'Naturalised Citizen was almost barred from Lisbon vote'

[asrpb]

I was almost barred from Lisbon vote
By Fiachra O'Cionnaith
Monday June 23 2008

AN RTE presenter and anti-beloved campaigner who has lived in Ireland for over a decade was almost blocked from voting in the Lisbon Treaty -- because officials claimed she wasn't Irish.

Shalini Sinha has claimed she was initially refused the right to vote last week.

The broadcaster, life-coach and journalist -- who was born in Canada and whose parents are from India -- has lived in Ireland since 1996.

And for the last three years the former presenter of Mono and Health Squad and star of Celebrity Jigs n' Reels has been a legally naturalised citizen of her adopted homeland, with the same entitlements and rights as any other person with an Irish passport.

But despite being a naturalised Irish citizen and living in the country for over a decade, when anti-beloved campaigner attempted to use her vote in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown electoral area at 7.45pm last Thursday, officials initially refused to count it.

evidence

Despite Shalini's insistence, passport and evidence that she was on the electoral register -- an issue she had checked twice in recent months -- officials at the south Dublin voting station repeatedly insisted she was not eligible to vote.

But after a half-hour stand-off during which the RTE presenter and Irish citizen demanded to speak to the supervisor, her legal right to vote was finally allowed, with officials at the voting station putting the mistake down to an administrative error.

Shalini went public with the situation in her column in the latest edition of multi-cultural newspaper Metro Eireann.

And speaking to the Herald today, she added that while an administrative error waw cited the situation is a worrying sign.

The RTE presenter said:"I have an Irish passport, I am on the electoral register, and I voted in the 2007 General Election, but I was at first stopped from voting last week.

"If I had an Irish name I have to say I don't believe this would have happened," Shalini told the Herald.

"I'm a very conscientious voter. I've been down before to vote, and when they told me I couldn't I was very annoyed.

"I'm sure they expected me to just walk away, but I showed them my passport and told them I wasn't going home until I was allowed to vote. If I didn't do that I don't think they would have allowed me to vote.

problem

"The problem was apparently that my name on the registration list was put down as temporary -- as 'potential European' -- in the local elections, even though I put it down as permanent. I voted in them and in the General Election last year, so why would I not be able to vote this time?

"I don't think anyone intentionally did this."

Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has confirmed that up to 30 people who turned up to vote on the treaty last Thursday week were unable to do so as they were not on the electoral register.

- Fiachra O'Cionnaith

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/i-wa ... 19156.html

[HOTSPURS]

hmm..all Naturalized citizens wouldn't hesitate to vote 'Yes'...probably that's another reason they discourage & not allow them..

[Christophe]

hmm..all Naturalized citizens wouldn't hesitate to vote 'Yes'...probably that's another reason they discourage & not allow them..

I doubt that. And you can't say, surely, that all naturalised citizens would vote the same way: they are all individual people with individual backgrounds and their own views, the same as everybody else.

[JAJ]

hmm..all Naturalized citizens wouldn't hesitate to vote 'Yes'...probably that's another reason they discourage & not allow them..

I think the Irish Government wanted a yes vote, so what you say doesn't really make sense.

The experience in other countries is that naturalised citizens often have a stronger sense of identification with their adopted country than the "native" population. Hence might actually be more inclined to vote "No" to a proposal like Lisbon.

[HOTSPURS]

Latest survey says the Irish love the EU & most of them feel they've only benifitted from joining the EU. They probably don't want any changes to their constitution more than EU interference? Countries like Austria & UK say they haven't gained anything but still voted 'yes'

[Ben]

Latest survey says the Irish love the EU & most of them feel they've only benifitted from joining the EU. They probably don't want any changes to their constitution more than EU interference? Countries like Austria & UK say they haven't gained anything but still voted 'yes'

Any reference for this?

[JAJ]

Countries like Austria & UK say they haven't gained anything but still voted 'yes'

Neither country held a referendum, so unclear where this information comes from.

[kevo]

that's hardly news and it's ridiculous to suggest that there was some policty to discourage non-nationals to vote.

it was obviously just an admin glitch where the polling clerk thought that it was only Irish nationals (rather than Irish citizens who could vote on a referendum) - an easy mistake for anyone to make surely.

