too long. So I cut it down to just the main points.

The daughter isn't at school. She is 5 years old but schools in Mongolia aren't mandatory until the age of 7! She can't be left with relatives because her mother works, her parents are separated, one of her sisters is a student of graphic design in mongolia, the other sister is pregnant at the moment and they don't get on and her brother wouldn't have any interest to look after a kid. He's the youngest and still at school. Also she was looked after by babysitters whilst my girlfriend and I were first together and she really doesn't trust that. She doesn't have any contact with her real father and her stepfather has no interest. My girlfriend isn't looking for work back at home because we're relying on being together and actually do hope to marry after the visit but we don't want to be rushed just for the sake of a visa.

The reason for her previous refusal was

You have enrolled on course of General English at Oxford College of London for the period of 1 year. I note that the course commenced on 22 January 2008 and that students are permitted to start the course up to 4 weeks late. I'm not, therefore, satisfied that you are still acceptable on this course. You stated that you are employed as the Manager of a construction company in Mongolia and that you need to improve your English skills for the benefit of this company. You claim that you will simply recommence this employment after completing your proposed course. you have failed to demonstrate what the associated benefits of this course are and how then it will assist you in the future. I note that despite your claims of wishing to learn English in order to benefit your current employer, that your employers is not financially assisiting you with the costs of this course and expenses. Futhermore, you have not explaind adequately why you have chosen to undertake this signicifant expense by studying English in UK, rather than elsewhere, for example in Mongolia where the costs are comparatively lower. Based on the evidience before me, I'm not satisfied that you qualify for entry into the UK as a student.

Also she was not given the right of appeal.

She's still married but been separated since March 2007.

[Ben_9943]

Based on your advice jei2 I hope the letter is better now by taking out some irrelevant points and instead addressed the important issues. So just wondering if this letter makes more sense? Also would it be better (more personal) to write it out by hand (maybe they couldn't read it though)? Don't know what could make a difference really as this is the first application as a visitor that we've made. Anyway here's the letter:

Dear Sir,

I am writing to give support to ... and ...'s application for a visitor's visa to the UK. I am ...'s boyfriend and am hoping that she will be allowed to pay a visit with her daughter. We have known each other since May 2007 and been a couple since August 2007. We first met in an apartment of a mutual friend. She introduced us and we became friends after this. This is a genuine relationship and I need her to come to the UK to meet my family. I have already met her Mother and Daughter when they came to stay with us in Singapore in October 2007. Her mother stayed for almost a month and her daughter stayed with us after this.

We wish to take the relationship to the next level and we are both separated from our previous partners. We were together while I was working as ... in Singapore. She was due to start a course in English in Singapore, but I persuaded her to go back to Mongolia and try for a course in England. At the time we believed it was best option. We mistakenly went with an unscrupulous company who gave bad advice and of course the application was refused.

The refusal stated that the course commenced and she was late for the course. This had been resolved as the agent had called the course and they offered to send a new letter of acceptance dated 22 April 2008. We didn't know at the time and the agent did not notify the embassy. It asked the question why her company didn't sponsor her at that time. This company is her in laws business and they wouldn't support her as she is now separated from her husband. Also she didn't ask for their support. It sates that she claimed to recommence this employment after completing her course and that this was not believed. This was bad advice given to her by the agent. The extra expense in studying in England was another point but Mongolian English teachers are usually backpacking students earning money on the side rather than qualified students. If she had have been issued the visa at this point she would have been a genuine student for the duration of the course. We lost a significant amount of money through this.

The main place we will be staying is with my parents at their house in Gloucestershire at the above address. It is comfortable place to live and has ample room. My mother is a retired primary school teacher and has offered to give Maral tuition for English along with piano lessons. Maral is currently not at school as the required age is 7 years old for school in Mongolia. There is no way that she could be left with relatives as Solongo's mother works full time, her younger sister is a student, her older sister is pregnant and her young brother is at school and incapable of looking after a young child. She is very close to her mother and any separation would be problematic.

