Husband of EU citizen exercising treaty rights/Italy

[ciaramc]

Hi all,

As you are all probably aware from my previous posts....I'm a EU citizen (Irish), living and working in Italy since 2002, when I met my husband (Moroccan, previously illegal in Italy).

We married in 2006 and applied or a RC(in 2006), him being the spouse of a EU citizen exercising treaty rights. We were turned down (in March 08), due to the fact (they stated this on the refusal) that he had entered Italy many years previously illeally!

We then appealed (also due to the court case against Ireland 25 July 08 )and today after 8 months they have refused his RC not for any reason in particular, but that we had not informed the minister of Interior of our case !!!!! Can you believe it??? I have not heard such nonsense in my life......we can now appeal to another judge!!! But I'm thinking is it worth it....should he go home to his home country and see can we apply from there??? We really don't want to do this as it will not look good that he never received his RC here in Italy and it could affect future applications???

What do you think? Also I have filed a complaint with the EU and received a responce in Sep 08 saying that my complaint was passed on to the relevant authority and since then nothing!

Is there anything else I can do??? Can I bring them to court??? European court???

[charles4u]

Hi all,

As you are all probably aware from my previous posts....I'm a EU citizen (Irish), living and working in Italy since 2002, when I met my husband (Moroccan, previously illegal in Italy).

We married in 2006 and applied or a RC(in 2006), him being the spouse of a EU citizen exercising treaty rights. We were turned down (in March 08), due to the fact (they stated this on the refusal) that he had entered Italy many years previously illeally!

We then appealed (also due to the court case against Ireland 25 July 08 )and today after 8 months they have refused his RC not for any reason in particular, but that we had not informed the minister of Interior of our case !!!!! Can you believe it??? I have not heard such nonsense in my life......we can now appeal to another judge!!! But I'm thinking is it worth it....should he go home to his home country and see can we apply from there??? We really don't want to do this as it will not look good that he never received his RC here in Italy and it could affect future applications???

What do you think? Also I have filed a complaint with the EU and received a responce in Sep 08 saying that my complaint was passed on to the relevant authority and since then nothing!

Is there anything else I can do??? Can I bring them to court??? European court???

To my own view I dont think you will win if you take them to EU court, cus he was there illegally as at the time you got married and also as the time you applied for the residence, In most cases its hard getting a residence permit when that person is currently illegal and also lets say the fact (too much africans in europe with illegal cases) so maybe they are trying to reduce this somehow.

Well I wouldnt know much but I think ur case can only be settled within Italy as his Illegal...try talk to Richard66 cus I think his in Italy and knows much abt this also.

[Richard66]

As mentioned earlier, would it not be better if your husband did return to Morocco together with you and apply for a "visto per familiare al seguito"? You have all the documents, you will have priority in obtaining this, it will be free and cannot be refused.

Was he ever expelled? I do not remember.

What advice do they give you in Tutto S?

As for the refusal, it seems to me to be for formal reasons and not for any legal ones. you should appeal, if it is too risky to return to Morocco. In the end this will be referred to the ECJ and from there it will be pain sailing.

What difference a visa makes! If at least he had entered Italy with a visa! You will notice the law asks for a visa (no matter which), but there is no need for it to be valid when applying for the residence card. This is why My wife had no problems.

[ciaramc]

First of all.....when a Non-Eu marries a EU citizen....they have the same rights as there spouse in accordance with the EU Directive ( Metock case from the European commission).....so it does not matter that he was illegal....of course it was wrong that he was here illegally....but we have been married almost 3 years .....I support us by working full time earning a good salary!!! We have been trying to fix this situation for some time....years actually!!

At the moment the italians are not interpreting the directive correctly...as if he had of married an Italian he would have got his RC!!! So say the immigration authority in Italy!

Thanks for the advise....I have spoken to Richard many times oer the past year!!!

Just lookin for some insight....we don't want him to leave Italy and them being banned from Europe for years! Some just looking for some reliable advise....as this board has always been helpful to me in the past!! Even though I seen to be asking the same question the last 3 years almost!!

Thanks all

[ciaramc]

Thanks Richard.....

Yes he had been given an explusion order....but of course Italy being Italy they never followed through .....and we were allowed to marry!

I have been told on tutto that we should win the ricorso....it is the wait everything is slower in Italy ....he can't work we can't travel its a nightmare....another xmas I will miss with my family because my husband can't travel!! Of course you are ight....but he was young and stupid......!

[Richard66]

Yes, it is the expulsion order that it holding things back (not that they will ever admit that.) Very possibly they believe it to be a marriage of convenience, though, after 3 years...

