ESC
Welcome to immigrationboards.com!
Moderators: Casa, Amber, archigabe, batleykhan, ca.funke, ChetanOjha, EUsmileWEallsmile, JAJ, John, Obie, push, geriatrix, vinny, CR001, zimba, meself2, Administrator
All European States have the right to control their own immigration boarders. you asking for a further reduction of state power in favour of Europe? well there would not be too many people willing to remain in the Union then, it is a unoin of different member states joined together in co-operation in areas such as economic and thats the way it should be, not a federal USA. this increase in power to europe is a huge issue for the lisbon treaty - i bet you france or germany would not like to see themselves being dicated by Brussels if they were small states like ireland or if they did not have the voting power that they do have (to which considering their size is fair and reasonable)mr.malikos wrote:It is exactly as I thought. Based on this Irish times article they (DoJ) just try to establish a prototype case. In addition, for sure they are going just to present rejected asylum cases similar to Akrich with the intention to apply then this prototype ruling also to cases that are similar to Jia cases.
I just hope that there are good solicitors involved there defending EU.1. It is a shame that also Germany, Britain and Italy also supported this non-sense position of the Irish government.
This is completely contrary to the spirit of the directive 2004/38/EC. It would not make any sense to give first broad rights to all EU citizens and then to reduce successively the amount of benifitaries based on the willing of individual EU-states.
The EU fist priority shall be to be there for its citizens and explicitly not to enhance state power. State power should be reduced and individual and basis right should be enforced.
States have to accept that their power to govern has reduced and will shrink further within the EU, especially with regard to other EU-citizens. They will have to treat them more and more like their own citizens. That is the whole idea about Europe, sharing common values, facilitating intra-european-live, equalising oppetunities and laws for all EU-citizens.
I really cannot see how they (DoJ) think in practice the people shall acquire this stupid EU.1 prior residency. They just introduce barriers to grant people they want residency; with a definite lack of basic democratic mechanism such as transparency, the right to appeal and a higher authority to control and audit DoJ. Why did they settle some cases out of court why others not? Why some decisions take up to two years why other just six month?
So what should people do? Just to move on and leave their lives and jobs...or just to separate with their spouses for six month and live in two different EU countries...
Why do they not ask then Irish/non EU-couples to leave the state? Are they any better than me...do they have a more valuable relationship? Ach they just make me so angry.......
yes! if one had legal status of some sort at time of marriage and or application, Jia may have being able to be adequately applied. if no status then Jia may not be used as seen in Kumar 2007. The only reason why people got settlements. I am aware also that the remaining cases in court have sought for damages!. did you have legal status at any point, if so why are you still in this position?mr.malikos wrote:just some other interesting info....especially the last part of it...
A directive is a legislative act of the European Union which requires member states to achieve a particular result without dictating the means of achieving that result. It can be distinguished from European Union regulations which are self-executing and do not require any implementing measures. Directives normally leave member states with a certain amount of leeway as to the exact rules to be adopted. Directives can be adopted by means of a variety of legislative procedures depending on its subject matter.
Contents [hide]
1 Legal basis
2 Legal effect
2.1 Implementation
2.2 Direct Effect
3 See also
4 External links
[edit] Legal basis
The legal basis for the enactment of directives is article 249 of the Treaty establishing the European Community and, as such, directives only apply within the European Community pillar of the European Union.
[edit] Legal effect
Directives are only binding on the member states to whom they are addressed, which can be just one member state or a group of them. In practice however, with the exception of directives related to the Common Agricultural Policy, directives are addressed to all member states.
[edit] Implementation
When adopted, directives give member states a timetable for the implementation of the intended outcome. Occasionally the laws of a member state may already comply with this outcome and the state involved would only be required to keep their laws in place. But more commonly member states are required to make changes to their laws in order for the directive to be implemented correctly. If a member state fails to pass the required national legislation, or if the national legislation does not adequately comply with the requirements of the directive, the European Commission may initiate legal action against the member state in the European Court of Justice.