We're both aware of the regulations when they are presented a visa. We are not ready for marriage yet but if everything goes well during the visit we will be applying for a fiance visa. She will not work or study in the UK and we have ample funds to sustain this visit without a need for public funds. She will return to Mongolia at the end of the visit otherwise it would jeopardise our future together. It's far too much risk for our relationship, for her and above everything else her daughter. Also she is well aware that if we do in fact wish to marry we cannot attempt to change to a fiance visa from a visitors visa. She would have to go back to Mongolia first and apply from there. I am also well informed that the embassy prefers for people to apply directly for a fiance visa when they are a couple but for us this isn't appropriate at this time.

We would appreciate your kind consideration of this application.

Yours faithfully,
Benb.

Applying in 6 hours!

[jei2]

Benb,

This seems to cover the most salient points. Its well written and clear.

Can't remember seeing your bank statements listed or whoever is sponsoring her. Important if she has no money of her own being unemployed. Show that enough is available to cover the period of her stay for herself and her daughter.

I think as long as you have the relevant documentation in order you shouldn't have a problem.

I'm signing off for tonight so hopefully if you need more advice someone will pick up.

All the best!

[Ben_9943]

Thanks Jei2. Really appreciate it. Hopefully she doesn't have to wait around in Beijing forever for an interview.

[Ben_9943]

I just read about the whole new visa ban thing. The fact is that here we are admitting that the company she was using tried to help her and in such a way lied. But is she going to get an automatic ban now for 10 years? I'm getting a bit worried reading about that!

[jei2]

But she didn't know anything about the deception. Nothing.

[Ben_9943]

The reasons for refusal:

You were recently refused entry clearance as a student. The Entry Clearance Officer was not satisfied that you genuinely wanted to study or that you were accepted onto a course, because you had missed the start date. You have sought to address the reasons for your refusal in this application but I have considered this application under the Immigration Rules for a visitor visa.

You now propose a two-month visit, with your five-year old daughter to progress your relation ship with your British boyfriend, .... In his invitation letter, he stated that your relationship started in August 2007 and that you were both separated from your respective partners in October 2007 when you spent time together in Singapore. At the time of your student visa application in February 2008, you stated that you were married and that your family in Mongolia would fund your studies. You did not explain at the time of that application, that you had a British boyfriend and whilst there wasn't a direct question on the application form relating to that, I consider that it could have easily been mentioned in section 7, which you made use of for additional information. You have not explained in this application why you chose not to declare your relationship in your previous application and I consider it to undermine the credibility of your application as a whole.

Furthermore, you stated that your child would need to travel with you, due to lack of childcare in Mongolia. Your sponsor stated the same, but given that you intended to leave your daughter in Mongolia during your proposed studies, in the care of your mother and a nanny, you have not explained why that option is no longer available to you, less than two months later. I also consider this discrepancy to undermine the credibility of your application and whilst you have demonstrated an awareness of the Immigration Rules regarding potential future visa applications, I am not satisfied that you will comply with the conditions attached to any entry clearance granted to you. You stated that you are unemployed from your husband's company and aside from your immediate family, you have not demonstrated that you have any ties in Mongolia to satisfy me of your intention to leave the UK at the end of your two-month visit. I am satisfied with the bona-fides of your sponsor and his family's ability to adequately maintain and accommodate you and your daughter during your visit, but I am not satisfied that you are genuinely seeking entry as a visitor for the limited period as stated by you. Neither am I satisfied that you intend to leave the UK at the end of the visit as you have stated. I am reminded that your sponsor has a valid Chinese visa, so there is nothing from preventing him from travelling to meet you here, if you genuinely wish to progress your relationship.

I therefore refuse your application. (Paragraph 41 i, ii)

So that's the full reason.

As you can see from my previous post I never said anything about being separated from our partners in October 2007. I separated from my wife in January 2007 and my girlfriend separated from her husband in April 2007. They're making it sound like a meaningless affair! Why would she have to mention that she had a boyfriend in her previous application for a student visa? That's irrelevant information I would have thought.

