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Thanks for sharing your inputs on the same. My mother was in the UK before her marriage with her parents from 1969 until mid 1975. When she got married to my father, she never changed her citizenship and she was always on on a visa during her stay in India since she was a british citizen and all her passports say the same thing till now. Secondly, she has currently been living in the UK since 2005 till date with my younger brother.sunburn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 2:31 amWhat are all of your mothers periods of residence in UK ? Your brothers circumstances and yours are different . Your mother was not born in the UK and as such gained right of abode on the basis of residence . Her right of abode is what gives her child the ability to register , and she needs to have lived in the UK for a certain amount of time before your birth for you to be eligible .
So are you saying if my mother goes through the registration or naturalization process now, she applies for it I may be eligible for it then..... because it really does not make sense of the kind of discrimination they have between children of British parents.secret.simon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 3:38 amThe refusal is correct.
Between 1971 and 1983, there were two facets to what we now call British citizenship; Citizenship of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC) and Right of Abode. Of the former, children born abroad could only inherit CUKC status from their fathers.
Right of Abode (which was a part of immigration law, not nationality law) was an individual status, granted to CUKCs who met certain specified requirements, such as being born, registered or naturalised in the UK or having resided in the UK for five years.
Your mother was a CUKC with the Right of Abode under Section 2(1)(c) (five years residence) of the Immigration Act.
At the time of your birth in the UK, you could not have inherited CUKC through your mother. You also did not have Right of Abode (RoA) as your mother did not have RoA by birth, registration or naturalisation in the UK nor had you resided in the UK for five years before 1983.
The law on nationality and citizenship changed on 1st January 1983. All CUKCs with Right of Abode became British citizens. Because your mother had both CUKC and Right of Abode (by residence in the UK for five years), she automatically became a British citizen on 1st January 1983. Also, children born abroad to British citizens otherwise than by descent (like your mother) after 1st January 1983 were automatically British citizens. Therefore, your brother, born after 1983, was a British citizen by descent at his birth automatically.
Being born before 1983, you can be registered under Form UKM only if you meet two separate and different conditions (also see Page 5 of Guide UKM which goes into more details);
a) you could have inherited CUKC status from your mother at the time of your birth if the law allowed for citizenship to descend through mothers.
AND
b) you (not your mother but you) had RoA before 1983.
But you do not meet the latter requirement, as you had not resided in the UK for five years before 1983, nor were you, your mother or any of her parents born, registered or naturalised in the UK.
Therefore the refusal is correct. There is currently no path to British citizenship by descent for you if you have ever held an Indian passport or other official documentation. You will have to go through the whole immigration process yourself.
No. Your mother is already a British citizen and therefore cannot register or naturalise as a British citizen now.gsjaitla wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:07 amSo are you saying if my mother goes through the registration or naturalization process now, she applies for it I may be eligible for it then..... because it really does not make sense of the kind of discrimination they have between children of British parents.
With regards to this application i requested to know the approach from the case worker who was wotking on my case and got the following reply via mailsecret.simon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:13 amThere is no discrimination. The law changed between your birth and the birth of your brother. Therefore you did not become a British citizen, but he did.
No. Your mother is already a British citizen and therefore cannot register or naturalise as a British citizen now.gsjaitla wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:07 amSo are you saying if my mother goes through the registration or naturalization process now, she applies for it I may be eligible for it then..... because it really does not make sense of the kind of discrimination they have between children of British parents.
If she (or one of her parents), being born outside the UK & Colonies, had registered as a CUKC in the UK before you were born, then you would have been a British citizen. As she was born in a colony, she was a CUKC automatically and could not have registered as a CUKC in the UK anyway.
Of course, if you were born in the UK, you would also have been a British citizen.
You are not a British citizen (and do not have a claim to British citizenship) because of a peculiar conjunction of when and where you were born (outside the UK and your mother had RoA because of her own residence in the UK) & the law as it stood then.
Can someone explain the meaning of the email above mentioned as when i asked them to apply again they said I need to do as follows:gsjaitla wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 6:23 amWith regards to this application i requested to know the approach from the case worker who was wotking on my case and got the following reply via mailsecret.simon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:13 amThere is no discrimination. The law changed between your birth and the birth of your brother. Therefore you did not become a British citizen, but he did.
No. Your mother is already a British citizen and therefore cannot register or naturalise as a British citizen now.gsjaitla wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 4:07 amSo are you saying if my mother goes through the registration or naturalization process now, she applies for it I may be eligible for it then..... because it really does not make sense of the kind of discrimination they have between children of British parents.
