Citizenship application based on marriage to Irish Citizen

[Sulla]

I am an Irish citizen and I want to bring my Chinese wife to Ireland in order to allow her to naturalize as an Irish citizen and obtain an Irish passport. Our circumstances are perhaps a little bit different from those that people normally report, so I would appreciate any advice that can be offered.

My wife and I are currently MM2H residents of Malaysia, but we divide our time traveling around, usually spending 1-3 months in each nation. We have homes in most of the places that we venture to and we enjoy the lifestyle. Neither of us really wants to give it up. However, my wife holding a Chinese passport (she also has a Turkish one but that is only a little better) is a major source of inconvenience for us. Routinely, she has to go through a great deal of visa hassle whenever we want to go to Europe, North America, the antipodes, or even places like Singapore or Japan. My wife hates this and badly wants to obtain a Tier A passport that will make travel smoother and also make her feel more connected to Europe.

The plan I have is to take my wife to Ireland and obtain permission to reside in the state on the basis on marriage to an Irish national. I own a couple of apartments in central Dublin and she can live in one. In terms of what she is going to do for the 3-4 years of required residence, our plan is for her to study a Phd or a series of master's degrees at Trinity. She was given previous offers for courses already by the university, so I know acceptance will not be an issue. I cannot take her to Ireland on a student visa, as that will not count towards reckonable residence. Does anyone know if she will be permitted to study based upon a visa status that depends on marriage to an Irish citizen?

Another issue that we have relates to me. I am happy to accompany her to Ireland and visit several times per year - up to a limit of 138 days each year. This is for tax purposes, as Ireland will deem a person tax resident if he/she resides in the state for over 280 days per year in a 2 year period. I cannot allow myself to become tax resident in Ireland or domiciled there. My wife will obviously have to become tax resident, but that is manageable as we will structure things so that she will have little / no income while in Ireland. We will allocate a lump sum to cover her expenses at the beginning of her residency. She will not be working in Ireland nor will she be using the benefits system. I am aware that one stipulation of naturalization through marriage in Ireland is that we should be living together as a couple. Also various documents pertaining to my status will need to be submitted as part of her application such as bank statements, utility bills,tax and employment information. If I am not tax resident in the state and do not work in Ireland, would this be a problem for her application to be successful? Would my residence of ≤138 days per annum be sufficient to show we are living together? I can provide bank statements from an Irish bank and utility bills easily enough. I also have tax receipts from Irish revenue, but these pertain to tax on foreign landlord income as I do not live in the state.

In anticipation of any questions, our relationship is genuine and we have been married for 15 years. Thank you for any advice you can provide.

[littlerr]

I am an Irish citizen and I want to bring my Chinese wife to Ireland in order to allow her to naturalize as an Irish citizen and obtain an Irish passport. Our circumstances are perhaps a little bit different from those that people normally report, so I would appreciate any advice that can be offered.

My wife and I are currently MM2H residents of Malaysia, but we divide our time traveling around, usually spending 1-3 months in each nation. We have homes in most of the places that we venture to and we enjoy the lifestyle. Neither of us really wants to give it up. However, my wife holding a Chinese passport (she also has a Turkish one but that is only a little better) is a major source of inconvenience for us. Routinely, she has to go through a great deal of visa hassle whenever we want to go to Europe, North America, the antipodes, or even places like Singapore or Japan. My wife hates this and badly wants to obtain a Tier A passport that will make travel smoother and also make her feel more connected to Europe.

The plan I have is to take my wife to Ireland and obtain permission to reside in the state on the basis on marriage to an Irish national. I own a couple of apartments in central Dublin and she can live in one. In terms of what she is going to do for the 3-4 years of required residence, our plan is for her to study a Phd or a series of master's degrees at Trinity. She was given previous offers for courses already by the university, so I know acceptance will not be an issue. I cannot take her to Ireland on a student visa, as that will not count towards reckonable residence. Does anyone know if she will be permitted to study based upon a visa status that depends on marriage to an Irish citizen?