For the childcare statement - well we were going to bring her daughter a month later. When we were in Singapore we phoned the British embassy in Mongolia and asked whether they could both come over at the same time if we applied for a student visa. They advised us that we should go for the student visa for her first and apply for the daughter a month later! Her mother agreed to look after her daughter for this limited time. Of course she has ties in Mongolia. Her husband is rich and she needs to go back to get divorced - women get half. Isn't that a good enough reason?

Ok so they're satisfied that my family and me can support and accommodate her during the visit so that's not an issue.

The last sentence really bothers me though. "I am reminded that your sponsor has a valid Chinese visa, so there is nothing from preventing him from travelling to meet you here, if you genuinely wish to progress your relationship." UMM - that's a ridiculous statement. For a start she doesn't live in China. I came over because it was easier than going to Mongolia and she had to travel here also so that costs quite a bit too. Flight tickets, hotel, food (western food is expensive and my stomach can't take most of the stuff in china), drinks, touristy things etc. My visa was for a month long. Cost £75 to get in the first place. Allows one visit only. What kind of relationship is that if we have to keep going through that?

Well I guess after all that my question is what can we do now? She's agreed that she could go for a visitor visa by herself and leave her daughter, but that she could only stay one month on this basis. I was wondering if it would have been someone Chinese deciding our fate because if that was the case then the race relations between Mongolians and Chinese are terrible and maybe we can appeal on that basis. We really still don't want to go for a fiance visa and now we're probably going to apply again on Monday if we can get some advice. I really don't want to see her having another refusal notice. Of course if she gets the visa on the next application for just a visit, she's going to have to take her daughter back to Mongolia first and come to the UK from there anyway. This trip has already set me back over £3000 in one month! More than we'd have spent in 2 months in the UK!

Please can anyone help us?

[jei2]

At the time of your student visa application in February 2008, you stated that you were married and that your family in Mongolia would fund your studies.

Sorry ben_9943, if you only give half the story you only get half the advice. As far as I'm concerned the above would have killed off any entry clearance application, unless it was explained in the additional information section.

Furthermore, you stated that your child would need to travel with you, due to lack of childcare in Mongolia. Your sponsor stated the same, but given that you intended to leave your daughter in Mongolia during your proposed studies, in the care of your mother and a nanny, you have not explained why that option is no longer available to you, less than two months later.

Likewise the issue with the daughter who I'd assumed (but shouldn't have), was joining her mother during her studies. It should have been explained that she was only going to spend a limited time with her grandmother - and why. Also if the husband is rich why can't he fund the childcare?

It sounds as if your partner's in-laws don't know about her relationship with you and this has added complications to how the application form was completed. The end result is that she is going to look duplicitous - once again.

I think you need to take a step back and decide how you really want to address this matter. I wouldn't rush into another application just yet. Take your time and get it right. Don't make assumptions about advice given by a government agency. Explain everything and make sure you and your partner are on the same page in any future applications.

[Ben_9943]

Again saying she was married and telling the truth (in one way) was the advice given to her by the company she used. They had told her that nothing needed to be said about me because she wasn't going for anything other than a student visa and they (probably like others) told her that the application would be successful.

The husband isn't the father of the child so I'm not sure about whether that's relevant or not. The husband knows that I exist but I'm not sure if the in-laws do or not and neither does my girlfriend. She thinks - knowing him - that he wouldn't have told them.

I personally spoke to the British Embassy in Mongolia and asked them about bringing them both over at the same time and they told me that it wouldn't work like that.

There are explanations for every reason why it was refused, apart from the intention to return to Mongolia and I was thinking that leaving the daughter in Mongolia (against my girlfriend's wishes) would be a damn good reason to return.

We'd really like to apply again on Monday. It was refused on the 11th but we had no idea until today because the vfs website wasn't updated or something. I only wish they would give her an interview or at least call and speak to me, my parents or her. It's really frustrating the fact that they don't know us from adam and however watertight we might think the application is, they can always find doubts.

Is there any way to help convince them that this is for real? Just a letter of sponsorship is so impersonal.

[Ben_9943]

So I suppose it's going to be impossible for a visitor visa now?