I was almost barred from Lisbon vote
By Fiachra O'Cionnaith
Monday June 23 2008

AN RTE presenter and anti-beloved campaigner who has lived in Ireland for over a decade was almost blocked from voting in the Lisbon Treaty -- because officials claimed she wasn't Irish.

Shalini Sinha has claimed she was initially refused the right to vote last week.

The broadcaster, life-coach and journalist -- who was born in Canada and whose parents are from India -- has lived in Ireland since 1996.

And for the last three years the former presenter of Mono and Health Squad and star of Celebrity Jigs n' Reels has been a legally naturalised citizen of her adopted homeland, with the same entitlements and rights as any other person with an Irish passport.

But despite being a naturalised Irish citizen and living in the country for over a decade, when anti-beloved campaigner attempted to use her vote in the Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown electoral area at 7.45pm last Thursday, officials initially refused to count it.

evidence

Despite Shalini's insistence, passport and evidence that she was on the electoral register -- an issue she had checked twice in recent months -- officials at the south Dublin voting station repeatedly insisted she was not eligible to vote.

But after a half-hour stand-off during which the RTE presenter and Irish citizen demanded to speak to the supervisor, her legal right to vote was finally allowed, with officials at the voting station putting the mistake down to an administrative error.

Shalini went public with the situation in her column in the latest edition of multi-cultural newspaper Metro Eireann.

And speaking to the Herald today, she added that while an administrative error waw cited the situation is a worrying sign.

The RTE presenter said:"I have an Irish passport, I am on the electoral register, and I voted in the 2007 General Election, but I was at first stopped from voting last week.

"If I had an Irish name I have to say I don't believe this would have happened," Shalini told the Herald.

"I'm a very conscientious voter. I've been down before to vote, and when they told me I couldn't I was very annoyed.

"I'm sure they expected me to just walk away, but I showed them my passport and told them I wasn't going home until I was allowed to vote. If I didn't do that I don't think they would have allowed me to vote.

problem

"The problem was apparently that my name on the registration list was put down as temporary -- as 'potential European' -- in the local elections, even though I put it down as permanent. I voted in them and in the General Election last year, so why would I not be able to vote this time?

"I don't think anyone intentionally did this."

Dun Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council has confirmed that up to 30 people who turned up to vote on the treaty last Thursday week were unable to do so as they were not on the electoral register.

- Fiachra O'Cionnaith

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/i-wa ... 19156.html

[Christophe]

that's hardly news and it's ridiculous to suggest that there was some policty to discourage non-nationals to vote.

it was obviously just an admin glitch where the polling clerk thought that it was only Irish nationals (rather than Irish citizens who could vote on a referendum) - an easy mistake for anyone to make surely.

Well, not really an easy mistake assuming that the person in question was on the electoral roll.

And she is an Irish citizen and an Irish national – what is the distinction that is being drawn here between these two statuses?

[kevo]

the article suggests that this person was a naturalised citizen and not a national.

Haing previously worked as a polling clerk, I can easily see such a mistake happening. In European elections (and Dail elections for UK citizens) some non-Irish citizens can vote. However, in referendums, only Irish citizens can vote. I can easily see a situation where a polling clerk could misunderstand this as only Irish nationals.

People who are not eligible to vote on referendums can often be on the electoral register and when the clerk asked for ID and saw place of birth as being outside Ireland, alarm bells could have (incorrectly) start ringing.

An easy mistake to happen and, I'm sure, no malicious intent

that's hardly news and it's ridiculous to suggest that there was some policty to discourage non-nationals to vote.

it was obviously just an admin glitch where the polling clerk thought that it was only Irish nationals (rather than Irish citizens who could vote on a referendum) - an easy mistake for anyone to make surely.

Well, not really an easy mistake assuming that the person in question was on the electoral roll.

And she is an Irish citizen and an Irish national – what is the distinction that is being drawn here between these two statuses?

[Ben]

the article suggests that this person was a naturalised citizen and not a national.

You have still not explained on what you feel is the difference between and Irish citizen and and Irish national.

Haing previously worked as a polling clerk, I can easily see such a mistake happening. In European elections (and Dail elections for UK citizens) some non-Irish citizens can vote. However, in referendums, only Irish citizens can vote. I can easily see a situation where a polling clerk could misunderstand this as only Irish nationals.

People who are not eligible to vote on referendums can often be on the electoral register and when the clerk asked for ID and saw place of birth as being outside Ireland, alarm bells could have (incorrectly) start ringing.