Another issue that we have relates to me. I am happy to accompany her to Ireland and visit several times per year - up to a limit of 138 days each year. This is for tax purposes, as Ireland will deem a person tax resident if he/she resides in the state for over 280 days per year in a 2 year period. I cannot allow myself to become tax resident in Ireland or domiciled there. My wife will obviously have to become tax resident, but that is manageable as we will structure things so that she will have little / no income while in Ireland. We will allocate a lump sum to cover her expenses at the beginning of her residency. She will not be working in Ireland nor will she be using the benefits system. I am aware that one stipulation of naturalization through marriage in Ireland is that we should be living together as a couple. Also various documents pertaining to my status will need to be submitted as part of her application such as bank statements, utility bills,tax and employment information. If I am not tax resident in the state and do not work in Ireland, would this be a problem for her application to be successful? Would my residence of ≤138 days per annum be sufficient to show we are living together? I can provide bank statements from an Irish bank and utility bills easily enough. I also have tax receipts from Irish revenue, but these pertain to tax on foreign landlord income as I do not live in the state.

In anticipation of any questions, our relationship is genuine and we have been married for 15 years. Thank you for any advice you can provide.

Tell me about the pain for applying for visas

It is not really a workable plan I’m afraid. Your wife can obtain a Stamp 4 on the basis of being a spouse of an Irish citizen. However, you will need to physically live with her together (therefore becoming a tax resident here). You may not find any difficulty travelling around with the Irish passport, but when it gets to the stage where your wife applies for naturalisation on the basis of being the spouse of an Irish citizen, you would have to submit your proofs of living here with her, and the immigration office will obtain a copy of your travel history which will see that you are mostly out of the country. She may also get in trouble renewing her Stamp 4 which needs to be done annually for the first two years and then every two years after that. This is also the only permitted scenario to naturalise based on a full time study (normally for non EU students study visas are excluded from the naturalisation calculator).

Your best bet would be getting her to apply for a full time job on her own basis if you are not going to stay in Ireland with her.

[Sulla]

Tell me about the pain for applying for visas

It is not really a workable plan I’m afraid. Your wife can obtain a Stamp 4 on the basis of being a spouse of an Irish citizen. However, you will need to physically live with her together (therefore becoming a tax resident here). You may not find any difficulty travelling around with the Irish passport, but when it gets to the stage where your wife applies for naturalisation on the basis of being the spouse of an Irish citizen, you would have to submit your proofs of living here with her, and the immigration office will obtain a copy of your travel history which will see that you are mostly out of the country.

Thanks for the swift reply.

Yes, the Chinese passport is not very strong when it comes to visa free access. It really is the bane of our lives. At least with the Turkish passport she can now get into the more advanced Asian economies and South America visa free. It's been a small step up for her. However, Europe is her main target.

Are there a certain number of days per year that we have to spend together in Ireland to qualify as living together in DOJ terms? I think 138 per year is not insubstantial. A lot of people who travel overseas for business regularly might well struggle to reach that figure.

I have looked into a number of pathways leading to Irish citizenship via naturalization including the REIT based IIP route. However,they all just take too long. The marriage route is far faster.

[littlerr]

Thanks for the swift reply.

Yes, the Chinese passport is not very strong when it comes to visa free access. It really is the bane of our lives. At least with the Turkish passport she can now get into the more advanced Asian economies and South America visa free. It's been a small step up for her. However, Europe is her main target.

Are there a certain number of days per year that we have to spend together in Ireland to qualify as living together in DOJ terms? I think 138 per year is not insubstantial. A lot of people who travel overseas for business regularly might well struggle to reach that figure.

I have looked into a number of pathways leading to Irish citizenship via naturalization including the REIT based IIP route. However,they all just take too long. The marriage route is far faster.

INIS defines the conditions of Stamp 4 (spouse of Irish national) as:
1. there is genuine evidence of a valid and genuine marriage/civil partnership, and
2. they are of joint residence.

I don't know if there's any legal definition on "joint residence", but if I were the immigration officer, I'd expect that both of you should be at least ordinarily resident, otherwise you are not "residing" in Ireland.

[Sulla]

INIS defines the conditions of Stamp 4 (spouse of Irish national) as:
1. there is genuine evidence of a valid and genuine marriage/civil partnership, and
2. they are of joint residence.