[edit] Direct Effect
Notwithstanding the fact that directives were not originally thought to be binding before they were implemented by member states, the European Court of Justice developed the doctrine of direct effect where unimplemented or badly implemented directives can actually have direct legal force. And in Francovich v. Italy the court found that member states could be liable to pay damages to individuals and companies who had been adversely affected by the non-implementation of a directive.
thanks walrusgumble for brining me to the point of damages!
This may explain why DoJ seeks so often to settle cases out of court
International law might prevent countries from deporting their own citizens but Ireland doesnt care about that. Ireland has in the past deported Irish citizens who were minors, and guess what- they were all black. Ireland got billions from the EU and they even managed to make a balls of it. A pathetically embarrassing infrastructure. Health care which is the worst in the EU, same for broadband, public transport, schools etc.walrusgumble wrote:You ask why irish / non nationals are not asked to leave the country? well for a start this is their country, and they may not have any other entitlement to citizenship in another country, secondly international law prevents a country from deporting their own citizens. every country have different rules in relation to marriage to their own citizens. wise up
would you wise the hell up! i do hope you realise that the laws have changed on citizenshipjoesoap101 wrote:International law might prevent countries from deporting their own citizens but Ireland doesnt care about that. Ireland has in the past deported Irish citizens who were minors, and guess what- they were all black. Ireland got billions from the EU and they even managed to make a balls of it. A pathetically embarrassing infrastructure. Health care which is the worst in the EU, same for broadband, public transport, schools etc.walrusgumble wrote:You ask why irish / non nationals are not asked to leave the country? well for a start this is their country, and they may not have any other entitlement to citizenship in another country, secondly international law prevents a country from deporting their own citizens. every country have different rules in relation to marriage to their own citizens. wise up
The EU should come down hard on Ireland for its intransigent attitude. And I believe they will, but it will take time.
This is the biggest amount of nonsense I ever read on this forum.walrusgumble wrote:would you wise the hell up! i do hope you realise that the laws have changed on citizenship
they and their parents had nor they ever had connection with the state, they also had citizenship of e.g. Nigeria etc. Check the stats from the national hospitals between the period of 1998-2003, look how many women came in heavily pregant. check the stats from ORAC and RAT see how many cases for asylum all of a sudden withdrew their cases for protection because of their status as parents of citizen children. check the case law and look at the facts of those cases - clear indication of the ABUSE that was made to the previous law on automatic rights to citizenship and right of parents to reside in the state. i taught they were going to be killed?
the reason why most were black is simply because that was the colour of most asylum seekers who were, in the eyes of the Rat mainly economic immigrants and not refugees. if you are so concerned, then most of the western world is just the same. Britian, who has more linkage in both history and politics with africa did the same in 1986 (got rid of automatic citizenship) so wise up!
by the way it was the parents of the citizen child and not the child itself that got deported. (do not even try to use the race card)
Secondly, most of the parents got an opportunity to make applications under the IBC 2005 scheme. only over 17,500 actually bothered to make the application. only just over 1,000 got refused. guess why they were refused? some parents were no longer active parents with child, some left the country shortly after the birth of child, some fathers only came over to ireland to reunite 2 years after birth of child. (the mother having applied for asylum with some chicken n bull story and never mentioned in application or birth cert name of father) even after all of this, there is a good chance they may get to staty depending on the facts of their cases through leave to remain applications, so there are not many Irish citizens or parents of citizens being deported! so us the figures.
can you please explain how ireland made a balls of all the "billions" it has made with regard to this State. You have to understand that extremely low taxes etc (which europe want shot of) brought huge multinational (mostly american) companies to this state. irish people get what they deserve with regard to health service etc in that they dont want to pay any more tax. the curse of capitalism and globalisation!
