PCN and ILR

[Taz20]

Hi,
I have been following guidelines from this forum and found them very helpful.
This is my first post.
I am going to apply for ILR on Set (LR) online form.
I got one Speed awareness course which I have completed in the last week. I can understand that I need to declare it as it is an alternative to the FPN. Am I correct?
I don't have any penalty points on my Driving licence. I have some PCNs( parking and bus lane)issued by the local council and paid them on time nothing outstanding. Should I have to disclose them as well? If so, wouldn't it make my application complex if they are not required ? I found in this forum that there is no specific requirement to declare PCNs but the FAQ was published in 2013..is there any changes since then?
Please I urgently need help.
Thanks

[seagul]

Hi,
I have been following guidelines from this forum and found them very helpful.
This is my first post.
I am going to apply for ILR on Set (LR) online form.
I got one Speed awareness course which I have completed in the last week. I can understand that I need to declare it as it is an alternative to the FPN. Am I correct?
I don't have any penalty points on my Driving licence. I have some PCNs( parking and bus lane)issued by the local council and paid them on time nothing outstanding. Should I have to disclose them as well? If so, wouldn't it make my application complex if they are not required ? I found in this forum that there is no specific requirement to declare PCNs but the FAQ was published in 2013..is there any changes since then?
Please I urgently need help.
Thanks

For immigration purpose that need to be ideally disclosed, albeit due to having attended the course you would remain be unscathed.

[zimba]

People are talking rubbish. PCNs do not need to be declared and have no effect on your application. Speed awareness course does not need to be declared. I suggest to go and familiarise yourself with the general grounds for refusal under the rules instead

[seagul]

Hi,
I have been following guidelines from this forum and found them very helpful.
This is my first post.
I am going to apply for ILR on Set (LR) online form.
I got one Speed awareness course which I have completed in the last week. I can understand that I need to declare it as it is an alternative to the FPN. Am I correct?
I don't have any penalty points on my Driving licence. I have some PCNs( parking and bus lane)issued by the local council and paid them on time nothing outstanding. Should I have to disclose them as well? If so, wouldn't it make my application complex if they are not required ? I found in this forum that there is no specific requirement to declare PCNs but the FAQ was published in 2013..is there any changes since then?
Please I urgently need help.
Thanks

For immigration purpose that need to be ideally disclosed, albeit due to having attended the course you would remain be unscathed.

That opinion is only in relation to FPN instead a PCN about which zillion times priorly being said to have no issue at all.

[seagul]

Also at the end of this speed awareness course, the instructor explicitly tell what to do next and who should be informed to or who don't need to.

[Taz20]

Thanks Zimba and Seagul.
I also agree with Zimba that PCN doesn't need to declare but I found this in gov.uk website ( not sure it is still valid)

"""This page tells you how to consider an application from someone who has or has had a
fixed penalty notice.
A way of the criminal justice system disposing of fairly minor offences without the need fora
person to attend court is to issue a:
• fixed penalty notice (FPN)
• penalty charge notice (PCN), or
• penalty notice for disorder (PND).
Receiving one does not form part of a person’s criminal record as there is no admission of
guilt. You must disregard them for the purposes of checking if they amount to a conviction
for an offence. However you must be aware of the exceptions, as follows.
• There are criminal proceedings for failure to pay and the individual receives a more
serious penalty as a result. The new penalty imposed must be the starting point for
considering if the applicant is refused within a different refusal category. Or
• The person has multiple penalty notices, or one or more penalty notices alongside
other non-custodial sentences, particularly over a short period of time. You must
consider if, additionally or alternatively, the character, conduct and associations
provisions apply.
For further information, see related links:
• Character, conduct or associations
• Penalty notices for disorder."""""
I found this in General grounds for refusal Section 1 – version 29.0 Published for Home Office staff on 11 January 2018.
On the other hand in Set(LR) visa application form published in 9/2018 said not to include parking fine or FPN( although this form is not valid anymore I believe).
I couldn't find any recent information regarding this in gov.uk website.
This really make me confused.
Please provide your suggestions .

