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ref letter with no details of duties and responsibilites

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kcr
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ref letter with no details of duties and responsibilites

Post by kcr » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:45 am

I have been working since the last 5 years in the same company and it is a govt. of India undertaking.I contacted the Personal department of my region for work experience letter and to my disappointment ,i have been informed that it is against rules to issue a refrence letter indicating complete details of my work and reponsibilities. The only letter they can give me will only show my tenure and job title and at the most that it is a graduate level and specialist job.
It is devastating to know that after having put in almost 5 years of my career,hard work,I cannot be given a reference letter showing my job duties and resposibilities because of rules.Could i please get some guidance in this regard? How am I supposed to provide evidence without getting any reference letter from the company?Has anyone from India working in a government department experienced such problem?I request members of this forum to advise me.

bani
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Re: ref letter with no details of duties and responsibilites

Post by bani » Thu Jan 20, 2005 11:17 am

hi kcr, the detailed duties and responsibilities are essential. can you get your direct superior or someone else who knows you well at work (instead of personnel dept) to write you this letter? as long as it is on official letterhead and states the person's position it is ok.

kcr
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Re: ref letter with no details of duties and responsibilites

Post by kcr » Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:00 pm

bani wrote:hi kcr, the detailed duties and responsibilities are essential. can you get your direct superior or someone else who knows you well at work (instead of personnel dept) to write you this letter? as long as it is on official letterhead and states the person's position it is ok.
hi bani,
thank you for your reply.
i tried my best to convince them to give the reference letter showing my duties and responsibilities, nothing more.All the rest of my documents are ready and i was pretty sure i would get the reference letter.Even though my direct superior knows my work and personally appreciates it and although he is willing to give me a personal letter,he has told me in clear terms that it would be risky for him to give a reference letter on company letter head as it is against rules to give such a letter.Same was the reply from the personal department,all they can give is a service letter stating my tenure and job title and at the most add that it is a graduate level and specialist job.I dont know what are the rules clearly and not sure if any such rule does exist.Is there really any such rule in government organisations?

baskey
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Post by baskey » Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:08 pm

Hi Kcr,

I think get a service letter from personal dept in a letter head and attach a detailed job responsibilities from your superior as a annexture. This way HO can understand. Also attach your employment letter, promotion letter as a additional proof. If you could find job advertisement for the similar position by your company, which may also add further weightage to your claim.

Good luck,

Baskey

bs
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ref letter from your public sector employer

Post by bs » Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:25 pm

Do you have some sort of published record of detailed job descriptions that matches with your job title? If yes, you can send that. Do you have any recent advertisement from your present employer that matches with your job title? Public sector organisations regularly advertise for common job titles. Basic idea is to get any sort of reference (direct or indirect) from your employer. Do they have website with a career (or vacancies) section? If yes, try to lookout for job profile that matches yours. Try someone working in your organisation on a personal level to guide you in this regard. By the way, does your appointment letter mention any reference to job profile? Do you have any annual or periodical review report or something like this?

Best of luck. Dont give up.

kcr
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Post by kcr » Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:34 pm

baskey wrote:Hi Kcr,

I think get a service letter from personal dept in a letter head and attach a detailed job responsibilities from your superior as a annexture. This way HO can understand. Also attach your employment letter, promotion letter as a additional proof. If you could find job advertisement for the similar position by your company, which may also add further weightage to your claim.

Good luck,

Baskey
thank you so much baskey..your words have given me some hope.I have the employment letter,promotion letter also ,but my superior is willing to give me only a personal letter and not on the company letter head.I believe personal references are not considered by the hsmp team. If there is no other alternative then i think i should do as per your advice.

kcr
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Re: ref letter from your public sector employer

Post by kcr » Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:47 pm

bs wrote:Do you have some sort of published record of detailed job descriptions that matches with your job title? If yes, you can send that. Do you have any recent advertisement from your present employer that matches with your job title? Public sector organisations regularly advertise for common job titles. Basic idea is to get any sort of reference (direct or indirect) from your employer. Do they have website with a career (or vacancies) section? If yes, try to lookout for job profile that matches yours. Try someone working in your organisation on a personal level to guide you in this regard. By the way, does your appointment letter mention any reference to job profile? Do you have any annual or periodical review report or something like this?