I don't know if there's any legal definition on "joint residence", but if I were the immigration officer, I'd expect that both of you should be at least ordinarily resident, otherwise you are not "residing" in Ireland.

Alright. I am going to write to them and also contact some immigration lawyers to try to pin down exactly what "joint residence" means. It may be that a more lenient interpretation pertains. I certainly hope so.

If that does not pan out, an alternative strategy that I think would be viable would be for us to establish an address together in Northern Ireland. As far as I know, this would also allow her to qualify for citizenship in the Irish Republic through married residence with an Irish citizen. Is that correct?
I have read elsewhere that this is possible under the GFA.

The UK (where I am also a citizen, but not domiciled - I'm domiciled in Malaysia), has very favorable Non-domiciled residence laws. These would allow me to live with her for the entire period In NI if necessary without becoming liable to UK taxes on anything except UK earnings or remittances to the UK. I can accept that as my UK income is low enough to make that bearable. As long as I can obviate taxes on global income, I will be happy.

Once more, thank you for your kind and timely assistance.

[littlerr]

If that does not pan out, an alternative strategy that I think would be viable would be for us to establish an address together in Northern Ireland. As far as I know, this would also allow her to qualify for citizenship in the Irish Republic through married residence with an Irish citizen. Is that correct?
I have read elsewhere that this is possible under the GFA.

The UK (where I am also a citizen, but not domiciled - I'm domiciled in Malaysia), has very favorable Non-domiciled residence laws. These would allow me to live with her for the entire period In NI if necessary without becoming liable to UK taxes on anything except UK earnings or remittances to the UK. I can accept that as my UK income is low enough to make that bearable. As long as I can obviate taxes on global income, I will be happy.

Once more, thank you for your kind and timely assistance.

Yes you can apply for Irish citizenship if you live in NI.
I don't have any knowledge about UK immigration but I hope things work out for you.

[water_tank1]

Hi all

I spoke to a nice lady in the citizenship division today.

She answered all my question that I asked on this thread.

Its irrelevant when I became an Irish citizen to apply for citizenship for my non EU spouse who is on stamp 4 eufam ( I am a dual passport holder UK and ireland).

She said it doesn't matter if its stamp 4 or stamp 4 eufam it's still reasonable residence either way and also if all of the conditions set out on the application are met then there should be no issue with applying.

Hope this bit of info helps someone in the future.

[water_tank1]

So I sent my application off and today they returned my wife's passport back with letter saying they will issue a letter and receipt in due course. Application sent and passport return took a total of five days.

I wasnt expecting to see my wifes passport for a month or so due to the backlog of new applications.

[KEVAND]

Hi all

I spoke to a nice lady in the citizenship division today.

She answered all my question that I asked on this thread.

Its irrelevant when I became an Irish citizen to apply for citizenship for my non EU spouse who is on stamp 4 eufam ( I am a dual passport holder UK and ireland).

She said it doesn't matter if its stamp 4 or stamp 4 eufam it's still reasonable residence either way and also if all of the conditions set out on the application are met then there should be no issue with applying.

Hope this bit of info helps someone in the future.

Hi, I am in a similar position to yourself. When you spoke to the nice lady, did she clarify if you need to live in Ireland with your wife to process her application?

Thanks
Kev

[water_tank1]

Hi Kev,

When I spoke to this lady she simply asked me where I was residing and my answer was Ireland and that was it regarding where we lived.

Cheers!

Hi all

I spoke to a nice lady in the citizenship division today.

She answered all my question that I asked on this thread.

Its irrelevant when I became an Irish citizen to apply for citizenship for my non EU spouse who is on stamp 4 eufam ( I am a dual passport holder UK and ireland).

She said it doesn't matter if its stamp 4 or stamp 4 eufam it's still reasonable residence either way and also if all of the conditions set out on the application are met then there should be no issue with applying.

Hope this bit of info helps someone in the future.

Hi, I am in a similar position to yourself. When you spoke to the nice lady, did she clarify if you need to live in Ireland with your wife to process her application?

Thanks
Kev

[KEVAND]

Thanks for the prompt answer, cheers