I strongly recommend that you pick up an economics book or teach yourself the history of the irish economy and compare that to other countries who are at the same stage as us. most American companies HQ is based in Ireland, of course that will be changing with the cheap labour in east Europe (same reasons they came here in teh 1980's to early 1990's - and good look to the countries - up to Ireland now to focus on new areas akin with the Germans and Brits etc) look at spain, they got similar treatment and joined the EU at the same time, they have done damn all that is worth talking about (although of course we did not have a dictator for over 20 years) last time i checked our third level institutes were doing well, plenty of highly qualified nationals in the work force (bar Dail Eireann of course)
Please show we how the irish health service is the "worst" in Europe. you include Moldova and Lativa etc with that? show me figures and sources of that nonsense. Granted their are huge problems in the service, but so too in many eu states.
Were are you from anyway why did you leave your country if its so great, why did you come here? where do you get off ranting that crap without backing up what you say. It is simple, if you do not like what you see here then leave, if you are a european citizen then you have the right to make your complaints to irish MEP's and protest, join the many irish people that are complaining of the Health services etc (do something postive!)
What are you going to say if we find out that the European Court of Justice rules in favour of Ireland. wouldn't that be a clear indication that Ireland complies with the law? even look at the article from the times/indo, see the article highlighting the huge indication that big guns of the UK, Germany and Italy may agree with ireland? - all of which is consistent with EU caselaw, allthough no ECJ are not bound by previous decisions.
Yes - the laws changed.walrusgumble wrote:would you wise the hell up! i do hope you realise that the laws have changed on citizenship
This is not these people's fault - it's Ireland's fault having provided this loophole in the past.walrusgumble wrote:they and their parents had nor they ever had connection with the state, they also had citizenship of e.g. Nigeria etc. Check the stats from the national hospitals between the period of 1998-2003, look how many women came in heavily pregant. check the stats from ORAC and RAT see how many cases for asylum all of a sudden withdrew their cases for protection because of their status as parents of citizen children. check the case law and look at the facts of those cases - clear indication of the ABUSE that was made to the previous law on automatic rights to citizenship and right of parents to reside in the state. i taught they were going to be killed?
There were cases where children were deported with their parents, with the point that these children (under old legislation IRISH) are too young to take care of themselves.walrusgumble wrote:the reason why most were black is simply because that was the colour of most asylum seekers who were, in the eyes of the Rat mainly economic immigrants and not refugees. if you are so concerned, then most of the western world is just the same. Britian, who has more linkage in both history and politics with africa did the same in 1986 (got rid of automatic citizenship) so wise up!
by the way it was the parents of the citizen child and not the child itself
that got deported. (do not even try to use the race card)
This is dwelling on the how-and-why...walrusgumble wrote:Secondly, most of the parents got an opportunity to make applications under the IBC 2005 scheme. only over 17,500 actually bothered to make the application. only just over 1,000 got refused. guess why they were refused? some parents were no longer active parents with child, some left the country shortly after the birth of child, some fathers only came over to ireland to reunite 2 years after birth of child. (the mother having applied for asylum with some chicken n bull story and never mentioned in application or birth cert name of father) even after all of this, there is a good chance they may get to staty depending on the facts of their cases through leave to remain applications, so there are not many Irish citizens or parents of citizens being deported! so us the figures.
The Irish low taxes were made possible due to the subsidies received from Brussels.walrusgumble wrote:can you please explain how ireland made a balls of all the "billions" it has made with regard to this State. You have to understand that extremely low taxes etc (which europe want shot of) brought huge multinational (mostly american) companies to this state. irish people get what they deserve with regard to health service etc in that they dont want to pay any more tax. the curse of capitalism and globalisation!