Best of luck. Dont give up.
Thank you bs for your kind words..I am not going to give up,this issue has only given me more determination to go ahead with my plans,more so because i had toiled all these years for nothing except job security.I can get advertisements for the post but the only help that might provide would be the vacanices available and the procedure of selection.They do have a website but nothing much about the job profiles and my appointment,promotion letter only mentions my jobtitle,place of posting,there is no reference to any responsibilites.I will search for everything that is available anywhere.All i can do is give references of similair jobs in other private sector companies.But i am not sure if that might be of any help
I will gather everything that could be useful . thank you again.

zeke
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Post by zeke » Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:39 pm

Dear kcr,

Please accept my sympathies on having an uncooperative employer. However, you are getting wonderful support on the boards in the form of very creative "brainstorming" from your immigrationboards colleagues!

Yours is a governmental job. Maybe there is an elected official who has jurisdiction over your organization and who can advocate for you. After all, there are many many people from your country who are applying for HSMP -- just observe posts on immigrationboards.com--so your frustrating problem is one which could potentially be of interest to many of the official's constituents.

I do understand that the governmental organization is your current employer, and that getting an elected official (or maybe another advocate in the system -- are you part of a union or is there an employee advocate or grievance procedure?) may create conflict between you and the employer...but you were hoping to leave the country anyway, right? But still, I am not encouraging you to jepordize your employment in any way...only you can decide what risks to take...

Can you get in writing your organization's policy prohibiting the writing of duties and responsibilities? I would think that such a document would be essential to your application because you may have to show your duties and responsibilites in unusual ways, such as some of the suggestions made by our colleagues here.

Do you have a university degree? Is there a trade or professional organization that represents your profession or job? A union? If so, maybe a representative of the university or the professional organization or union could write you a letter on their letterhead which discusses typical duties/responsibilities for your job title, for your industry or area of expertise and for someone with your educational background, etc. What are industry standards for duties and responsibilites, if you are in a particular "industry"? (You yourself may want to offer a pre-written draft to these people -- which they would use only if they approved of its content. That way, you have at least some influence on assuring that the letter has the right kind and amount of information in it for HSMP purposes). OR maybe you could write a letter describing duties and reponsibilities and have one of the aforementioned people write a letterhead letter confirming what you have written.

Maybe you know other people doing work similar to yours either in your organization or similar organizaitons. If so, maybe you could write your own detailed "duties and responsibilites" letter, and these other people doing work similar to yours could swear in an affidavit confirming that what you have written is the truth. (In my country, such an affidavit can be sworn to in front of a notary public, who charges a nominal fee for the service). For example, someone you work with (not a supervisor or superior) who has observed your work and is familiar with some of your day to day activities could write a letter on his personal letterhead and/or swear in an affidavit that he has observed you performing the duties, responsibilities and activities that you have described in your letter. If you could get more than one co-worker to do this, so much the better. That, along with a copy of the organization's policy against providing writtten information about duties and responsiblities, may suffice for the HSMP evaluation team, I imagine.

When you were first hired, and when they give you a yearly performance evaluation, don't they give you a written list of duties and responsibilities?

Is the organization prohibited from providing duties and responsibilites information because of security or confidentiality reasons? if so, maybe your employer would be willing to explain that in a letter and could also say in the letter that your position does meet the HSMP criteria, according to their understanding of the criteria...
Be Well!

zeke
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Post by zeke » Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:43 pm

See also my post here:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewto ... 29a7596aca

There may be some further thoughts in it that you might find helpful.

Keep us posted on your progress, kcr.
Be Well!

bani
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Re: ref letter from your public sector employer

Post by bani » Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:52 pm

Do include the personal letter from your boss if he is willing to put your detailed duties and responsibilities. Also include that company policy forbids him from putting it on official letterhead, however he has been with the company __ no. of years and your supervisor for __ no. of years. Maybe you can get your personnel dept. letter to include his name.

Also, you would need to submit a heirarchy chart so start working on that as well.