I know of a case of a Maroccan marying justr in order to "regularise" his situation. Something terrible. And they did give him a residence card!

As for your family: even if he has an Italian Residence Card he will still need a visa to go to Ireland, but that is another battle.

[charles4u]

Well maybe you guys are right, but am just saying on the possible reasons of why he was refused and we all see they keep delaying and time is passing by..they make application and decisions that sometimes will implicate people for yrs.

Ur case ..u guys are married I guess for couple of yrs and he couldnt get the residence and u guys have to gone to court but they still refused...How long will all this take? its so funny with the things around here when it comes to applications and papers. But anyway certainly going back to Morocco will not be a good idea as he might be banned from entrying again or refuse is visa all due to his past record....going to court will just waste more time which am sure might affect your relationship.

[Ben]

ciaramc,

There is absolutely nothing stopping you and your husband from coming back to Ireland - for Christmas - or to live.

No visa required for your husband, so long as you have both your passports and your marriage cert. The airport Immigration Officer in Ireland cannot refuse your husband entry.

To quote Article 5(4) of Directive 2004/38/EC:

Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not
have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State
concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain
the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to
corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and
residence.

The same regulations apply when returning to Italy. Passport each + marriage cert in hand, they cannot refuse to land your husband.

[charles4u]

ciaramc,

There is absolutely nothing stopping you and your husband from coming back to Ireland - for Christmas - or to live.

No visa required for your husband, so long as you have both your passports and your marriage cert. The airport Immigration Officer in Ireland cannot refuse your husband entry.

To quote Article 5(4) of Directive 2004/38/EC:

Where a Union citizen, or a family member who is not a national of a Member State, does not
have the necessary travel documents or, if required, the necessary visas, the Member State
concerned shall, before turning them back, give such persons every reasonable opportunity to obtain
the necessary documents or have them brought to them within a reasonable period of time or to
corroborate or prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and
residence.

The same regulations apply when returning to Italy. Passport each + marriage cert in hand, they cannot refuse to land your husband.

Am sure u have the money to pay them if they get stocked at the airport cus I call the Ireland embassy here in Romania and says visa still required even having this residence card for family members with marriage certificate ofcourse, Yes u are right abt that directive but Ireland and the UK are not following that direct at the moment..PLS dont risk going as he doesnt even have a family permit(just a marraige certificate and wants to move around EU) well I dont think this is possible.

Atleast let him get a residence first then think of the next problem which is Ireland visa

[Ben]

Am sure u have the money to pay them if they get stocked at the airport cus I call the Ireland embassy here in Romania and says visa still required even having this residence card for family members with marriage certificate ofcourse, Yes u are right abt that directive but Ireland and the UK are not following that direct at the moment..PLS dont risk going as he doesnt even have a family permit(just a marraige certificate and wants to move around EU) well I dont think this is possible.

Atleast let him get a residence first then think of the next problem which is Ireland visa

charles4u,

This is utter tosh. It would be better if you only posted facts. Of course Ireland and the UK are following the Directive.

The Irish embassy may *request* the husband to have a visa / Residence Card, but they *cannot* refuse entry if he doesn't have either.

Please refer to Article 5(4) of Directive 2004/38/EC, as sited above.

[ciaramc]

Thanks for all th tips....charles thanks for the advise....but I have studied the EU/Irish/Italian law......I know how it works!

Benifra....I was thinking...actually I'm going to go to the Irish embassy here in Italy next week....and tell them I want to travel to Ireland with my husband.....lets see what they say.....


I wish it was a marriage of convience, I would have left all this crap long ago....I did not meet him this year , over the internet.....not that there is anything wrong with this....I know many friends the got married quite quickly as they were in love.....but I have known my husband for almost 8 years we are married almost three.....I have gone to Morocco to stay with his family....alone.....his has been apart of my family many years knows everybody....we celebrated our wedding here with mine and his family we have almost 8 years of proof!!! This I'm not worried about!


The problem is what are we going to do....Italy is never going to give him a residence permit.....Ireland is going to try get out of giving him a visa....we are stuc and just can't seem to get along with our life!!!

[charles4u]

We all know this Article and directive and you should know am pasting the facts here and even with proves.

They require a visa even for family members to go to Ireland, yes maybe an entry office might not refuse which nobody is sure but who knows even if the airline will even carry u. Pls try to understand and I guess u should Know by now UK and IRELAND are not following this directive by still requesting for a visa from family members but u said they are following the directive ..show me the prove they are..