You will vote "NO" for Lisbon now, to be able to block any changes on EU-subsidies.walrusgumble wrote:I strongly recommend that you pick up an economics book or teach yourself the history of the irish economy and compare that to other countries who are at the same stage as us. most American companies HQ is based in Ireland, of course that will be changing with the cheap labour in east Europe (same reasons they came here in teh 1980's to early 1990's - and good look to the countries - up to Ireland now to focus on new areas akin with the Germans and Brits etc) look at spain, they got similar treatment and joined the EU at the same time, they have done damn all that is worth talking about (although of course we did not have a dictator for over 20 years) last time i checked our third level institutes were doing well, plenty of highly qualified nationals in the work force (bar Dail Eireann of course)
Look at waiting-lists for surgeries. Just an example I happen to be familiar with.walrusgumble wrote:Please show we how the irish health service is the "worst" in Europe. you include Moldova and Lativa etc with that? show me figures and sources of that nonsense. Granted their are huge problems in the service, but so too in many eu states.
I came here from Germany, as I wanted to study where English is spoken. After that I wanted to go back to Germany, but jobs here were better, so I stayed.walrusgumble wrote:Were are you from anyway why did you leave your country if its so great, why did you come here? where do you get off ranting that crap without backing up what you say. It is simple, if you do not like what you see here then leave, if you are a european citizen then you have the right to make your complaints to irish MEP's and protest, join the many irish people that are complaining of the Health services etc (do something postive!)
We will see what they decide as time comes.walrusgumble wrote:What are you going to say if we find out that the European Court of Justice rules in favour of Ireland. wouldn't that be a clear indication that Ireland complies with the law? even look at the article from the times/indo, see the article highlighting the huge indication that big guns of the UK, Germany and Italy may agree with ireland? - all of which is consistent with EU caselaw, allthough no ECJ are not bound by previous decisions.
if you cared to actually check the sources that i provided, you shall note that there is evidence in support of the change of the laws on citizenship.joesoap101 wrote:It was a battle to stay awake reading that so I read about 5% of it.
'I taught they were going to be killed'. I certainly hope you didnt teach that to anyone!
They deported Irish citizens end of story.
It was found that most of the foreign births were to EU nationals so the argument used by the government was fallacious.
The only reason why American multinationals are in Ireland is because Ireland has a low corporation tax rate of 12.5%. I hope they will pull out soon given the anti American sentiment here.
Finally, that referendum on citizenship finally showed the world that the Irish people are amongst the most dearly beloved and xenophobic in the world.
Wise up!
i agreed with you at certain points there. yes, not too many western countries have automatic citizenship at birth anymore. i guess it is something to do with the irish government ways to do things. in north america, they still offer automatic citizenship at brith, but they clearly put down the rule that the kid allow to stay but it doesnt mean the parents can, but the parents could apply and the government might say yes or no. that was few years ago about the czech and nigerian families case went to high court in ireland. i dont know enough about the irish constitution on the automatic birth right. the czech and nigerian families applied for asylum and got turn down and then used the right as irish born child parents to claim residency in ireland. to be honest, i could be wrong but i think most of the people knows what their intension for the claim anyway. but back then, i think they were entitled for make a claim because of the law provided them the right to do so. i think the constitution in ireland clearly stating that no irish should be separated from their family should cover those trying to claim residency based on irish born child. again, the irish government didnt change the constitution but the common law for no automatic birth right is within their right to do so and it was a right thing to do. unless the irish do it like the north american way and provide automatic birth right and parents could apply for staying but may be. but changing the common law instead of constitution is easier. i think the irish government was not wrong to change the law in automatic birth right, at least it cuts out some people trying to cut corner. but again the minister for justice (mr mcdowell) was too busy to claim he done this and that back then instead of doing his job. thats why so many problems in the place about immigrationwalrusgumble wrote:if you cared to actually check the sources that i provided, you shall note that there is evidence in support of the change of the laws on citizenship.joesoap101 wrote:It was a battle to stay awake reading that so I read about 5% of it.
'I taught they were going to be killed'. I certainly hope you didnt teach that to anyone!
They deported Irish citizens end of story.
It was found that most of the foreign births were to EU nationals so the argument used by the government was fallacious.
The only reason why American multinationals are in Ireland is because Ireland has a low corporation tax rate of 12.5%. I hope they will pull out soon given the anti American sentiment here.