Good luck! There's always a way to do it without breaking company policy. Even if you have to submit many papers instead of 1 letter, just don't give up :).

baskey
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Post by baskey » Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:59 pm

kcr wrote: but my superior is willing to give me only a personal letter and not on the company letter head.I believe personal references are not considered by the hsmp team. If there is no other alternative then i think i should do as per your advice.
Kcr,

There is no question of personal letter arises when your boss gives you a reference letter. only thing, it is on plain paper instead of company letter head. Also you are attaching rest of the documents like service certificate, appointment letter etc.. in a letter headed paper. HO cann't refuse your experience profile since because your boss given it on a plain paper. MAXIMUM THEY MAY PHONE YOUR BOSS OR COMPANY to confirm its originality. But it is a rare one.

So i dont think, you will be declined because of this issue. Be confident. Try to get in a letter headed papar, if not i personally feel you will not be turned negative for this issue.

may be others can suggest better ideas.

Regards,

Baskey

Rog
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Post by Rog » Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:28 pm

Dear KCR

you are in a secure govt job. Do consider all aspects before leaving the job and coming to the unknown unless you are an IT person

Developer
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Post by Developer » Thu Jan 20, 2005 4:53 pm

I agree with Rog,

At the end of the day, you know more money here but again ALMOST everything that you can from this money could be provided by gov. and more over you get to stay near your family and friends....

Think about what you gonna lose also.....

kcr
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Post by kcr » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:07 pm

Dear friends,
I am deeply touched by the support and the encouragement you all have given me.I will go through these messages a few more times and see if i can try to do something on those lines suggested by everyone and let you all know about it when i am ready with it.Thank you all once again

kcr
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Post by kcr » Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:50 pm

Rog wrote:Dear KCR

you are in a secure govt job. Do consider all aspects before leaving the job and coming to the unknown unless you are an IT person
Dear Rog and Developer

I can understand what you mean by and i had thought about it before i made my decision.Believe me, noone would want to leave his/her motherland,family,friends and go and live in a new place and a new culture without strong reasons.In my case money is definitely one of the reasons.Govt.jobs in India are secure but the pay scales are very low,infact less than half that in the private sector in a job of similar nature in the IT field and to add to that there are other issues which would not be proper for me to discuss.
My own case of not being able to get a reference letter inspite of running from pillar to post has only given me more reason to quit even if i dont make it through the HSMP.
Be Well My friends

kcr
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:44 am

Post by kcr » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:06 pm

zeke wrote:Dear kcr,

Is the organization prohibited from providing duties and responsibilites information because of security or confidentiality reasons? if so, maybe your employer would be willing to explain that in a letter and could also say in the letter that your position does meet the HSMP criteria, according to their understanding of the criteria...
Dear Zeke,
Thank you very much.You have given me a lot of new ways to tackle this problem of mine.My only concern is it might make my claim for specialist experience weak,because of the reference letter not coming directly from the employer.
I am in the IT field and that rules out any concerns of security or confidentiality reasons.The only reason i can guess is that the company may not want to lose highly qualified persons from the IT side, as chances for that to happen are a lot, given the huge pay differences between the govt and the private sector

Be Well

zeke
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Post by zeke » Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:32 pm

Dear kcr,

Our friends Rog and Developer are correct in reminding us to consider carefully the very major decision to relocate to the UK under HSMP. There are some HSMP holders who report a difficult time of it in the UK.

You may want to read the posts of myself and others at:

http://www.immigrationboards.com/viewtopic.php?t=2239

Please keep in mind that we are not discouraging you from coming to the UK under HSMP....but we/I do believe in fully informed decisionmaking... 8)

By the way, providing proof of your specialist role through the means that we have "brainstormed" for you here is no weaker or stronger than providing proof of your graduate level experience through some of the approaches we have suggested. This is because we are suggesting that you simply (or, more correctly, not so simply! :cry: ) provide alternate ways of describing your duties, responsibilites, skills and knowledge and of providing verification of these (i.e., through a representative of your university or professional organization or through co-workers, for example). I think that the key for the specialist position is the skills and knowledge necessary for the job: are they rare or very specialized or unique in your line of work or industry or organization in some way? You can provide proof of that in the same way/s we have suggested that you provide proof of your graduate level standing in your posiiton.
Be Well!

kcr
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Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 6:44 am

Post by kcr » Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:19 am

thank you all

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