[ciaramc]

We don't have big problem about money we can afford to move to Ireland and set our selfs up (I don't mean we are loaded) ....I just don't want to throw more and more money at lawyers in Italy....for nothing!

My husband has not seen his family in over 10 years no ones fault but his own I know....but we are done.....we have been so unlucky!!! We just want a chance at a normal life!! But it feels like we are battering our heads against a brick wall!

Charles I thought the English were refusing you because they think yours is a marriage of convience no??? Prove them wrong....slug it out a few more months in Romania show them proof you are truely married ....you have not been waiting that long in the grand scheme of things you met your wife in March married and applied for a visa all in less than a year.... get your self a job in Romania...save and set up a phone line with proof that you keep in contact with your wife regularly??? I mean thats what they want to see...you are right...about them assuming it is a marriage of convience as they have seen it many times Africans marrying Europeans just for documents believe me I know they all assume that about my husband and I even though we have been married years lived together over 6 years...we are young and in love and when people meet us they realise this....so prove them wrong show them that you just don't want a visa to Europe? No?

[charles4u]

We don't have big problem about money we can afford to move to Ireland and set our selfs up (I don't mean we are loaded) ....I just don't want to throw more and more money at lawyers in Italy....for nothing!

My husband has not seen his family in over 10 years noones faultt but bis own I know....but we are done.....we have been so unlucky!!! We just want achance at a normal life!!

This is the problems they are causing for family members just for there unreasonable reasons either marraige of convinience or what so ever.

Anyway I would advise you to just apply for the visa for him, he should get it easily since u said u have good financial prove(which I guess its what most of what this embassies want to see) and with ur marraige cert for 8yrs....surely he should get the visa

I wish u guys best of luck.

[Ben]

Benifra....I was thinking...actually I'm going to go to the Irish embassy here in Italy next week....and tell them I want to travel to Ireland with my husband.....lets see what they say.....

They will tell you he needs a visa.

Member States are entitled to request for visas, in accordance with national law. However, Immigration Officers are prohibited, in accordance with EU law, from refusing to grant entry to family members who can "prove by other means that they are covered by the right of free movement and
residence." (Article 5(4) of Directive 2004/38/EC).

Such proof is a passport each, plus marriage cert.

charles4u does make a valid point, however, on one count. That is, the hurdle of convincing the airline of your husband's entitlement to enter Ireland with you, sans visa.

[MAKUSA]

Hi all,

As you are all probably aware from my previous posts....I'm a EU citizen (Irish), living and working in Italy since 2002, when I met my husband (Moroccan, previously illegal in Italy).

We married in 2006 and applied or a RC(in 2006), him being the spouse of a EU citizen exercising treaty rights. We were turned down (in March 08), due to the fact (they stated this on the refusal) that he had entered Italy many years previously illeally!

We then appealed (also due to the court case against Ireland 25 July 08 )and today after 8 months they have refused his RC not for any reason in particular, but that we had not informed the minister of Interior of our case !!!!! Can you believe it??? I have not heard such nonsense in my life......we can now appeal to another judge!!! But I'm thinking is it worth it....should he go home to his home country and see can we apply from there??? We really don't want to do this as it will not look good that he never received his RC here in Italy and it could affect future applications???

What do you think? Also I have filed a complaint with the EU and received a responce in Sep 08 saying that my complaint was passed on to the relevant authority and since then nothing!

Is there anything else I can do??? Can I bring them to court??? European court???

My heart bleeds for you and your spouse.
But because he has an exclusion order in Italy then he would have to leave Italy and stay out for a next three years.


Article 32 of Directive 2004/38/EU:

Duration of exclusion orders

1. Persons excluded on grounds of public policy or public
security may submit an application for lifting of the exclusion
order after a reasonable period, depending on the circumstances,
and in any event after three years from enforcement of
the final exclusion order which has been validly adopted in
accordance with Community law, by putting forward arguments
to establish that there has been a material change in the circumstances
which justified the decision ordering their exclusion.

Why don't you guys go to another EU country (within the Schenghen area), you guys dont want to come to Ireland because the airlines would never allow you to board and no need going to the Irish Embassy (they wouldnt help because of his exclusion order), if you guys go back to Morroco then you might loose the directive protection.
My advice to you is to travel by road to any other Schenghen country (preferably Germany, Belgium etc) in Holland the law requires you to earn at least 1,500 Euros a month. Forget Ireland, UK, ITALY and Morroco.
Your destiny lies within the shenghen area.