[seagul]

But simply declare your FPN for which you had attended the course, same as said earlier. Perhaps I had pinned the whole contents of the previous post that's why the previous poster couldn't picked it up despite had indicated about the course which is only inherited with FPN instead PCN. Also I haven't said anything about declaring the course rather only said to declare FPN which was escaped by virtue of this course. Hope it is all clear now.

[zimba]

The guide you quoted is very clear that both PCNs and FPNs are disregarded. The exception is having other non-custodial sentences (convictions) ILR is ONLY AND ONLY affected if you have a recordable conviction in the last 24 months

[seagul]

Regarded or disregarded something is slightly different things because what we are mainly focusing is that, should we declare FPN or not wherever being asked then the most number of audience will unanimously say "yes" only for a safe side despite knowing its zero affect. That's it.

[Taz20]

Thank you very much.
But before this it was saying
"The person has multiple penalty notices"
And also why this section is under
This guidance is based on the Immigration Rules
General grounds for refusal
Non-custodial sentences: fixed penalty notices

Sorry if I am making this complicated
Also if I don't declare the PCNs will HO find it Out? If so how? I called council to find my PCNs but they want reg number of my car or post code.
Please help me

[seagul]

Also if I don't declare the PCNs will HO find it

No provided you have/have been clearing the fine and no further escalations have been triggered.

[zimba]

Thank you very much.
But before this it was saying
"The person has multiple penalty notices"
And also why this section is under
This guidance is based on the Immigration Rules
General grounds for refusal
Non-custodial sentences: fixed penalty notices

Sorry if I am making this complicated
Also if I don't declare the PCNs will HO find it Out? If so how? I called council to find my PCNs but they want reg number of my car or post code.
Please help me

PCNs are not even issued under your name. You are overthinking this way too much.

Regarded or disregarded something is slightly different things because what we are mainly focusing is that, should we declare FPN or not wherever being asked then the most number of audience will unanimously say "yes" only for a safe side despite knowing its zero affect. That's it.

What people believe here is irrelevant. Only convictions have to be declared. An FPN is NOT a conviction.
There is no such thing as 'safe side', what you perceive about a case is also not important. You either qualify as per rules for ILR or you do not. The rules are clear that ONLY recordable offences have any effect on ILR. The immigration rules trump any guide as well. The advice should be strictly based on the rules

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration ... or-refusal

[Taz20]

Thanks everyone for your reply.
I need urgent help. As you advised, I will disclose speed awareness course but where ? If I want to disclose it in the cover letter not mention it in the application form will it be a problem? I mean deception ?
Anybody experienced the same situation please let me khow your experience.
Thanks

[Taz20]

Thanks everyone for your reply.
I need urgent help. As you advised, I will disclose speed awareness course but where ? If I want to disclose it in the cover letter not mention it in the application form will it be a problem? I mean deception ?
Anybody experienced the same situation please let me khow your experience.
Thanks

Please Zimba and other experienced members , I really need help.
Thanks

[zimba]

Thanks everyone for your reply.
I need urgent help. As you advised, I will disclose speed awareness course but where ? If I want to disclose it in the cover letter not mention it in the application form will it be a problem? I mean deception ?
Anybody experienced the same situation please let me khow your experience.
Thanks

As I said you do not need to disclose it. ONLY convictions must be disclosed. There is no deception, stop being paranoid. I cannot repeat myself over and over again

[mkhan83]

Thanks everyone for your reply.
I need urgent help. As you advised, I will disclose speed awareness course but where ? If I want to disclose it in the cover letter not mention it in the application form will it be a problem? I mean deception ?
Anybody experienced the same situation please let me khow your experience.
Thanks

As I said you do not need to disclose it. ONLY convictions must be disclosed. There is no deception, stop being paranoid. I cannot repeat myself over and over again