Place of birth is irrelevant. A person who is an Irish citizen, regardless of how they may have acquired Irish citizenship, has equal voting rights with all other Irish citizens.

Could you please elaborate on this distinction you keep insinuating, between an Irish citizen and an Irish national?

[kevo]

i completely agree that an Irish citizen and an Irish national have equal voting rights in a referendum - my point was just that there was no anti-foreigner feeling here.

i'm using the term "Irish national" as distinguishing someone who was born in Ireland from someone who has acquired citizenship through naturalisation. An academic point really, as my point is that there was no beloved/conspiracy behind this admin error.

the article suggests that this person was a naturalised citizen and not a national.

You have still not explained on what you feel is the difference between and Irish citizen and and Irish national.

Haing previously worked as a polling clerk, I can easily see such a mistake happening. In European elections (and Dail elections for UK citizens) some non-Irish citizens can vote. However, in referendums, only Irish citizens can vote. I can easily see a situation where a polling clerk could misunderstand this as only Irish nationals.

People who are not eligible to vote on referendums can often be on the electoral register and when the clerk asked for ID and saw place of birth as being outside Ireland, alarm bells could have (incorrectly) start ringing.

Place of birth is irrelevant. A person who is an Irish citizen, regardless of how they may have acquired Irish citizenship, has equal voting rights with all other Irish citizens.

Could you please elaborate on this distinction you keep insinuating, between an Irish citizen and an Irish national?

[Christophe]

I think that the distinction you are drawing is really between Irish citizens (or nationals) and Irish residents, since some non-Irish citizens who are resident in Ireland can vote in various types of elections.

[kevo]

I think that the distinction you are drawing is really between Irish citizens (or nationals) and Irish residents, since some non-Irish citizens who are resident in Ireland can vote in various types of elections.

no, im not

there is no distinction between an Irish national (somebody born in Ireland - I may be using the incorrect term) or an Irish citizen in terms of voting rights whatsoever.

i'm just saying that the polling clerk obviously thought that there was a difference.

[kevo]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_d ... itizenship

[Christophe]

I don't think that answer gives a generally recognised definition of "national"... There is no such thing, for example, as "English nationality".

[kevo]

I don't think that answer gives a generally recognised definition of "national"... There is no such thing, for example, as "English nationality".

there probably is no exact legal definition of nationality, maybe a lot of case law there to explain it.

the point is somebody made a simple mistake interpreting who could vote in a referendum.

[JAJ]

I don't think that answer gives a generally recognised definition of "national"... There is no such thing, for example, as "English nationality".

And it is also wrong to suggest that someone is a "national" of a country simply by being born there. Often this is not the case.

[astartes]

it was obviously just an admin glitch where the polling clerk thought that it was only Irish nationals (rather than Irish citizens who could vote on a referendum) - an easy mistake for anyone to make surely.

You are grossly incorrect. Such a mistake is unacceptable coming from a polling clerk involved in a EU referendum. Polling clerks are supposed to be instructed about this by the local polling agent (at least that's what happens in most EU countries). A clerk who makes such a mistake in a EU referendum is grossly incompetent. That's unacceptable in a civilized country.

"passport and evidence that she was on the electoral register" constitute absolute certification of the right to vote in EU referenda according to EU law.

the article suggests that this person was a naturalised citizen and not a national.

She clearly was an Irish citizen, so according to EU law she has an absolute right to vote on EU referenda in Ireland. End of story.

A polling clerk thinking otherwise is not only massively incompetent, but very likely a dearly beloved chauvinist as well -- the fact that Shalini Sinha isn't "white" obviously played a role. I wonder why you are trying to minimize her perfectly justified complaint. What is your agenda ?

May I ask what makes "somebody born in Ireland" so special in your eyes ? What if "somebody born in Ireland" left the country one month after she/he was born because her parents emigrated ? Is that person still entitled to special rights in your eyes ?

For your information, there is no legal difference whatsoever between a "naturalized citizen" and a "citizen by birth". That's a basic principle of international law, which you seem to be quite unaware of.

Funny how many Irish government workers don't have the slightest idea about notions which are clear to any high-school graduate in most European countries. I have a feeling that the disastrous state of the Irish education system has something to do with that. No wonder that so many Irish people think that the EU exists only for the purpose of being milked and exploited.