If she (or one of her parents), being born outside the UK & Colonies, had registered as a CUKC in the UK before you were born, then you would have been a British citizen. As she was born in a colony, she was a CUKC automatically and could not have registered as a CUKC in the UK anyway.
Of course, if you were born in the UK, you would also have been a British citizen.
You are not a British citizen (and do not have a claim to British citizenship) because of a peculiar conjunction of when and where you were born (outside the UK and your mother had RoA because of her own residence in the UK) & the law as it stood then.
"Dear xxxxxx
Thank you for your enquiry.
If your application is unsuccessful, we will write to tell you why. There is no right of appeal against our decision to refuse an application but if you believe it is incorrect, you can apply for it to be reconsidered by completing form NR. You must send the £372 fee with your completed application form to the address below.
UK Visas & Immigration.
The Capital Building
Department 1
New Hall Place
Liverpool
L3 9PP
You will need to show that our decision was not soundly based on nationality law or the current policy or procedure. These are described in the relevant guides to applicants and in any other communication you have received from us.
If you write to ask us to review our decision, you must explain why you think we have not correctly applied the law and policy in your case.
www.gov.uk/government/publications/appl ... ed-form-nr"
Because you don't qualify for it or UKM route.So why deny my citizenship. Does ti mean they themselves are not sure about it or are not quite accurate of their rules around British nationality
Because you are not eligible/do not meet the requirements of the law.
Section 2 of the Immigration Act 1971 as enacted (which defines who had Right of Abode before 1983, when you were born).The third condition is that immediately before 1st January 1983 the applicant would have had the right of abode in the United Kingdom by virtue of section 2 of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77) had he become a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies as described in subsection (3) above.
I would like to mention secret.simon that the law itself is mixed up for now... coz as you say that :secret.simon wrote: ↑Mon Jan 21, 2019 8:54 pmBecause you are not eligible/do not meet the requirements of the law.
For your reference, in case you want to look into the law yourself, the relevant sections are
Section 4C of the British Nationality Act 1981 (which specifies the requirements for registration on Form UKM). In particular, see sub-section (4) of that Section.Section 2 of the Immigration Act 1971 as enacted (which defines who had Right of Abode before 1983, when you were born).The third condition is that immediately before 1st January 1983 the applicant would have had the right of abode in the United Kingdom by virtue of section 2 of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77) had he become a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies as described in subsection (3) above.
it means that the law of UKM does not apply in a direct way to all children who were born before 1983 to a British mother. The reason the mother did not apply for my CUCK was because they were not aware of such things. Secondly, the law should then clearly state that UKM is being introduced only if your mother is born a british citizen and not otherwise. Its a very contradicting law and if required i guess we can argue over some points to rightfully get the British Citizenship.The third condition is that immediately before 1st January 1983 the applicant would have had the right of abode in the United Kingdom by virtue of section 2 of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77) had he become a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies as described in subsection (3) above.
No, it doesn't. It states very specific conditions to be met.
Your mother could not have applied for your CUKC because CUKC status descended only through CUKC fathers to children born overseas. CUKC mothers could not pass on CUKC citizenship to their children.
It does. There is the direct link to Section 4C of the British Nationality Act 1981 above. Page 5 of Guide UKM summarises the requirements for Form UKM very clearly.
The law as it stands is clear. Reconsideration will have no advantage and will not result in a different result.
The way I interpret it, Form UKM (and almost all methods of acquiring British citizenship) requires either an ancestral or a residential connection to the UK (as currently constituted).
I concur with your summary, though given that it is late in the day (actually night) for me, I will respond more fully to the summary later.sunburn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:49 amThe options as I understand them are:
- mother born in UK (specifically the UK and not colonies)
- grandmother born in UK, mother born outside (non-Commonwealth country ?) - Romein route
- person both outside UK to CUKC (non UK born) mother and person resided in UK 5 years before 1983 .
Dead on. The Romein decision applies to grandfather or grandmother born in the UK, but otherwise spot on.sunburn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:49 amsecret.simon, yes that’s how I understand it . The options as I understand them are:
- mother born in UK (specifically the UK and not colonies)
- grandmother born in UK, mother born outside (non-Commonwealth country ?) - Romein route
- person both outside UK to CUKC (non UK born) mother and person resided in UK 5 years before 1983 .
Would you mind correcting me where I’m inaccurate or incomplete here ?