Finally, that referendum on citizenship finally showed the world that the Irish people are amongst the most dearly beloved and xenophobic in the world.
Wise up!
Instead of being so arrogant and shouting dearly beloved dearly beloved just becasue things dont go your way at least produce a counter argument / debate with evidence of your case.
Provide states on your submission! check the case law, check the facts that ere stated by the judge, Nigerians claiming they were being threatend by cults and vodoo. the judge notes the cases were completely unfounded. how come all of a sudden that did not matter no more since a chid was born. The whole purpose of being allowed into the state was to make an application for asylum and see it through.NOT to give birth and take advantage of the laws.
How many western countries still have the law of automatic citizenship at time of birth and give non nationals the right to reside in the state on basis of parentage to the citizen. for all the european citizens here, how many of your countries will allow non nationals who have no prior entitlement to reside in the state or have overstayed and have no real connection in the state (ie length of time there), be granted status becasue they are parents to citizens? so you tell that to the irish tax payer! over 100's of millions have being drained in the courts when proper infrastructure as one chap mentioned could have been brought in!
(by the way you never stated your nationality, and why you came here?)
which "foreign births" were to EU nationals?, provide the stats, news reports and case law! you talking about Loebe family in 2003? they were Czech's. the Czechs in 2002/2003 were NOT EU nationals. IF these family WERE EU nationals then they would be entitled to stay on that basis! Moreover, non eu families were given a generous oppoertunity to avail of residency under the Irish Born Child Scheme in 2005 so long as they met very reasonable conditions (much of which are stated above) EVEN Europe and england are consistent on this
AS much as you don't want to hear this or your to arrogant to realise this (great attitude by the way) the reason for the change in the laws on citizenship came about in the aftermath of the 2003 european court of justice case of CHEN! around this time, ireland was readying its self to take up the Presidency of the European Council etc and member states campaigned and barracked the irish government to change the laws. why? it set precent for ireland being a back door to immigration polices in Europe .
as for corporation tax? eh no S8it sherlock! what is your point though. ireland did well to get these companies in. good business, you seem to forget that should corportation tax be halted, you wont have any chance of getting a job, moreover, it will be nigh impossible to bring your family over here. by the way majority of irish people are very pro america, regardless of the wars.
if you are so concerned with staying with the EEA spouse why dont to try to live with them in their country? will they let you in? why dont they look after you, after all you are married to one of THEIR citizens. lets see what attitude they will take. of course without reason ye will rant dearly beloved dearly beloved
to be honest, if and if your statements had merits, fine a reasonable person could accept them, but without evidence or as much as naming a source on were you get those ideas, its sheer and bloody beloved on the irish.
Statistic is slightly different and it shows that beloved is slowly going down. Especially, if you will take into account growing number of immigrants and improved report system.joesoap101 wrote:Well I have a number of friends who are non-white who have suffered facial abuse and apparently it has gotten worse. I guess its nothing compared to say Russia with their neo nazi's but it is still a problem.
The ECJ aint got a clue about anything, wrote to them as well but no joy, a bunch of time wasters, in fact the whole EU is not fit for purpose, they cant implement their own directives, just another talking shopca.funke wrote:Hi knapps,
you can check the status of the case here.
The last hearing took place on June 03rd, the next action due is the final ruling.
I sent a corresponding enquiry to the court. I was told to check their calendar, and that nothing more can be said...
...I hope they'll move soon, as this is obviously urgent for quite a big amount of people.
Rgds, Christian
Thank you for your query which was referred to me this morning. There is no date set as yet for the Hearing in this case.ca.funke wrote:Hi knapps,
you can check the status of the case here.
The last hearing took place on June 03rd, the next action due is the final ruling.
I sent a corresponding enquiry to the court. I was told to check their calendar, and that nothing more can be said...
...I hope they'll move soon, as this is obviously urgent for quite a big amount of people.
Rgds, Christian