May be it could help you
I took the advice from Zimba in mid of June regarding PCNs.
As per Zimba advice I didn't disclose/mention in my application/cover letter. I successfully got ILR. All PCNs were paid on time. (Note: I didn't challenge any PCN, received a letter of PCN---- Paid it off straight away). Hope it helps you whether to disclose or not

[Taz20]

I totally agree with you and Zimba that PCNs doesn't need to be declared. My question was about Speed awareness course however.
Thank you and Zimba

[zimba]

I totally agree with you and Zimba that PCNs doesn't need to be declared. My question was about Speed awareness course however.
Thank you and Zimba

Same advice applies.

[Taz20]

Dear CULLINAN . . As you said, I am posting it in my own post.. Please reply.
Thank you very much
Please don't take me otherwise..I am sorry if I am bothering you.
I found the following text for general grounds for refusal ver29.0 which includes ILR..that makes me confused

This guidance is based on the Immigration Rules
General grounds for refusal


This page tells you how to consider an application from someone who has or has had a
fixed penalty notice.
A way of the criminal justice system disposing of fairly minor offences without the need fora
person to attend court is to issue a:
• fixed penalty notice (FPN)
• penalty charge notice (PCN), or
• penalty notice for disorder (PND).
Receiving one does not form part of a person’s criminal record as there is no admission of
guilt. You must disregard them for the purposes of checking if they amount to a conviction
for an offence. However you must be aware of the exceptions, as follows.
• There are criminal proceedings for failure to pay and the individual receives a more
serious penalty as a result. The new penalty imposed must be the starting point for
considering if the applicant is refused within a different refusal category. Or
• The person has multiple penalty notices, or one or more penalty notices alongside
other non-custodial sentences, particularly over a short period of time. You must
consider if, additionally or alternatively, the character, conduct and associations
provisions apply.
For further information, see related links:
• Character, conduct or associations

My current leave is on 10 years partner route which will be expired March 2022. It has been granted Sep 2019. However I completed my 10 years lawfully last month with not a single day gap.
My question is if they refuse my ILR for speed awareness course( I know it's unlikely) or any related reason will my current leave would be valid?
Thanks

[zimba]

It is amazing that you keep posting the same thing and repeating that you are 'confused' despite the fact that you have been advised previously. You seem unable to even read what you are quoting from that guide even though I highlighted where your confusion may come from. You do not seem to understand what a non-custodial sentence is under the law.

Also NO, your current visa does not become invalid if your ILR is somehow refused.

The guide you quoted is very clear that both PCNs and FPNs are disregarded. The exception is having other non-custodial sentences (convictions) ILR is ONLY AND ONLY affected if you have a recordable conviction in the last 24 months

The grounds for refusals are covered in Immigration rules part 9: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/immigration ... or-refusal

[Taz20]

Dear Zimba,
This is how I am or in other word this is how I was trained to be whatever.
You are right that Speed Awareness Course doesn't need to be declared but yes there are exeptions because you need to think whether it will be considered as FPN or not.
I found the following guideline while completing my Set(LR) form .. I ticked on the penalty for the driving offence" it was written
" You must tell us fixed penalty notices (e.g. speeding or parking tickets) if you received three or more ........."
I got screenshot but don't know how to upload it here.
In my understanding it means you don' t need to declare Fpn/ pcn/ SAC whatever they are if they are less than 3 in number. Although I believe PCN doesn't need to be declared.
Please note that this guideline is not included in the citizenship application.
This information provides much more confidence for the people who are bit stuck with FPN / PCN/ SAC.
Thank you

[zimba]

I do not see any point in discussing this further. You can do whatever you like to do and follow your own interpretations

[Kbci]

Hi Taz20,

I am in a similar situation to you and am going to apply in the next month. Based on Zimba's advice and a whole lot of others in the board, I have decided that I will not declare the PCNs - mainly because the section appears to be focused on Criminal Offences. Just checking if you have applied? As a matter of interest, how many PCNs did you have?