[charles4u]

You words are funny First-Class Moron saying there destiny lies in SCHENGEN countries..anyway am so sure he will need visa but maybe with ur proves of being married for 8yrs and also with ur acct after all u said u r very ok financially so maybe with a good huge acct...its very possible to get the visa..but also Schengen countries is advisable cus UK and Ireland are messing up this days ..

Am sorry but this is the fact you have to admit, Romania sounds a little odd but no problems here getting residence if you have the main proves in which I see u have and u can just relocate back to wherever u want legally with all ur papers ok and its valid within the EU since is also a member even though the economy is slowly getting better....Its just an advise

[ciaramc]

Charles I'm not looking for an easy way to get my husband regularized in Europe I'm looking for the right way......which is difficult....but I do not want to move to Romania....I have an excellant job in Italy and will try to find a job when I get to Ireland!!! I was telling you to stick it out in Romania for a while longr make your appeal or re apply!

I'm not willing to start all again in another EU country I have also been away a long time and want to ge home....as does my husband....he is in for a bit of a shock when he ventually gets to Ireland he is used to the warm climate LOL.....

I have a right to bring my spouse with me but feel I can fight my battle better in my own country....I think maybe Morocco will be the way to go...we are tired of fighting this bttle here, just seems to be getting us no where....we have to start afresh!!! And believe me I plan on winning this!

[charles4u]

I will first say Amen u shall win...well if u read my words u will see I didnt say come settle in Romania ..just for him to have the legal papers....

The law as now changed in Ireland, for a family members to get a family residence permit, he or she must hold a residence in another EU country or atleast come to Ireland with a family visa in which if your husband apply... the embassy will surely ask for you husband's passport or if holding a residence permit in Italy to know if his legal or ilegal as at the time his applying for the visa...and this might lead to refusal(I guess u know why).

Well any battle u wanna fight wont be that easy but maybe Richard will have an option for a way out ...cus I dont know the system there in Italy.

[86ti]

Am sure u have the money to pay them if they get stocked at the airport cus I call the Ireland embassy here in Romania and says visa still required even having this residence card for family members with marriage certificate ofcourse, Yes u are right abt that directive but Ireland and the UK are not following that direct at the moment..PLS dont risk going as he doesnt even have a family permit(just a marraige certificate and wants to move around EU) well I dont think this is possible.

Atleast let him get a residence first then think of the next problem which is Ireland visa

charles4u,

This is utter tosh. It would be better if you only posted facts. Of course Ireland and the UK are following the Directive.

I am not quite sure what you are referring to here. The UK does not follow the Directive when it comes to acceptance of residence permits issued by other EEA member countries. Well, having said that there is a court case pending with ECJ to clarify this point.

[charles4u]

Well you said it already, UK doesnt accept another EU/EEA family member card. All still need an EEA family permit from their embassies which can still be refused.

Lets see how long it will take the EU court to clear this case..All eyes on them.

[Richard66]

There is absolutely nothing stopping you and your husband from coming back to Ireland - for Christmas - or to live.

There is: the girl at check-in at the airport.

The Irish embassy may *request* the husband to have a visa / Residence Card, but they *cannot* refuse entry if he doesn't have either.

The Embassies will confirm to you that this visa/EEA FP is not for the benefit of immigration: it is for the carrier. I can quote you an e-mail from the Rome Embassy where it says just that.

[charles4u]

So I guess my case was different and should I say bit stupid of me..

My case as u know my flight was today but didnt go cus of what u all said , The advise was cus I had an earlier refusal or cus I didnt have the courage enough to go to the UK with my permit ?

[Richard66]

Take a look at this, Ciaramc:

http://www.meltingpot.org/articolo13587.html

[Ben]

There is absolutely nothing stopping you and your husband from coming back to Ireland - for Christmas - or to live.

There is: the girl at check-in at the airport.

Of course. I have already said this. However, my comment (quoted above) was in relation to immigration law, not in relation to the lack of airport staff training.

The Irish embassy may *request* the husband to have a visa / Residence Card, but they *cannot* refuse entry if he doesn't have either.

The Embassies will confirm to you that this visa/EEA FP is not for the benefit of immigration: it is for the carrier. I can quote you an e-mail from the Rome Embassy where it says just that.

For the benefit of the carrier it may be, and that is a fair comment, from the British embassy in Rome. Nonetheless, it is not a requirement under EU law and Immigration Officers in the UK cannot refuse entry to someone who doesn't have an EEA FP, providing they have other means of proof that they are a family member eligible to benefit from the provisions of the Directive.